Round 2, Vote 10 (HOH Top Centers)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Although I kind of agree.. if Datsyuk stops the attack in the neutral zone it never gets to the point where the individual matchup matters.

Of course. Definitely not saying Datsyuk's ability to disrupt the opposition in the neutral zone is worthless in the playoffs.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Thanks. I'm sure your number is accurate. I don't have a spreadsheet full of data, so I had to calculate Malkin's number from scratch and probably made a minor rounding error somewhere

Out of curiosity, how high does Malkin go if you pretend 2013-14 ends today? He's currently sitting at 11th in NHL scoring (3rd in PPG, but use his total scoring number). Does 2013-14 change Datsyuk at all? I realize this is projecting the future somewhat, but:

1) Teams have played between 44 and 48 games each, basically as long as a lockout season or WW2 era NHL season, so it's a decent sample

2) Malkin and Datsyuk each missed about 10 games in the first half of the season, so this form of "projection" would assume they would miss games at the same pace through the full season... basically I find it unlikely to give them too much credit.

Like I said before, I don't think Malkin should be given full credit for 2013-14, but IMO, he should be given SOME credit, since with a bit more than half the season down, he is on pace for his 4th best season ever.

Using the second place 56 points, Datsyuk has a score of 57.14, and Malkin has a score of 82.14.

Datsyuk's 7 year score doesn't change and his 10 year score goes up to 76.6, only a change in the decimal.

Malkin's scores change much more, his 7 year score becomes 86.6 and 10 year score becomes 68.4

 

[tarheelhockey]

Here's my one problem with Datsyuk's defensive reputation, when the Red Wings wanted to shut down Crosby in 2009 it was Zeterberg matched against him. Datsyuk won his second Selke that year, yet Babcock felt his teammate was a better choice for this role. Is this a legitimate knock against Datsyuk's defensive reputation?

Also, and I only know this because of the discussion from last round, Zetterberg was matched against Thornton in 2011.

It would be interesting, though probably very time consuming, to go back and see how Babcock handled matchups in each of their playoff series together.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Using the second place 56 points, Datsyuk has a score of 57.14, and Malkin has a score of 82.14.

Datsyuk's 7 year score doesn't change and his 10 year score goes up to 76.6, only a change in the decimal.

Malkin's scores change much more, his 7 year score becomes 86.6 and 10 year score becomes 68.4

Thanks. So Malkin is on-pace to pass Lindros (and several other players) in 7-year VsX score by the end of this season and to actually end up 3rd of the guys available this round. Caveats about projecting apply of course, but I think they apply a little less given the fact that the projection is already taking some missed games into account.

He'll still be behind most of the pack in terms of 10-year score if you care about such things.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Syd Howe

I am a huge Howe fan, and I don't think I'd vote him in this round. He's be fairly close, though. I imagine I'd put him about 35th on a wingers list.

Wingers if combined in the 20-25 range, LW - with Joliat, Blake in the mix for top 5 pre 1950, so 10ish overall.

Center, definitely ahead of Sid Abel who also played LW and is already ranked.

 

[steve141]

Here's my one problem with Datsyuk's defensive reputation, when the Red Wings wanted to shut down Crosby in 2009 it was Zeterberg matched against him. Datsyuk won his second Selke that year, yet Babcock felt his teammate was a better choice for this role. Is this a legitimate knock against Datsyuk's defensive reputation?

I think the common view is that Datsyuk is better at defending the offensive/neutral zone, whereas Zetterberg is better in the defensive zone. Datsyuk's primary weapon is his stick, whereas Zetterberg's is his positioning.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This is exactly what I find slightly unsettling about the criticism of Larionov's role on KLM. He was obviously not going to rank 1st in scoring very often on THAT line. It's similar to the positions of Delvecchio and Oates on their lines during their scoring prime. I'd rather know where he ranked in relation to Soviet centers as a whole.


RS, thanks for providing the scouting report info on Perreault.

If Francis's offense was downgraded in Pittsburgh because he played with Jagr, how much should Larionov's performance in Russia be attributed to his linemates?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

^ but are makarov and krutov really the same thing as jagr (and mario on the PP)?

 

[BillyShoe1721]

If Francis's offense was downgraded in Pittsburgh because he played with Jagr, how much should Larionov's performance in Russia be attributed to his linemates?

^ but are makarov and krutov really the same thing as jagr (and mario on the PP)?

They're definitely not the same, but the fact that Larionov was outscored by both guys on a pretty regular basis does say something.

