Roster Moves: Roster Thread Talk 2021: it never ends

[deadhead]

I'm glad you're able to contain your negativity. I'm glad you're excited about this 'aspect'. There was a time when this organization got the benefit of the doubt. But for 10 years they've demonstrated a trend of making poor decisions and making the roster worse to cater to the casual fan. Getting rid of skill players to acquire "big and heavy", is the definition if pandering to the local desire to have "Flyers hockey". This team isn't run to be a competitive team anymore. It's run to be a marketing machine(Hellloooooooo Cevin Hayes) and promote revenue growth- thats my issue.

P.s. your side rant about calling you on boomer/strawman was a nice touch of hypocrisy. I dig it.

A bit of hyperbole?

2011-12 was the last hurrah of the Holmgren roster building method, which basically relied on the ability to outspend all but 4 or 5 teams. Trading Carter and Richards for Couts, Simmons, Schenn and Voracek could have been the basis of a 3-5 year rebuild, but Holmgren didn't have the stomach to blow it up. He limped along for three more years before Hextall was put in charge. But the damage was done.

2014-2018 was the Hextall era, while he wasn't able to do a "slash and burn" rebuild, he did trade Kimmo, Coburn, Schenn for picks, dumped a lot of veterans and rebuilt the talent pipeline. While he had his hits and misses, for the most part he rebuilt the talent base. But because they didn't crater and land a couple "superstars" (see NJ, Buffalo for how tenuous that process can be) it was a 7 year process (i.e. it's taken that long to hit critical mass), but they did make the POs a couple times.

2019-2021, Fletcher arrives and tries to balance continuing the rebuild with a "win now" mandate.
He's basically moved out the disappointments, talented players who due to injury or other factors haven't lived up to their potential, Ghost, Patrick and Myers. He's traded some draft picks, #13, (3) 2nds, a 3rd, but no serious prospects.

Roster changes 2018-2021 (after Fletcher took over):
Gone: Voracek, Patrick, Weise, Simmonds, Raffl, Weal, Lehtera, Myers, Ghost, Gudas, Hagg, MacDonald
Added: Hayes, Atkinson, Brassard, Thompson, Ellis, Risto, Braun, Yandle
Promoted: Farabee, Allison, NAK (Frost, Laczynski, York, Zamula)

 

[Starat327]

Saying "this isn't baseball where every event is separate. Hockey is such a fluid game and it's impossible for any stat to capture everything" or whatever is just like saying "it's just the flu" in September 2021. That ship has long sailed

There's no other way, DP.

Every event in hockey is completely separate from the one that precedes it and follows it.

Roster building however, only has one path.

 

[Beef Invictus]

A bit of hyperbole?

2011-12 was the last hurrah of the Holmgren roster building method, which basically relied on the ability to outspend all but 4 or 5 teams. Trading Carter and Richards for Couts, Simmons, Schenn and Voracek could have been the basis of a 3-5 year rebuild, but Holmgren didn't have the stomach to blow it up. He limped along for three more years before Hextall was put in charge. But the damage was done.

2014-2018 was the Hextall era, while he wasn't able to do a "slash and burn" rebuild, he did trade Kimmo, Coburn, Schenn for picks, dumped a lot of veterans and rebuilt the talent pipeline. While he had his hits and misses, for the most part he rebuilt the talent base. But because they didn't crater and land a couple "superstars" (see NJ, Buffalo for how tenuous that process can be) it was a 7 year process (i.e. it's taken that long to hit critical mass), but they did make the POs a couple times.

2019-2021, Fletcher arrives and tries to balance continuing the rebuild with a "win now" mandate.
He's basically moved out the disappointments, talented players who due to injury or other factors haven't lived up to their potential, Ghost, Patrick and Myers. He's traded some draft picks, #13, (3) 2nds, a 3rd, but no serious prospects.

Roster changes 2018-2021 (after Fletcher took over):
Gone: Voracek, Patrick, Weise, Simmonds, Raffl, Weal, Lehtera, Myers, Ghost, Gudas, Hagg, MacDonald
Added: Hayes, Atkinson, Brassard, Thompson, Ellis, Risto, Braun, Yandle
Promoted: Farabee, Allison, NAK (Frost, Laczynski, York, Zamula)

You're right, there is no trend of bad decisions, that's why the team has steadily gotten better and better since 2011 instead of drowning in mediocrity.

