Roster Thread (2023-2024 Season)

[Chainshot]

I know it is a nothing burger move, but if I were Adams, I would be chatting with Fitzgerald about Bryson or Stillman as 10-12 minute a night temps for the Devils. The return of course would be the oft-moved, vaunted "Future Considerations".

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Dumping Skinner is exactly how you send the message that “we have others who can score in prime minutes, we need a 200 foot commitment, and those that give it play.”

The thin cap savings does not justify it. In fact, the dead cap space is pretty problematic just when the team "should" be in a competitive window.

The problem is, the real cost of keeping Skinner productive and happy exceeds the value that he provides in terms of production.

How great would it be if we could move Skinner down the lineup, have him score 25-30 goals and put someone in his top line spot and have them be more productive and the aggregate amount of goals we score would be higher and we'd be more effective.

However, that isn't how it works with Skinner. You move him down the lineup and reduce his TOI, even with high o zone starts.....his productive doesn't drop 25%, it drops 75%. So you have a player who is literally stapled to the top line, not because it's what is best for the team, not because he works hard. But because he's going to be so bad down the lineup, you just leave him on top line because his contract is unmovable.

He's part of the problems here.

Krueger was the problem, and you're making it up that it's all about Skinner.

 

[Tatanka]

The thin cap savings does not justify it. In fact, the dead cap space is pretty problematic just when the team "should" be in a competitive window.


Krueger was the problem, and you're making it up that it's all about Skinner.

It is not a cap move. It is a transformation from no accountability to accountability.

 

[Ehran]

The thin cap savings does not justify it. In fact, the dead cap space is pretty problematic just when the team "should" be in a competitive window.

The Nylander signing today convinces me that the GMs are confident that the salary cap is going up quite a bit over the next few years. Many, many, successful teams have had dead cap space in the past, and the present.

Whether you think buying out Skinner is a good way to improve the team or not, a few years of dead cap space shouldn't be the deciding factor. Or a major one, IMO.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

The Nylander signing today convinces me that the GMs are confident that the salary cap is going up quite a bit over the next few years. Many, many, successful teams have had dead cap space in the past, and the present.

Whether you think buying out Skinner is a good way to improve the team or not, a few years of dead cap space shouldn't be the deciding factor. Or a major one, IMO.

It's not a few years...it's six. And with cap going up, so do new contracts. Some are frustrated with paying Girgensons and Okposo what they make now, Clifton, EJ...how about paying that much every season for an empty roster spot? I believe the Sabres will need the cap space much more than a perceived culture change by ditching a productive player.

It is not a cap move. It is a transformation from no accountability to accountability.

I would love that, but it would be much more effective coming from a coaching aspect and overall team maturity. Skinner is not the poster child for this. We can easily say Cozens, Thompson, Tuch, Krebs, Dahlin, or Power are failing at playing a 200 ft game.

 

[Selanne00008]

+1 for the Skinner fan group. I just don't think his defensive disinterest and 1 way game is enough to waive him. 6 years of dead cap? PASS. We still have like 4 years left on Erhoff! That feels like a lifetime ago.

He is well liked in the room, and well hated by teams and pisses them off and forces penalties. And yes, He can actually put the puck in the net when on the top line.

 

[Irie]

I don't see the going full defense. I see a lot of guys trying to blow the zone early in the search for rush opportunities which I also put to coaching though not complexity. They are always harping on their identity as an offensive team, but their version of offense is rush shots, often 1-and-dones that they are consistently cheating the game by being on the wrong side of the puck. The coaching that they can score on the rush is one thing, focusing them in on doing something other than blowing the zone is another and something I have been heavily disappointed by this staff in bringing out. And that's not a complexity thing, those are just concepts that I'm sure all of these players have heard at developmental levels all the way up to being a pro - being back and in position to start the transition and supporting the player who has the puck, making the right decision in dangerous areas even if that means boring-off-the-wall-and-out to be safe at their blueline.

