Roster Moves: Roster Thread Talk 2021: it never ends

[Beef Invictus]

Over the last 3 seasons, Ristolainen is 12th among all NHL defensemen in primary assists.

That puts him above players like Chabot, Petry, Doughty, Suter, Theodore, Girard, Giordano, Ekholm, & Hamilton.

I’m sure many of those A1s were on the PP, but same goes for everyone above & around him.

Point is, Hagg is a very poor comparison. Ristolainen has much more offensive ability. He’s also meaner, & the Flyers needed to add meanness on D.

We’ll see how he plays defensively, but he sure won’t be worse than Myers in that regard, while bringing more skill & a better physical presence.

We know how he is defensively; the worst relative to everyone else on his team, and so atrocious that he more than cancels out any offensive production. He's also not entering a team that runs any kind of coherent defensive system. He may actually have less support than he did in Buffalo.

Again: there is no mystery box here.

 

[deadhead]

This is silly talk. A new team gives you a magic reset button. It means you revert to prospect status and all your previous potential has the ability to be realized again.


Kidding aside, I wouldn't be surprised if Risto looks better than he did in Buffalo. He's going to have a much better team around him (as a whole) and play with a much better defenseman than he's played with previously. Quality of teammates is immensely important and he'll get an upgrade in that department.

That said, anyone expecting him to come in and magically become a top pair d man (and make no mistake, that's the price we paid), is blindly wishing. I don't want Risto to fail, but having the mindset that he's going to come in and suddenly become what he was supposed to be is setting yourself up for failure. We have 8 years of data to guide us to this decision. We don't need to rely on blind faith and hope.

Well, we overpaid, but not sure we overpaid by as much as presumed.
2nd pair D-men as rentals cost a 2nd and 3rd for 0ver 30 players with no upside and significant downside.
A gamble like Subban with salary to boot (a negative given his age and health) cost (2) 2nds.

If the Flyers concluded that the draft was so bad that #13 was more like #23 in most drafts, then they overpaid, but not by a huge margin. For one thing, there are no longer conditional picks where you can give a 2nd that becomes a 1st if you resign the player. So they gave up the equivalent in their eyes of a late first rd pick rather than a second 2nd rd pick.

The 2nd paid to dump Ghost is irrelevant, b/c that was the price, they had tried to dump him for a year. As other deals showed, that was the going rate. That cap room was going to be used, whether for Risto or other players.

Now if you expect Risto to be a first pair D-man, you're likely to be disappointed.
If you hope Risto is an upgrade over Myers/Braun as the 2nd pair D-man, you have a better shot at happiness.
I'll withhold judgement for now, and see how he performs with his new team.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

We know how he is defensively; the worst relative to everyone else on his team, and so atrocious that he more than cancels out any offensive production. He's also not entering a team that runs any kind of coherent defensive system. He may actually have less support than he did in Buffalo.

Again: there is no mystery box here.

You're treating extremely flawed metrics as indisputable evaluations of defensive play.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You're treating extremely flawed metrics as indisputable evaluations of defensive play.

Bad news: the eye test easily confirms the metrics. We saw a lot of him last year. His results were the worst among his peers, and he looked the worst too. You don't even need to consult the predictive stuff; the numbers that merely count what happened while he was playing are all bad.

More bad news: the system stuff I mentioned isn't metrics based either.

All these arguments were used to explain why MacDonald would be fine in Philly as they hoped he would magically reinvent himself. Why are people falling for this again?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Well, we overpaid, but not sure we overpaid by as much as presumed.
2nd pair D-men as rentals cost a 2nd and 3rd for 0ver 30 players with no upside and significant downside.
A gamble like Subban with salary to boot (a negative given his age and health) cost (2) 2nds.

If the Flyers concluded that the draft was so bad that #13 was more like #23 in most drafts, then they overpaid, but not by a huge margin. For one thing, there are no longer conditional picks where you can give a 2nd that becomes a 1st if you resign the player. So they gave up the equivalent in their eyes of a late first rd pick rather than a second 2nd rd pick.

The 2nd paid to dump Ghost is irrelevant, b/c that was the price, they had tried to dump him for a year. As other deals showed, that was the going rate. That cap room was going to be used, whether for Risto or other players.

Now if you expect Risto to be a first pair D-man, you're likely to be disappointed.
If you hope Risto is an upgrade over Myers/Braun as the 2nd pair D-man, you have a better shot at happiness.
I'll withhold judgement for now, and see how he performs with his new team.