 

[flyerslducks]

subban does not cost two 2nds right now where the hell did you get that valuation? NJD has to eat his salary AND pay someone to take him probably. This isn't the JVR scenario we will have next year when we will try to move him. JVR provides offense and is actually useful. Subban hasn't done shit with the devils

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Listening to Therien's first episode as a member of Snow The Goalie. I sure did miss his fire last year. The game day broadcast crew is vanilla af.

Couple highlights from Therien's perspective -

• Gritty *cannot* be the face of the franchise going forward, as in, if he's the most exciting thing about the franchise, we're in trouble.
• Any hope of success this year starts with #79 having a rebound year. He doesn't need to be great, but he does need to be solid and reliable.

DEFENSE

• Provorov is not and never will be a #1, but he can certainly play on a top pairing. Niskanen and Provorov was a solid top pair, and he thinks Ellis can raise Provy's game in the same way.
• Getting rid of Myers was the right move. Doesn't believe he has much more upside to his game. Hockey IQ too low. Thinks the game at a low level.
• Ristolainen: Admire his compete level but he's never once seen him get better than the first few games he saw as a rookie in the 6 years since. He's still playing like a rookie. Could be because of the absolute disaster of the Buffalo organization. Love his compete level, love how hard he hits, but don't want to see him skate 12 feet in the wrong direction to make a hit and leave the ice open for a 2 on 1 against.
• "What do you make about the 7 other teams interested in Risto?" He's a classic restoration/reclamation project. The only reason they got him was because they offered the highest 1st round pick. I hope he gets better, because he's got a lot of sandpaper to his game. Dahlin's been mediocre too, so it could very well be a Buffalo thing.
• (They skipped right over Yandle lol but later mentioned how he might end up being a great acquisition for Hayes given what he's going through right now)

FORWARDS

• Atkinson for Voracek. Atkinson is a class act, great locker room guy. But trade made no sense other than the numbers matching, as in, why did the Jackets give up Atkinson to acquire Voracek? Seems too good to be true from the Flyers perspective.
• Thompson, it's fine. He just does his job, you know what you're gonna get. PKer, depth guy.
• Brassard, gives the Flyers another layer of a guy who's been around, knows his role, smart player.

GOALIES

• Jones, seems to be more about financials. Why not go for Hotlby instead? There is a lack of goaltending depth in this league. Is Jones a mentor now? Another reclamation project?
• Elliott played way more games than he was told he was expected to play because Hart was so bad. Affected the balance and dynamic.
• Nothing else matters unless the team's goalies get back to a reliable level.
• Russ: Would not be surprised if, come January, Jones is the starter and Hart is the backup.
• Hart did not earn his contract.
• Not 100% convinced this is a playoff team.

ROOKIES

Which player is more likely to make a meaningful impact on this team this season? York or Frost?

• ASF: York. Yandle's situation here is a bit more tenuous than some of the forwards. They see York as less than a year away from being ready. Far more important of a role than Frost.
• Therien: Frost would have to be at least a 3rd liner. Poor fit for a 4th line. But for York and Frost, will be tough to find enough minutes for them to be successful.

Who plays more games for the Flyers this season? Allison or NAK?

• Therien: Allison. 100%. Not even sure the team likes NAK. He's one of those guys they see a bit of potential, but feel like coaches get really annoyed with him.
• ASF: Allison. For NAK, it would help his game if he's paired with veteran guys, not young/rookie types. Get the AHL/laziness out of his game. They want to give it one more shot with him. Allison seems like a versatile guy, can play with skill guys and even on a checking/bottom six role. That versatility will get him more games than NAK.

so no chat about the horrific return of the trio of shit coaching staff and systems ?

 

[FlyerNutter]

Listening to Therien's first episode as a member of Snow The Goalie. I sure did miss his fire last year. The game day broadcast crew is vanilla af.

Couple highlights from Therien's perspective -

• Gritty *cannot* be the face of the franchise going forward, as in, if he's the most exciting thing about the franchise, we're in trouble.
• Any hope of success this year starts with #79 having a rebound year. He doesn't need to be great, but he does need to be solid and reliable.

