Roster Speculation part XXII

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joshjull

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Aug 2, 2005
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That line was together last year when ROR returned from injury. I dont know what the advanced stats were during that stretch of games though.

You know who else has great goal % stats with Eichel? Moulson.

If you notice the guys with the positive/better GF% with Eichel are all guys that don't have the puck a lot or don't need to (Girgs, McGinn and Moulson). Maybe just maybe letting Eichel be the guy running the show at all times on his line is the best way to use him. The obvious exception being his 7gms with Kane/Reinhart.
 
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Sabre Dance

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If you notice the guys with the positive/better GF% with Eichel are all guys that don't have the puck a lot or don't need to (Girgs, McGinn and Moulson). Maybe just maybe letting Eichel be the guy running the show at all times on his line is the best way to use him. The obvious exception being his 7gms with Kane/Reinhart.
Maybe. Eichel definitely will need players that go get the puck in the corners and give it to him.
 

tsujimoto74

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May 28, 2012
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To further the Eichel/Reinhart discussion, especially with the Eichel/Girgs numbers being posted.

Should they try Eichel with Girgs and maybe Okposo? Kane/O'Reilly/Reinhart? Would you feel better about the defensive assignments with Reinhart on the line instead of Okposo? Do you maybe even drop Reinhart to the third line and try to improve that line's overall production?


Girgs with Eichel and Reinhart pls. Girgs only got a little time with Eichel during the season last year but looked very good with him when he did. I think he'd be a great 3rd wheel on that line.
 

Aladyyn

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Girgs with Eichel and Reinhart pls. Girgs only got a little time with Eichel during the season last year but looked very good with him when he did. I think he'd be a great 3rd wheel on that line.

It's funny because even though it was a little time on Eichel's wing, Jack was still Girgensons' most common even strength linemate among forwards... Shows how much Girgs got jerked around.
 

Djp

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Theres ~5 mil in potential bonuses out there for the ELC guys too

there is a 7.5% cushion that covers player bonuses.

Bonus counts against the following year's cap, not the current year.


Wait, the 7.5% only comes into play if a team hits the cap, right? So, in your example, if the Sabres had $1M in cap space at the end of the season, the cushion would not be exceeded, correct?

calculate:

roll over=players salaries in all this year + player bonuses earned this year (*) -salary cap *1.075.

If roll over > 0 it rolls over to the next year

(*)--players 35+ contracts can be structured differently where their bonuses will not count this year but the following year like Iginla in Boston.

(*)--I think there are some bonuses that are exempt from the cap such as the bonus money in contracts for making all star teams or winning awards.

I'm pretty sure that the rollover can only occur if a team is exceeding the cap due to the bonus cushion, yes.

yes when they exceed the 7.5% cushion it rolls over to the next year

I think LTIRs count as part of this calculation. If not, then why are they even on the books? from an accounting standpoint these LTIRs should in essence be transfers to an NHLPA salary roll and not counted against the team in any way Even on a month long LTIE\R (like what Washington had to do last year with 2 of their players. Then this NHL operated pool of salaries then counts agains the players share but these players do not count against the roster of the team in nay way.
 

Sabre Dance

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It's funny because even though it was a little time on Eichel's wing, Jack was still Girgensons' most common even strength linemate among forwards... Shows how much Girgs got jerked around.

Girgensons is also the only forward to have over 50% GF with Ristolainen.

Maybe we underestimate this guy. Glad Murray didn't move him.
 

sabrebuild

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What are cap problems? Being over the cap? Yeah that's obvious cap problems but being pushed right up to the ceiling is far from ideal especially with so much young cheap talent. What if they make a run? They wouldn't be able to add a piece if they wanted. We clearly agree on Girgs but he'll have to find a home in the lineup this year.

Girgs fits in every line. Can this idea that he has no place die? Ever
 

Ruckus007

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there is a 7.5% cushion that covers player bonuses.


calculate:

roll over=players salaries in all this year + player bonuses earned this year (*) -salary cap *1.075.

If roll over > 0 it rolls over to the next year

(*)--players 35+ contracts can be structured differently where their bonuses will not count this year but the following year like Iginla in Boston.

(*)--I think there are some bonuses that are exempt from the cap such as the bonus money in contracts for making all star teams or winning awards.

yes when they exceed the 7.5% cushion it rolls over to the next year

I think LTIRs count as part of this calculation. If not, then why are they even on the books? from an accounting standpoint these LTIRs should in essence be transfers to an NHLPA salary roll and not counted against the team in any way Even on a month long LTIE\R (like what Washington had to do last year with 2 of their players. Then this NHL operated pool of salaries then counts agains the players share but these players do not count against the roster of the team in nay way.


Sure, but if a team hasn't spent to the cap on players' salaries, the leftover cap space will absorb bonus hits before the 7.5% cushion is accessed, right?
 

The Sabre

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The only real negative I have to say about Girgensons last year was that I was disappointed with his lack of physical play. It also looked like he was hesitant with the puck at times which would lead to turnovers. That's going strictly by the eye test. I still see a spot for him because I think, like Reinhart, he can be versatile enough to play anywhere. He's obviously not as good as Reinhart, but when he's on like he was in 14-15, he plays a game that could mesh with pretty much anyone.
 

SabresFanNorthPortFL

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Regarding Girgensons......

He went from first line center, darling of the organization to being behind (in both skill, pedigree, hype, etc) ROR, Eichel, Reinhart and Kane. Lat year was completely for 15 & 23 to grow and gain experience.