Considering Risto has been bottom pair (downright bottom of the league) quality for many years and it's not likely he has enough upside left to dramatically improve, I don't see why a second pair dman cost is a good comparison. He's not that level.

 

[Starat327]

Bad news: the eye test easily confirms the metrics. We saw a lot of him last year. His results were the worst among his peers, and he looked the worst too. You don't even need to consult the predictive stuff; the numbers that merely count what happened while he was playing are all bad.

More bad news: the system stuff I mentioned isn't metrics based either.

All these arguments were used to explain why MacDonald would be fine in Philly as they hoped he would magically reinvent himself. Why are people falling for this again?

It really is an odd coincidence that the same people who used to point to Ghost's/point to Sanheims +/- are willing gloss over the fact thst Ristolainen has never once been a positive +/- player in his entire professional career.

Weird how that works. If I didn't know any better, one might say there's an agenda.

 

[DancingPanther]

Well, we overpaid, but not sure we overpaid by as much as presumed.
2nd pair D-men as rentals cost a 2nd and 3rd for 0ver 30 players with no upside and significant downside.

Here's the problem and there's no getting around it: Fisto doesn't play like a 2nd pair defenseman. He hardly plays like a 3rd pair defenseman.

The acquisition is laughably indefensible

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Bad news: the eye test easily confirms the metrics. We saw a lot of him last year. His results were the worst among his peers, and he looked the worst too. You don't even need to consult the predictive stuff; the numbers that merely count what happened while he was playing are all bad.

More bad news: the system stuff I mentioned isn't metrics based either.

All these arguments were used to explain why MacDonald would be fine in Philly as they hoped he would magically reinvent himself. Why are people falling for this again?

its hilarous how he goes from polishing Haggturd right onto Risto..

 

[deadhead]

We'll see. That's why they play the games, otherwise we could just use one of those predictive models and give the Cup to the team that has the highest scoring roster.

 

[Chinatown88]

Here's the problem and there's no getting around it: Fisto doesn't play like a 2nd pair defenseman. He hardly plays like a 3rd pair defenseman.

The acquisition is laughably indefensible

 

[DancingPanther]

How many weeks until it's "Ristolainen is performing the role he is expected to play quite admirably?"

 

[FlyerNutter]

There is a lot of talk about Rasmus, which I can understand. Past performance and assets to acquire, let alone the hesitation with a possible extension.

I’ll venture to say that the goaltending is the biggest on ice failure for me this summer. Fletcher should have been coveting a 1B for years more than #70.

Hart should have given enough pause with performance and health, to ensure more stability then Martin Jones. There is more pressure on the kid this year, and the team has no real safety net.

That should have been priority number one, but was clearly not so. Yandle and Thompson net about 2 million between them to have gone toward goaltending salary allocation. The Flyers continuously display a lackadaisical approach to the importance of the position.

 

[deadhead]

There is a lot of talk about Rasmus, which I can understand. Past performance and assets to acquire, let alone the hesitation with a possible extension.

I’ll venture to say that the goaltending is the biggest on ice failure for me this summer. Fletcher should have been coveting a 1B for years more than #70.

Hart should have given enough pause with performance and health, to ensure more stability then Martin Jones. There is more pressure on the kid this year, and the team has no real safety net.

That should have been priority number one, but was clearly not so. Yandle and Thompson net about 2 million between them to have gone toward goaltending salary allocation. The Flyers continuously display a lackadaisical approach to the importance of the position.

Yandle and Thompson cost nothing, because if you didn't sign them, you'd replace them with an ELC that's just as costly, same with Brassard.

And the problem is the better backup goalies not only cost much more, but demand multi-year contracts, blocking the young cheap goalies who'll be at LHV this season (and Fedotov).

 

[BritainStix]

I'm gonna wait for the guy to get on the ice and f*** up before I chastise him for being a terrible player that was on a team that never once looked like making the playoffs. I understand the contempt for a player like Thompson, who has sucked everywhere hes played, including for us. I just don't get the constant shit posting that posters make about a player that hasn't even stepped onto the ice for us.

The negativity in this place is so grating at times.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Yandle and Thompson cost nothing, because if you didn't sign them, you'd replace them with an ELC that's just as costly, same with Brassard.

And the problem is the better backup goalies not only cost much more, but demand multi-year contracts, blocking the young cheap goalies who'll be at LHV this season (and Fedotov).

If the aim, and I think it’s a huge naive fallacy (that’s a story for another day) - if the aim is to compete.