DEFENSE

• Provorov is not and never will be a #1, but he can certainly play on a top pairing. Niskanen and Provorov was a solid top pair, and he thinks Ellis can raise Provy's game in the same way.
• Getting rid of Myers was the right move. Doesn't believe he has much more upside to his game. Hockey IQ too low. Thinks the game at a low level.
• Ristolainen: Admire his compete level but he's never once seen him get better than the first few games he saw as a rookie in the 6 years since. He's still playing like a rookie. Could be because of the absolute disaster of the Buffalo organization. Love his compete level, love how hard he hits, but don't want to see him skate 12 feet in the wrong direction to make a hit and leave the ice open for a 2 on 1 against.
• "What do you make about the 7 other teams interested in Risto?" He's a classic restoration/reclamation project. The only reason they got him was because they offered the highest 1st round pick. I hope he gets better, because he's got a lot of sandpaper to his game. Dahlin's been mediocre too, so it could very well be a Buffalo thing.
• (They skipped right over Yandle lol but later mentioned how he might end up being a great acquisition for Hayes given what he's going through right now)

FORWARDS

• Atkinson for Voracek. Atkinson is a class act, great locker room guy. But trade made no sense other than the numbers matching, as in, why did the Jackets give up Atkinson to acquire Voracek? Seems too good to be true from the Flyers perspective.
• Thompson, it's fine. He just does his job, you know what you're gonna get. PKer, depth guy.
• Brassard, gives the Flyers another layer of a guy who's been around, knows his role, smart player.

GOALIES

• Jones, seems to be more about financials. Why not go for Hotlby instead? There is a lack of goaltending depth in this league. Is Jones a mentor now? Another reclamation project?
• Elliott played way more games than he was told he was expected to play because Hart was so bad. Affected the balance and dynamic.
• Nothing else matters unless the team's goalies get back to a reliable level.
• Russ: Would not be surprised if, come January, Jones is the starter and Hart is the backup.
• Hart did not earn his contract.
• Not 100% convinced this is a playoff team.

ROOKIES

Which player is more likely to make a meaningful impact on this team this season? York or Frost?

• ASF: York. Yandle's situation here is a bit more tenuous than some of the forwards. They see York as less than a year away from being ready. Far more important of a role than Frost.
• Therien: Frost would have to be at least a 3rd liner. Poor fit for a 4th line. But for York and Frost, will be tough to find enough minutes for them to be successful.

Who plays more games for the Flyers this season? Allison or NAK?

• Therien: Allison. 100%. Not even sure the team likes NAK. He's one of those guys they see a bit of potential, but feel like coaches get really annoyed with him.
• ASF: Allison. For NAK, it would help his game if he's paired with veteran guys, not young/rookie types. Get the AHL/laziness out of his game. They want to give it one more shot with him. Allison seems like a versatile guy, can play with skill guys and even on a checking/bottom six role. That versatility will get him more games than NAK.

He’s right about Hart.

It’s imo a stupid risk to go into next season just assuming the kid rebounds, with Martin Jones as the safety net.

Rebounds with the same HC, and goaltending coach.

 

[deadhead]

You're right, there is no trend of bad decisions, that's why the team has steadily gotten better and better since 2011 instead of drowning in mediocrity.

It has gotten steadily better since 2016, only the goalie issue has kept them from being a consistent playoff team.
Just look at the dreck Fletcher shipped out of town since 2018.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It has gotten steadily better since 2016, only the goalie issue has kept them from being a consistent playoff team.
Just look at the dreck Fletcher shipped out of town since 2018.

Yeah, that's not true at all.

 

[deadhead]

He’s right about Hart.

It’s imo a stupid risk to go into next season just assuming the kid rebounds, with Martin Jones as the safety net.

Rebounds with the same HC, and goaltending coach.

Always depends on the available options.
Grubauer was too expensive, 6yr/$35.4M
Rask had hip surgery
Mrazek, 3yr/$11.4M, be there, done that
Bernier, 2yr/$7M, he's 33, solid #2 but only started 23 games last year, +0.13
F Anderson, unsigned, +0.65
Halak, 1yr/$1.5M + 1.5M bonus, 36 years old, +0.50, on the downhill slide
Ranta, 2yr/$4M, 32 years old, only played 11 games last year


Not a lot of great options, Bernier was the best but you have to hope he doesn't fall off the proverbial cliff.

 

[Domino666]

All this arguing means nothing because the shitty coaching staff is coming back, unless Martini Al actually has a functional system this team will drown again unless Hart does a complete 180 and plays all year lights out, but yeah AV blows, MT should be shot into space he’s horrid, the PP if left alone could be so much better than the stupid shit they have been trying to feed us as fans, I would love to be excited again about Flyers hockey but the coaches f***ing blow, and that’s being nice about it

 

[Adtar02]

Wish we had stats that adjusted relative to a team. Maybe next decade.