Here's my one problem with Datsyuk's defensive reputation, when the Red Wings wanted to shut down Crosby in 2009 it was Zeterberg matched against him. Datsyuk won his second Selke that year, yet Babcock felt his teammate was a better choice for this role. Is this a legitimate knock against Datsyuk's defensive reputation?

Regarding Datsyuk/Zetterberg vs. Crosby: Is it possible that Babcock wanted to match Zetterberg against Crosby, and Datsyuk against Malkin? Did he see something stylistically that gave them an advantage? Or did he think Malkin was the bigger threat? Malkin outscored Crosby in a raw and per-game basis in both the regular season and playoffs in that season.

Looking at Behind the Net, these are the top opponents for Crosby & Malkin

Crosby: Lidstrom, Rafalski, Zetterberg, Cleary, ?
Malkin: Stuart, Kronwall, Filppula, Hossa, ?

In both cases, we aren't sure who the last forward was on those Detroit lines that faced them. Edit:

Datsyuk also did not play in Games 1-4, he had a foot injury, and returned for Game 5. So his foot surely was not completely healed and Babcock may not have wanted to put him up against Crosby on a bad tire?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

They're definitely not the same, but the fact that Larionov was outscored by both guys on a pretty regular basis does say something.




Regarding Datsyuk/Zetterberg vs. Crosby: Is it possible that Babcock wanted to match Zetterberg against Crosby, and Datsyuk against Malkin? Did he see something stylistically that gave them an advantage? Or did he think Malkin was the bigger threat? Malkin outscored Crosby in a raw and per-game basis in both the regular season and playoffs in that season.

Looking at Behind the Net, these are the top opponents for Crosby & Malkin

Crosby: Lidstrom, Rafalski, Zetterberg, Cleary, ?
Malkin: Stuart, Kronwall, Filppula, Hossa, ?

In both cases, we aren't sure who the last forward was on those Detroit lines that faced them. Edit:

Datsyuk also did not play in Games 1-4, he had a foot injury, and returned for Game 5. So his foot surely was not completely healed and Babcock may not have wanted to put him up against Crosby on a bad tire?

Zetterberg/Lidstrom vs Crosby was the key matchup in both the 2008 and 2009 finals.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

They're definitely not the same, but the fact that Larionov was outscored by both guys on a pretty regular basis does say something.

i don't believe the intensive analysis of larionov's CSKA career has been done yet.

so open questions to people who know these things, because i really don't--

how much can we attribute larionov's low points totals relative to krutov and makarov to:

(a) fewer assists given in soviet league? (if this is indeed a fact; i feel like i've heard that there was no secondary assist, or that they were given out far more judiciously than in the NHL?)

(b) his role within the soviet system? (again, i've heard/read things, but i don't really know if they're myths or reality; but my understanding is that soviet scoring is usually done by wingers, as opposed to the center, who was more of a transition guy)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

out of the "full career scorers" who weren't major factors defensively, I'l thinking it goes:

Oates
Ratelle
Perreault
Hawerchuk

and Perreault's numbers are such that I should have him last, but there's that perception factor he seems to have compared to Dale.

I could be compelled to put Ratelle ahead of Oates too. There are two good reasons:

- He's only marginally behind in VsX, but way more of his points were goals. He was top-20 in goals 7 times (despite being often called a playmaker)
- He was actually a bit of a factor defensively, more than any of these other three... wasn't he?

I think I'll have Hooley and Delvecchio 1/2 this round, and the above 4 likely in that order somewhere. Larionov last, and Lindros ahead of Malkin by 2-3 spots. Datsyuk.... probably in between those two. Bowie? Who the hell knows.

The case for Perreault over Ratelle:

• They were basically contemporaries and Perreault's All-Star record (2 2nd Teams, 3 3rd Teams) kills Ratelle's (one 2nd Team).
• Ratelle basically spent his entire career playing with one of the top offensive defensemen of all-time in Brad Park, which could go a long way towards explaining the difference in the raw statistics. When Ratelle was traded from NY to Boston, it was with Park. Buffalo did not have anything close to Park on the blueline.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Zetterberg/Lidstrom vs Crosby was the key matchup in both the 2008 and 2009 finals.

That's curious. Zetterberg's most common linemate in the 07-08 playoffs was Datsyuk. Intuition says Datsyuk would be at center and Zetterberg at left wing where he's played a lot, and their third linemates was Holmstrom, a wing. But, a look at faceoff numbers shows Zetterberg took 368 draws those playoffs, and Datsyuk just 121. Going further, Zetterberg took 114 faceoffs in the finals, and Datsyuk took 35. The only time Zetterberg and Datsyuk appear to have not been on the same line was the Game 6 where Datsyuk took 19 draws, and Zetterberg took 22. Zetterberg was the center, for sure.

