Roster Thread (2023-2024 Season)

[Jim Bob]

Bootinng Skinner would free up a little cap space, but that doesn't really mean much because we don't spend to the cap anymore.

What it does do is free up a roster spot for a more well rounded player, like Quinn or Benson. We have too many prospects that that are either top 6 or bust type players. We don't draft guys who play gritty 3rd and 4th line games. So even is we do buy out Skinner, we still need to create more spaces for Kulich, Savoie, Ostulnd, etc.

Buying out a vet and using the roster spot to get younger is not the path I would want them to go down.

We have seen that having one of the youngest and most inexperienced rosters in the NHL has led to. Further leaning into a young roster is unlikely to elevate this team to the next level of being a playoff team.

 

[Washed Up 29YearOld]

I'm not absolving Krueger, he didn't put Skinner in a situation to be successful.

But you can't ignore the fact it isn't Skinner's first time this happened to. His goal totals in Carolina went up and down season to season. It didn't quite crater like it did under Krueger, but it wasn't consistent. Skinner threw out 2 seasons because he didn't like the coach. What's going to happen when we make another coaching change? We going to have 9M of dead weight again?

It's really 1 bad season of dead cap and 5 seasons of marginal dead cap. And we will have enough ELC forwards to counter the two worst years.

You can't keep bringing back the same guys and expecting better results. The team needs a kick in the ass this summer, and it can't just be about guys you are bringing in, it has to be about guys you are sending out as well.

This is kind of ridiculous lol. You think he wasn't trying? He had inept centers who were lucky to even be in the NHL.

Centers matter a lot. Obviously I didn't play in a super high level, but when I played as a LW, I flat out couldn't produce with 4th/3rd line centers. I think i had a handful of assists that year. Next year, I play with a center on the top line who's a beast and got hat-tricks/most assists on team/ won a championship as the 2nd best player.

SO I LIKE TO THINK I KNOW A THING OR TWO ABOUT WINNING.... And Jeff Skinner.

 

[BFLO]

This is kind of ridiculous lol. You think he wasn't trying? He had inept centers who were lucky to even be in the NHL.

Centers matter a lot. Obviously I didn't play in a super high level, but when I played as a LW, I flat out couldn't produce with 4th/3rd line centers. I think i had a handful of assists that year. Next year, I play with a center on the top line who's a beast and got hat-tricks/most assists on team/ won a championship as the 2nd best player.

SO I LIKE TO THINK I KNOW A THING OR TWO ABOUT WINNING.... And Jeff Skinner.

The unsaid but implied part of this infamous Kreuger quote is that Skinner measures his career in goals, rather than in wins. And wins are what matter.

 

[Mattilaus]

Buying out a vet and using the roster spot to get younger is not the path I would want them to go down.

We have seen that having one of the youngest and most inexperienced rosters in the NHL has led to. Further leaning into a young roster is unlikely to elevate this team to the next level of being a playoff team.

I mean we can do both. Benson takes skinner's spot on the top line and we sign a cheaper vet who is good in a 3rd line checking/defensive role. We get the vet to replace skinner but he doesn't need to go in skinner's spot.

 

[Jim Bob]

I mean we can do both. Benson takes skinner's spot on the top line and we sign a cheaper vet who is good in a 3rd line checking/defensive role. We get the vet to replace skinner but he doesn't need to go in skinner's spot.

That does not seem to be the path that the poster I was replying to was talking about going down:

So even is we do buy out Skinner, we still need to create more spaces for Kulich, Savoie, Ostulnd, etc.

The poster seemed to want to make a young team even younger.

 

[chi777]

This is kind of ridiculous lol. You think he wasn't trying? He had inept centers who were lucky to even be in the NHL.

Centers matter a lot. Obviously I didn't play in a super high level, but when I played as a LW, I flat out couldn't produce with 4th/3rd line centers. I think i had a handful of assists that year. Next year, I play with a center on the top line who's a beast and got hat-tricks/most assists on team/ won a championship as the 2nd best player.

SO I LIKE TO THINK I KNOW A THING OR TWO ABOUT WINNING.... And Jeff Skinner.