Then you fully commit to that. Not hamstring your organization because you are scared of blocking Fedotov, and I’ll go even farther and say tying all hopes of success to a young goaltender that has raised valid red flags with performance and health.

In this mystical dream of making a cup run, they failed to address the biggest on ice issue, and wasted assets/cap space on other less crucial areas.

If the goaltending goes well, congrats to Fletcher on a hell of a gamble. If it doesn’t? He deserves to be racked up the same as Hextall for going in with Elliot and Neuvirth.

 

[TCTC]

its hilarous how he goes from polishing Haggturd right onto Risto..

Better than declaring Ristolainen the new Hagg before he's even played a game for us. But I'm impressed how many Sabres games some people here have watched apparently.

 

[Magua]

Some people have opinions about how future events will play out; some people need to see the future to have an opinion today. You can use the "wait and see" argument for everything, while adding nothing.

 

[Starat327]

I'm gonna wait for the guy to get on the ice and f*** up before I chastise him for being a terrible player that was on a team that never once looked like making the playoffs. I understand the contempt for a player like Thompson, who has sucked everywhere hes played, including for us. I just don't get the constant shit posting that posters make about a player that hasn't even stepped onto the ice for us.

The negativity in this place is so grating at times.

I dont understand your irrational emotionalism. We don't need to see Ristolainen put on a Flyers jersey to know that he has sucked for 8 full years of his professional career. We also know that putting on a Flyers sweater doesn't give him magical superpowers.

As just about everyone has said - will he look better here than in Buffalo? Sure, it's possible. Maybe even likely, given he'll be aying with better players. Does playing here mean he'll suddenly morph into a very good hockey player? Very unlikely.

This is science, and I'm not sure what there really is to debate about that. His stats show he's one of the worst defenseman in the league. His stats also show he's a contributor to the team being as bad as it was when he's on the ice. That's not predictive. That's measured off of actual reaults. It's not like he's going from a bottom dweller to a perennial contender and will have an easier go at things. He's going from a bottom dweller to a below average team that is coached by a team who isn't know for his defensive structure. That's not an opinion, and it's not a negative commentary. It's just the truth.

 

[Starat327]

Some people have opinions about how future events will play out; some people need to see the future to have an opinion today. You can use the "wait and see" argument for everything, while adding nothing.

I cant play the lottery for Tuesdays numbers because I don't know what they are today.

 

[Magua]

I cant play the lottery for Tuesdays numbers because I don't know what they are today.

You won the genetic lottery. Don't get greedy.

 

[Starat327]

You won the genetic lottery. Don't get greedy.

I didn't know we were rationing out winning. Ristos turn yet?

 

[Flyerfan4life]

There is a lot of talk about Rasmus, which I can understand. Past performance and assets to acquire, let alone the hesitation with a possible extension.

I’ll venture to say that the goaltending is the biggest on ice failure for me this summer. Fletcher should have been coveting a 1B for years more than #70.

Hart should have given enough pause with performance and health, to ensure more stability then Martin Jones. There is more pressure on the kid this year, and the team has no real safety net.

That should have been priority number one, but was clearly not so. Yandle and Thompson net about 2 million between them to have gone toward goaltending salary allocation. The Flyers continuously display a lackadaisical approach to the importance of the position.

the real problem remains in AV...

Hart has no chance this year..

iyll be the same situation in short order..

unless miracle if miracles, AV avtualy changes his "system".

 

[Rebels57]

Its a beautiful weekend. Take a break from the Risto talk.

 

[renberg]

If the Flyers had a sensible defensive system and the coach that could bring the guys to handle it well, then I’d say that Risto stood a decent chance of being re-made. I don’t see Yeo being that guy. This significant. If the Flyers don’t change the way that they play in their own end, we’ll see more of what we saw last season and Hart will get abused again.
Bringing in different players is fine since they may be upgrades. However if the system doesn’t change, it will just be more of the SOS. Every opponent in the league knows how to forecheck the Flyers into turnover oblivion and then turn them into quick shots on goal from high scoring chances.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

If the Flyers had a sensible defensive system and the coach that could bring the guys to handle it well, then I’d say that Risto stood a decent chance of being re-made. I don’t see Yeo being that guy. This significant. If the Flyers don’t change the way that they play in their own end, we’ll see more of what we saw last season and Hart will get abused again.
Bringing in different players is fine since they may be upgrades. However if the system doesn’t change, it will just be more of the SOS. Every opponent in the league knows how to forecheck the Flyers into turnover oblivion and then turn them into quick shots on goal from high scoring chances.

4 million % this ^^^^^^^