I see some of the "blowing the zone" as a result of that switch. A Sabres defender gets possession, and the forwards are instantly in attack mode. Doesn't matter that the puck-carrier is being pressured or that the puck is not safe or clear of the zone. They aren't properly reading the situation and transitioning from "defense" to "clear the zone" to "offense". They go straight from D to attack without reading the ice.

In the offensive zone, they aren't reading the defensive reads until the puck is turned over, which is too late, as the other team is breaking up ice with an oddman rush.

And yeah, I think the coaching staff has fallen down on instilling responsibility and it is a big problem.

I see lazy play reinforced by a lack of accountability for making the wrong decision in the name of pushing their self-proclaimed identity as a high-tempo team.

I see where you are coming from, but not sure I 100% agree... I would maybe say I 50% agree

The thing is, I don't see flat out lack of effort. I more often see deer in headlights confusion as they are standing around and trying to figure out what their teammates are doing to decide what they should be doing.

The transition and recovery has to be somewhat instinctive to be effective. Your mention of Benson-Mitts-Greenway is a good example, as I think the three have some instinctive chemistry and there is communication and anticipation.

With the Tage and Cozens' lines we are seeing hesitation, confusion and a definite lack of communication amongst linemates. I think a part of the explanation for that is a mental factor. When you are thinking about what the system is asking of you and trying to process the reads through "what does the coaching staff want me to do right now" instead of reading and reacting, the brain gets over-taxed and players often end up with tunnel-vision. You are on the ice and you are seeing everything, but not processing any of it properly and your decisions are terrible and your play stinks.

It is the growing pains of especially young centers as they are mentally overwhelmed with systems and reading every player on the ice. I expected some of this from Cozens this season as growing pains. Tage gets tunnelvision with the puck and misses his reads, like you pointed out from the last game. He is at his best when he is making highlight reel plays from broken plays and strange bounces. He has incredible skill, but he is older and isn't a player that makes his wingers better. I am not certain he will ever have a decent two-way game. May be a player you shelter with a defensive winger and let him free-wheel and create on his own. That may come from line chemsitry, but the coaching staff has to recognize his strengths and weaknesses and deploy him fittingly.

There is no corrective action - it doesn't have to be benching or bag skates, but where is the coaching to see less of those plays instead of more? That's what's on my mind today and something that I don't see enough players capable of making the right decisions, of making winning situational decisions, coming up or in-house grown here to offset the issues with the guys on the blueline are having (which some of those are also WTF coaching moments too).

Agreed, I think it definitely comes down to both coaching and chemistry. When Granato tells them to play his Defense and "decide what your roll is in that system based on where you and your linemates currently are", he is adding a lot of pre-processing to the learning curve.

communication is seriously lacking out there though, and I think the current approach with this group is just not working. I think there are more effective, simpler systems that would do wonders for these kids and help ease the "processing" burden, but I don't think this coaching staff has the wherewithal to evaluate and implement something effective. I think that has to come from outside - either a full new staff or several new experienced assistants.

 

[StrompTroller]

I know it is a nothing burger move, but if I were Adams, I would be chatting with Fitzgerald about Bryson or Stillman as 10-12 minute a night temps for the Devils. The return of course would be the oft-moved, vaunted "Future Considerations".

why rob Rochester for nothing though? They are both impending UFAs no? theres no cap savings there and after seeing the depleted defense Rochester has had to ice the last few playoff years I'd rather just keep all hands on deck.

 

[TehDoak]

The thin cap savings does not justify it. In fact, the dead cap space is pretty problematic just when the team "should" be in a competitive window.


Krueger was the problem, and you're making it up that it's all about Skinner.

I'm not absolving Krueger, he didn't put Skinner in a situation to be successful.

But you can't ignore the fact it isn't Skinner's first time this happened to. His goal totals in Carolina went up and down season to season. It didn't quite crater like it did under Krueger, but it wasn't consistent. Skinner threw out 2 seasons because he didn't like the coach. What's going to happen when we make another coaching change? We going to have 9M of dead weight again?