The most wonderful part will be if the best play driving defenseman on the team lifts Risto’s numbers to respectability , and then we get that thrown in our faces that he’s not actually bad! See! While giving no credit to his partner.

God forbid we compare against the team that plays the same system. Let’s only compare against different systems. Statistics 101. Use different samples sets to prove your point. Or ignore simple stats cause they go against your point.

 

[deadhead]

Wish we had stats that adjusted relative to a team. Maybe next decade.

The most wonderful part will be if the best play driving defenseman on the team lifts Risto’s numbers to respectability , and then we get that thrown in our faces that he’s not actually bad! See! While giving no credit to his partner.

No, it'll be when the big stiff D-man takes the pressure off the play driving defenseman in the D-zone, improving his xGA and making him look better than he really is and we can't afford to extend him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No, it'll be when the big stiff D-man takes the pressure off the play driving defenseman in the D-zone, improving his xGA and making him look better than he really is and we can't afford to extend him.

Ristolainen is famous for increasing pressure due to his inability to defend or suppress anything at all more than three feet from the crease.

So no, your scenario won't happen.

 

[Adtar02]

Risto. Has not been good in Buffalo. Period flat out bad. Big disappointment for them. Could he get better here maybe. More data suggests he won’t but there are a few who have broken this trend of a player who has been bad for 500 plus games. So it’s possible but unlikely. Do I want the near impossible to happen Yes yes I do. Do I expect a player to change his game 500 plus in. No.

I had more confidence that Patrick would be a player that we hoped fo than Risto suddenly becoming what he’s never been. Look at their ages and games played. And most of the Risto advocates thought Patrick was a bust

 

[Magua]

No, it'll be when the big stiff D-man takes the pressure off the play driving defenseman in the D-zone, improving his xGA and making him look better than he really is and we can't afford to extend him.

Can you post Ristolainen’s defensive metrics that show he’s good at suppressing chances?

 

[flyersnorth]

so no chat about the horrific return of the trio of shit coaching staff and systems ?

ASF said that at the end of the season, he asked AV three times in succession whether or not he'd be back next year (not sure if he was hinting he may get fired?), and AV dodged the question. Which is a strange, dick question to ask anyway.

Therien (IIRC) said that, if you look at the moves Chuck made and the guys he brought in, AV definitely had a hand in shaping that direction. So, it's AV's team and Fletch's team now without question.. so we will see whether they pan out.

 

[Starat327]

Can you post Ristolainen’s defensive metrics that show he’s good at suppressing chances?

Something something bad team something fresh start

...as if AVs system is going to help him become any more defensively responsible. Hell, our lord and savior Provorov has looked terrible in this system. What hope does Risto have, other than playing with the teams best D man?

 

[Asnito]

ASF said that at the end of the season, he asked AV three times in succession whether or not he'd be back next year (not sure if he was hinting he may get fired?), and AV dodged the question. Which is a strange, dick question to ask anyway.

Therien (IIRC) said that, if you look at the moves Chuck made and the guys he brought in, AV definitely had a hand in shaping that direction. So, it's AV's team and Fletch's team now without question.. so we will see whether they pan out.

They're going to do everything they can to save their jobs even if it means screwing up the Flyers future.

 

[flyersnorth]

They're going to do everything they can to save their jobs even if it means screwing up the Flyers future.

I mean, I'm not convinced that the "future" we had 2 months ago was any better than the "future" we have now.

 

[BleedOrange]

I know why I stay away from these boards its the constant whinning armchair GMs who think they know better.

 

[TB87]

Can you post Ristolainen’s defensive metrics that show he’s good at suppressing chances?

So good defense. Big good at the defense.

 

[Starat327]

View attachment 463821



So good defense. Big good at the defense.

He iS bIg aNd cLeArS the CreASe

 

[Asnito]

I mean, I'm not convinced that the "future" we had 2 months ago was any better than the "future" we have now.

It isn't. The question is how many assets will the next GM have to work with. If we're in the playoff hunt at the TDL next years 1st is definitely on the table.

 

[Rebels57]

View attachment 463821



So good defense. Big good at the defense.

Hey at least the left side of the crease looks worse than his side? I dunno lol

 

[Bigkarl]

I know why I stay away from these boards its the constant whinning armchair GMs who think they know better.

OH NOOO!!!! PLEASSSSEEEEE COME BACKKKKK