So Skinner is $9mil player who can only produce if he's given a top center and played on the top line. On top of that, he has no defensive responsibilities and is not physical. Even when you give him everything he wants, he's still seldom a PPG player.

Let me ask you this. Do you honestly believe that a team like Boston would ever let Skinner near their top line? Tampa Bay? We know Carolina had enough of him and shipped him out for scraps. The reason being is that Carolina figured out that to win the type of games you need to win to make or win in the playoffs, you need top line guys with skills that Skinner doesn't have.

Now, if Skinner was all of those things and he was a 100pt player, that creates his own offense and makes his linemates better, that would probably be fine, despites his other shortcomings.

But he's far from that. He doesn't make anyone better. He is the one that needs to be made better by his better linemates. That's not good enough. He's easily replaceable, even from within the organization.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

So Skinner is $9mil player who can only produce if he's given a top center and played on the top line. On top of that, he has no defensive responsibilities and is not physical. Even when you give him everything he wants, he's still seldom a PPG player.

Let me ask you this. Do you honestly believe that a team like Boston would ever let Skinner near their top line? Tampa Bay? We know Carolina had enough of him and shipped him out for scraps. The reason being is that Carolina figured out that to win the type of games you need to win to make or win in the playoffs, you need top line guys with skills that Skinner doesn't have.

Now, if Skinner was all of those things and he was a 100pt player, that creates his own offense and makes his linemates better, that would probably be fine, despites his other shortcomings.

But he's far from that. He doesn't make anyone better. He is the one that needs to be made better by his better linemates. That's not good enough. He's easily replaceable, even from within the organization.

It's just a sideways move at best. You free up marginal cap space for a prospect...and get younger and less experienced and not better defensively, etc. You replace him with a defensive grinder guy that can fit under that marginal free cap space, and you still lose more cap space to improve anywhere else on the roster. I really don't care about losing Skinner off the roster, what matters is that there isn't enough usable cap space left to improve the roster enough to justify the move.

It's a semi-bad contract with no good solution. IMO the best route is bridging guys until his contract expires.

 

[toddkaz]

I think there is a good Chance Greenway is on the 4th line next year and that opens up at least one roster spot in the top 9.

I think the Top 9 is just about set for next year.

Skinner Tage Tuch
Quinn Cozens Peterka
Benson Mittelstadt Kulich
XXXX XXXX Greenway

I think Mittelstadt resigns and Buffalo moves on from Girgensons and Okposo.

Two vets are signed for the 4th line.

 

[DapperCam]

So AFTER winning six in row which would be nine in row they are going to play at a 103-point pace. Gotcha.

Actually I think they will do neither. But I think it’s more likely than the 113-114 point pace they would need over 42 games. That would be #3 in the entire league.

 

[sabremike]

Lots of revisionist history on Skinner here:

1) Carolina kept missing the playoffs entirely due to horrifically bad goaltending. Every single advanced metric confirms this fact.

2) Carolina "got rid of him" because they knew he was going to walk as a UFA after that season.

3) He was traded to us because he wanted to be as close to home (Toronto) as possible and because of this thing called the salary cap a move to the Leafs was impossible.

 

[chi777]

Lots of revisionist history on Skinner here:

1) Carolina kept missing the playoffs entirely due to horrifically bad goaltending. Every single advanced metric confirms this fact.

2) Carolina "got rid of him" because they knew he was going to walk as a UFA after that season.

3) He was traded to us because he wanted to be as close to home (Toronto) as possible and because of this thing called the salary cap a move to the Leafs was impossible.

Or...horrrfically bad goaltending is just bad goaltending made worse when coupled with bad team defense. And we all know Skinner's commitment to team defense. Not saying he's the sole cause, just a curious coincidence that Skinner keeps finding himself on teams that have bad defense and bad goaltending.

If he was viewed as an essential asset, Carolina would have made every effort to keep him. Just like every team does with their stars. He wasn't viewed as being worth it. And if he were a coveted player, someone would have outbid us for him, if he's as essential as he's being made out to be.

Toronto has never had any problems with finding a way for fit guys under the cap that they want on the Leafs. I think it should raise some eyebrows that the Leafs, who have famously loose purse strings, didn't want in on Skinner and his vaunted offensive abilities. IT's pretty telling when a player is to irresponsible defensively to play for the Leafs.