 

[Hardyvan123]

i'm not going to be posting from home again until monday, so no long tables from me until then.

But where's all the love for Hooley Smith coming from? I realize he has one of the best awards record of anyone available, and we've been kind of slow at adding guys from his era.

But offensively, he's worse in than everyone added so far except Keon, and while the Hooligan was very good defensively, I got the impression he was in the "next best" tier of defensive players, not the super-duper-awesome defense class that Keon (and arguably Fedorov) were in.

But the big difference between Hooley and Keon(and Fedorov or Gilmour)? They were playoff legends. Hooley is a basically a playoff no-show, at least statistically. 19 points in 54 playoff games is terrible, no matter the era. Edit: Unlike his scoring, Hooley picked up his PIMs pace in the playoffs - from 1.42 PIM per regular season game to 2.02 PIM per playoff game.

I'm open to the case for Hooley, but those are some pretty big obstacles he must overcome.

Basically this, the love for Smith over over stronger candidates this round is extremely puzzling.

also my work schedule makes it extremely unlikely that I can vote on the weekend unless a day off comes up, which I hope it doesn't. I will once again be sending in an early vote with the hope that i can amend it closer to the deadline.

when we still have player who were, at some point of their careers , in the mix for best player in the world status, doesn't that count for alot?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Agreed.

Seems like Larionov gets credit for simply having an NHL career.

Shouldn't a player get credit for being a very good one for a long time, considering his age in the best league in the world?

The guy was alot more than his stats, dido for Dats.

 

[Hardyvan123]

A good point can be made that Smith is actually the best defensive forward of the current group, followed by Datsyuk.

Eh, I don't know about that

I agree, it's hard to argue that smith is better defensively than Dats IMO.

will read through the thread to see what it is though.

 

[Sonic Disturbance]

I watched every game of the Penguins 2009 playoffs. Datsyuk did not play in games 1-4 but when he returned in game 5, he played on Zetterberg's wing against Crosby.

 

[MXD]

I agree, it's hard to argue that smith is better defensively than Dats IMO.

will read through the thread to see what it is though.

How exactly is this hard to argue?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

when we still have player who were, at some point of their careers , in the mix for best player in the world status, doesn't that count for alot?

There's one more aboard the Russell Bowie train...

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think Ratelle deserves to be in this round.



Nalyd did a pretty good job on this bio:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=59322353&postcount=60



I've always been very underwhelmed by his NHL resume, and combine the fact that he was the least talented member of the Soviet line that made him famous, I'm not seeing it. He might have been the glue that made it work, but glue guys do not belong here. Petrov is much more deserving.

sure the case for smith is going to be his ATD rep right? Let's evaluate him fairly along with the rest of the guys here, his playoffs are underwhelming, even for a guy in this part of the project.

Igor was more than just glue, he is being judged scoring wise much like a midfielder to strikers in soccer, sure Makarov had a better peak NHL career but Igor also lost out in soviet scoring which rewarded goal scoring and not play makers or responsible defensive play.

 

[tarheelhockey]

when we still have player who were, at some point of their careers , in the mix for best player in the world status, doesn't that count for alot?

It depends on what you mean by "in the mix", and how long it was sustained. But yes, it is certainly a factor now that we're down to players who were generally not at that level.

I'm assuming we're talking about Datsyuk, Malkin, Lindros and Bowie in that category?

 

[Hardyvan123]

How exactly is this hard to argue?

league competiton, actually having accurate data for starters?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Datsyuk was a 2nd Team All Star once and a 3rd Team All Star once. He finished 3rd in Hart voting at his best, and it wasn't really a close 3rd. He was also the 3rd best player on his team in the playoffs when he won the Cup in 2008. How is that in the mix for best in the world?

 

[MXD]

league competiton, actually having accurate data for starters?

Hooley Smith faced one of Eddie Shore or Howie Morenz in its prime for roughly 1/3 of his games. I think this qualifies as "good competition", considering those are amongst the Top-11 players of all time.

 

[MXD]

Datsyuk was a 2nd Team All Star just once and finished 3rd in Hart voting at his best. He was also the 3rd best player on his team in the playoffs when he won the Cup in 2008. How is that in the mix for best in the world?

Perception. Eye-test. General underratedness.

Not sure he was the best player in the world at any point, but that's only my opinion. No source, just something I heard quite a bit over the years.