It's really 1 bad season of dead cap and 5 seasons of marginal dead cap. And we will have enough ELC forwards to counter the two worst years.

You can't keep bringing back the same guys and expecting better results. The team needs a kick in the ass this summer, and it can't just be about guys you are bringing in, it has to be about guys you are sending out as well.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I'm not anti-Skinner, though I'm not a big fan of his chaotic play.

His salary doesn't bother me. I really wish his roster spot was open. I'd love to see Quinn or Benson in that spot with Thompson and Tuch.

But Skinner isn't the reason that the organization is full of a billion forwards who play the exact same game. So a buyout even to free up the roster spot doesn't change much.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

You can't keep bringing back the same guys and expecting better results. The team needs a kick in the ass this summer, and it can't just be about guys you are bringing in, it has to be about guys you are sending out as well.

There's better ways to go about that.

 

[Chainshot]

why rob Rochester for nothing though? They are both impending UFAs no? theres no cap savings there and after seeing the depleted defense Rochester has had to ice the last few playoff years I'd rather just keep all hands on deck.

They are in the way of younger players getting development cycles down there. One is fine, two is too many.

 

[HaNotsri]

I know it is a nothing burger move, but if I were Adams, I would be chatting with Fitzgerald about Bryson or Stillman as 10-12 minute a night temps for the Devils. The return of course would be the oft-moved, vaunted "Future Considerations".

I bet he's been slapping and smacking that prime Stillman meat on the phone for months. No result.

 

[Dingo44]

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

Warms my flinty heart.

Can we see Ryan on the ice in a game too, please?

 

[Sabre the Win]

Do you make an attempt at signing Lindholm this offseason or do you trade for him with Calgary if you know he will sign?

Adams probably won't but would you?

 

[Old Navy Goat]

Do you make an attempt at signing Lindholm this offseason or do you trade for him with Calgary if you know he will sign?

Adams probably won't but would you?

Nope Lindholm is asking for way too much money. So unless you plan on using him as a 1C then you're much better off finding a defensively sound 4C

 

[toddkaz]

Do you make an attempt at signing Lindholm this offseason or do you trade for him with Calgary if you know he will sign?

Adams probably won't but would you?

Not for 9 million.

He turned down 9m x 8 years didn't he? He is gonna get paid by someone.

6-7m and I am in.

 

[Vito_81]

It's really 1 bad season of dead cap and 5 seasons of marginal dead cap. And we will have enough ELC forwards to counter the two worst years.

You can't keep bringing back the same guys and expecting better results. The team needs a kick in the ass this summer, and it can't just be about guys you are bringing in, it has to be about guys you are sending out as well.

I agree 1000%

Skinner is a vet and a leader that the younger players on this team look up to. How he plays the game is exactly how you remain in a playoff drought.

Kicking him to the curb is definitely a wake up call to the rest of the team. Couple that with a new coach who actually coaches and isnt a buddy/buddy mentor and you can begin to fix this teams overall play.

Yes there are still moves to be made, but to me a Skinner buyout needs to be the first one this summer.

And as you said, with the amount of high end prospects this team has at entry level deals, the dead cap won’t hurt as bad.

 

[Jim Bob]

I agree 1000%

Skinner is a vet and a leader that the younger players on this team look up to. How he plays the game is exactly how you remain in a playoff drought.

Kicking him to the curb is definitely a wake up call to the rest of the team. Couple that with a new coach who actually coaches and isnt a buddy/buddy mentor and you can begin to fix this teams overall play.

Yes there are still moves to be made, but to me a Skinner buyout needs to be the first one this summer.

And as you said, with the amount of high end prospects this team has at entry level deals, the dead cap won’t hurt as bad.

I would be surprised if that were something that Adams and Pegula wanted to do.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

Let's say they win the next 6 hypothetically. That would give them an 8 game win streak (not impossible for an up-and-down team, but not probable either).

That would give them 50 points in 46 games. To get to 96 points they would need 46 points in the final 36 games. That is a 0.628 point %, or 103 point pace. That would be 11th place in the NHL right now by point %. Not some impossible pace.