 

[sabremike]

Or...horrrfically bad goaltending is just bad goaltending made worse when coupled with bad team defense. And we all know Skinner's commitment to team defense. Not saying he's the sole cause, just a curious coincidence that Skinner keeps finding himself on teams that have bad defense and bad goaltending.

If he was viewed as an essential asset, Carolina would have made every effort to keep him. Just like every team does with their stars. He wasn't viewed as being worth it. And if he were a coveted player, someone would have outbid us for him, if he's as essential as he's being made out to be.

Toronto has never had any problems with finding a way for fit guys under the cap that they want on the Leafs. I think it should raise some eyebrows that the Leafs, who have famously loose purse strings, didn't want in on Skinner and his vaunted offensive abilities. IT's pretty telling when a player is to irresponsible defensively to play for the Leafs.

Skinner had a NTC and essentially forced his way to us (he blocked other proposed moves).

 

[Sabre the Win]

Not for 9 million.

He turned down 9m x 8 years didn't he? He is gonna get paid by someone.

6-7m and I am in.

Nope Lindholm is asking for way too much money. So unless you plan on using him as a 1C then you're much better off finding a defensively sound 4C

You guys really think he is going to get 9m or more after this disaster of a season. He or his agent shot themselves in the foot or he just doesn't want to be in Calgary at all and will goto another team cheaper.

 

[toddkaz]

You guys really think he is going to get 9m or more after this disaster of a season. He or his agent shot themselves in the foot or he just doesn't want to be in Calgary at all and will goto another team cheaper.

I agree with you. He isn't worth 9 million so either he really wants out of Calgary or his agent is giving him bad advice.


That being said, there is always a dumb GM who will sign players to outrages contracts.

 

[Ace]

Greenway’s name came up on todays Athletic hockey show as a name they were told to look out for Vancouver trying to acquire. They want size up front. He was the first name mentioned of a couple names.

 

[Zman5778]

Greenway’s name came up on todays Athletic hockey show as a name they were told to look out for Vancouver trying to acquire. They want size up front. He was the first name mentioned of a couple names.

I said it on the trading board thread -- I can't imagine Adams trading Greenway away short of a Godfather offer.

 

[Chainshot]

Greenway’s name came up on todays Athletic hockey show as a name they were told to look out for Vancouver trying to acquire. They want size up front. He was the first name mentioned of a couple names.

Rick Dhaliwal apparently was talking this up a few days ago on his radio show in Vancouver. I wonder if it came from there.

 

[CaliSabresfan24]

Greenway’s name came up on todays Athletic hockey show as a name they were told to look out for Vancouver trying to acquire. They want size up front. He was the first name mentioned of a couple names.

"Best I can do is a Brett Murray?" -KA

 

[Ace]

Rick Dhaliwal apparently was talking this up a few days ago on his radio show in Vancouver. I wonder if it came from there.

Yeah I think it was Thomas Drance they had on to talk Vancouver. It must be a topic in town. I can see how…we’re going nowhere again…they need a big winger...probably just trying to connect dots.

 

[Tatanka]

"Best I can do is a Brett Murray?" -KA

And an almost new VO….low miles.

 

[Fezzy126]

So Skinner is $9mil player who can only produce if he's given a top center and played on the top line. On top of that, he has no defensive responsibilities and is not physical. Even when you give him everything he wants, he's still seldom a PPG player.

Let me ask you this. Do you honestly believe that a team like Boston would ever let Skinner near their top line? Tampa Bay? We know Carolina had enough of him and shipped him out for scraps. The reason being is that Carolina figured out that to win the type of games you need to win to make or win in the playoffs, you need top line guys with skills that Skinner doesn't have.

Now, if Skinner was all of those things and he was a 100pt player, that creates his own offense and makes his linemates better, that would probably be fine, despites his other shortcomings.

But he's far from that. He doesn't make anyone better. He is the one that needs to be made better by his better linemates. That's not good enough. He's easily replaceable, even from within the organization.

You could say the same types of things about guys like Phil Kessel and Marian Gaborik. yet they were both acquired as the missing pieces for cup winners.

Getting rid of Skinner wouldn't make us better, we would just score less at even strength. Besides, he's still outscoring his defensive deficiencies, so what's the problem?

 

[debaser66]

You could say the same types of things about guys like Phil Kessel and Marian Gaborik. yet they were both acquired as the missing pieces for cup winners.

Getting rid of Skinner wouldn't make us better, we would just score less at even strength. Besides, he's still outscoring his defensive deficiencies, so what's the problem?

View attachment 799509

if this team would have a better balance between vets and youth I would agree. but he is certainly not a guy who you would want younger guys modeling their game after.
these teams you mention were already contenders and added them as complimentary pieces to an already strong leadership group, its kinda the opposite end on were the Sabres are currently standing.

 

[BFLO]

You could say the same types of things about guys like Phil Kessel and Marian Gaborik. yet they were both acquired as the missing pieces for cup winners.

Getting rid of Skinner wouldn't make us better, we would just score less at even strength. Besides, he's still outscoring his defensive deficiencies, so what's the problem?

View attachment 799509

Jeff Skinner is a -1 this season. He's not outscoring his defensive deficiencies. He's had a positive +/- exactly twice in his career. His rookie season, and last season.

The idea of getting rid of Skinner is more about the culture change of getting rid of the ring-leader of the "forwards who refuse to play a 200ft game", which would allow a coach to establish some accountability.

You can't bench other guys for refusing to play a 200ft game and then give Skinner 1st line and 1st unit PP minutes and expect anyone to take you seriously. It's impossible to establish a winning system and culture with a guy like Skinner getting 20 minutes a night who refuses to play the system.

And we've already seen how he responds to being demoted.

It's sunk cost fallacy to continue on with Skinner. We can flush the next 3 seasons and this entire rebuild down the drain by keeping him around, or we can move on.

edit: Kessel drove offense on the 3rd line for the penguins. Skinner is a passenger, not a driver and he's 1st line or bust.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Jeff Skinner is a -1 this season. He's not outscoring his defensive deficiencies. He's had a positive +/- exactly twice in his career. His rookie season, and last season.

The idea of getting rid of Skinner is more about the culture change of getting rid of the ring-leader of the "forwards who refuse to play a 200ft game", which would allow a coach to establish some accountability.

You can't bench other guys for refusing to play a 200ft game and then give Skinner 1st line and 1st unit PP minutes and expect anyone to take you seriously. It's impossible to establish a winning system and culture with a guy like Skinner getting 20 minutes a night who refuses to play the system.

And we've already seen how he responds to being demoted.

It's sunk cost fallacy to continue on with Skinner. We can flush the next 3 seasons and this entire rebuild down the drain by keeping him around, or we can move on.

edit: Kessel drove offense on the 3rd line for the penguins. Skinner is a passenger, not a driver and he's 1st line or bust.

The HC can't establish accountability when it's the GM forcing his hand with a buy out. The HC hasn't benched ANYONE for not playing 200ft. It's Granato's problem to solve, team wide, and he hasn't been able to.

 

[Fezzy126]

Jeff Skinner is a -1 this season. He's not outscoring his defensive deficiencies. He's had a positive +/- exactly twice in his career. His rookie season, and last season.

The idea of getting rid of Skinner is more about the culture change of getting rid of the ring-leader of the "forwards who refuse to play a 200ft game", which would allow a coach to establish some accountability.

You can't bench other guys for refusing to play a 200ft game and then give Skinner 1st line and 1st unit PP minutes and expect anyone to take you seriously. It's impossible to establish a winning system and culture with a guy like Skinner getting 20 minutes a night who refuses to play the system.

And we've already seen how he responds to being demoted.

It's sunk cost fallacy to continue on with Skinner. We can flush the next 3 seasons and this entire rebuild down the drain by keeping him around, or we can move on.

Skinner is 3rd on the team in 5v5 goal differential:

The 6 short-handed goals he's been on the ice for are responsible for his -1 rating. I'd say take him off the PP but the majority of those short handed goals really weren't his fault, and he also leads the team in PPG by a wide margin.