I guess my point is I don't think they can play consistently at an elite level for the rest of the season, so the only way to make a run would be to put together a winning streak and then a more reasonable pace after that. Hardly a compliment.

So AFTER winning six in row which would be nine in row they are going to play at a 103-point pace. Gotcha.

The playoff line is around 92 points on average

It's close to 95 now and 92 would be on the low range

 

[TehDoak]

View attachment 799310

I would be surprised if that were something that Adams and Pegula wanted to do.

You are right. I doubt it'll happen. But, it's probably the 1st step in resolving the issues here. And it doesn't require a player to waive a NTC, doesn't require us to outbid anyone, it just requires the will to do what's necessary to fix a team that will have missed the playoffs for 13 years.

 

[BFLO]

a quite a short term gap coverage doesn’t address the problem.

most teams top Dmen have come from Within or acquired when young/ prospect Just go through cup winning rosters

Chicago drafted Keith, Seabrook, Hjam
Kings drafted Doughty and others
tampa drafted hedman, acquired Cernak as a prospect, acquired Serg for drouin when both young.

i could go on.

I have no problem trading say Savoie/Brnson for a U23 RD drafted in 1st round. I’m not trading them for a 2+ rental.

The issue in chychrun was when his contract was ending and cap issues Sabres could have.

were we a cup candidate at the deadline giving up a 1st for a D is different because the pick likely 23-32 which is a big difference than trading a pick 10-14.

right now we aren’t a playoff team so making these moves are wasteful now.

Chicago also picked up Brain Campbell as a UFA and paid him $7.1m aav x 7. An enormous UFA contract in 2008.

The Kings picked up Scuderi and Willie Mitchell as UFAs. #2 and #3 by ice time for the Kings during their 1st cup run. Scuderi wasn't on the team anymore by the 2nd cup run, but Mitchell was still 3rd in ice time.

Tampa traded for McDonagh when he was 28 years old and had 1 full year left on his contract.

Where's our Campbell, McDonagh, or Scuderi/Mitchell?

View attachment 799310

I would be surprised if that were something that Adams and Pegula wanted to do.

It's a net savings of $7.3m in real Pegula dollars. Seems like something they'd consider.

 

[Jim Bob]

Chicago also picked up Brain Campbell as a UFA and paid him $7.1m aav x 7. An enormous UFA contract in 2008.

The Kings picked up Scuderi and Willie Mitchell as UFAs. #2 and #3 by ice time for the Kings during their 1st cup run. Scuderi wasn't on the team anymore by the 2nd cup run, but Mitchell was still 3rd in ice time.

Tampa traded for McDonagh when he was 28 years old and had 1 full year left on his contract.

Where's our Campbell, McDonagh, or Scuderi/Mitchell?

It's a net savings of $7.3m in real Pegula dollars. Seems like something they'd consider.

But that is not factoring in the money that you have to spend to replace Skinner. My guess is that fans would want more than $2.4M per year spent on a replacement.

 

[chi777]

I agree 1000%

Skinner is a vet and a leader that the younger players on this team look up to. How he plays the game is exactly how you remain in a playoff drought.

Kicking him to the curb is definitely a wake up call to the rest of the team. Couple that with a new coach who actually coaches and isnt a buddy/buddy mentor and you can begin to fix this teams overall play.

Yes there are still moves to be made, but to me a Skinner buyout needs to be the first one this summer.

And as you said, with the amount of high end prospects this team has at entry level deals, the dead cap won’t hurt as bad.

Bootinng Skinner would free up a little cap space, but that doesn't really mean much because we don't spend to the cap anymore.

What it does do is free up a roster spot for a more well rounded player, like Quinn or Benson. We have too many prospects that that are either top 6 or bust type players. We don't draft guys who play gritty 3rd and 4th line games. So even is we do buy out Skinner, we still need to create more spaces for Kulich, Savoie, Ostulnd, etc.