Girgs was a lost body, an afterthought. That doesn't change the fact that he is a valuable piece of the team going forward.....

The best thing that can ups happen, is that we sign Vesey....it's the perfect spot for Girgs....


Vesey - Eichel - Girgensons

Perfect line, especially since it will open up the other lines.

Moulson/Ennis - ROR - KO
Kane - Reinhart - Fasching (my dark horse)
Foligno - Larsson - Gionta

To me that is very balanced.
 

dotcommunism

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Aug 16, 2007
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there is a 7.5% cushion that covers player bonuses.






calculate:

roll over=players salaries in all this year + player bonuses earned this year (*) -salary cap *1.075.

If roll over > 0 it rolls over to the next year

(*)--players 35+ contracts can be structured differently where their bonuses will not count this year but the following year like Iginla in Boston.

(*)--I think there are some bonuses that are exempt from the cap such as the bonus money in contracts for making all star teams or winning awards.



yes when they exceed the 7.5% cushion it rolls over to the next year
I'm pretty sure none of this is right. Potential bonuses count against the salary cap, until they can no longer be earned. Teams are allowed to exceed the cap by a maximum of 7.5% due to bonuses that may be earned. Any bonuses in excess of that amount, must be accounted for under the actual upper limit. This idea that the overage/rollover is based on exceeding the bonus cushion is flat out nonsense. The actually earned bonuses can never put a team over the bonus cushion, because the bonuses that could be earned must not put a team over the 7.5% bonus cushion.

I am pretty sure that it works like this: Let's suppose a $73M cap, like there is now. So a team can exceed that cap by $5.475M solely due to potential bonuses. So that means that there is, practically speaking a cap of $78.475M, but the averaged club salary, less performance bonuses, cannot exceed $73M. If a team has $7M in performance bonuses, then the averaged club salary, less performance bonuses cannot exceed $71.475M. That is, any bonuses in excess of that 7.5% cushion must be accounted for under the actual upper limit.

It is not, as you seem to be interpreting it, that teams can spend as much on performance bonuses as they want and anything in excess of that 7.5% cushion rolls over to the next year. It's that teams cannot spend more on salary and potential bonuses than that upper limit + 7.5% cushion, period. The rollover happens when performance bonuses that are earned put a team over the upper limit. So a team with, let's say, $71M in non-performance bonus salary, and $3M in bonuses earned, would be over the upper limit by $1M and have their upper limit the next season reduced by the same amount.

As to your other points:
1) Bonuses for 35+ players are not "structured" to count against the cap the next year, per se. They just work by the same bonus rules as other contracts. It's just that teams can choose to sign 35+ players to one year contracts, with bonuses, so that if they are strapped for cap space, they can take advantage of the bonus cushion and rollover. It's just making use of the way the bonus rules operate. There is nothing special about how the contracts are written though. While deferred bonuses are a thing, and are paid later, they are charged to the cap in the season in which they are earned.

2) No, bonuses paid for making all star teams or winning awards are not "cap exempt". Those are schedule B bonuses, and are explicitly mentioned alongside schedule A bonuses in the relevant sections of the CBA. It's just that some schedule B bonuses are paid by the league. They are still charged against a team's cap, however.

I think LTIRs count as part of this calculation. If not, then why are they even on the books? from an accounting standpoint these LTIRs should in essence be transfers to an NHLPA salary roll and not counted against the team in any way Even on a month long LTIE\R (like what Washington had to do last year with 2 of their players. Then this NHL operated pool of salaries then counts agains the players share but these players do not count against the roster of the team in nay way.

LTIR players count against the cap and the players' share. Teams are allowed to add players to the roster to replace a player who has been placed on LTIR. Those replacement players cannot have total salary and bonuses exceeding those of the player being replaced. Adding those replacement players, however, can allow a team to exceed the upper limit.

Let's say, hypothetically, the Sabres were sitting at $71M prior to opening day (not counting performance bonuses covered by the bonus cushion). Then, Matt Moulson pulled something while giving Eichel a push on his swing set and it was deemed he would be out for long enough to merit LTIR. The Sabres could then add a player, or players, whose cap hit was up to $5M as replacements for Moulson while he's on LTIR. The Sabres could, under such circumstances, end up having an averaged club salary of $76M due to those replacement players.
 

Husko

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DC, I've always meant to ask, are you some type of sports or collective bargaining attorney? Or just a very useful superfan?
 

brian_griffin

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May 10, 2007
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DC, I've always meant to ask, are you some type of sports or collective bargaining attorney? Or just a very useful superfan?

Pretty sure the latter, as he's never admitted to the former (though I've suspected it too).

You can download the CBA in .pdf It's not too long. It's pretty straightforwardly organized, and there are some examples in there as well.

We should probably put a link to the NHL/NHLPA CBA .pdf in the stickied Sabres thread on players/prospects/draft choice property.
 

jc17

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Jun 14, 2013
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The only real negative I have to say about Girgensons last year was that I was disappointed with his lack of physical play. It also looked like he was hesitant with the puck at times which would lead to turnovers. That's going strictly by the eye test. I still see a spot for him because I think, like Reinhart, he can be versatile enough to play anywhere. He's obviously not as good as Reinhart, but when he's on like he was in 14-15, he plays a game that could mesh with pretty much anyone.

Last year was definitely not great for him, but still not terrible. Not that its talked about as much now, but I think trading him while his value is down would be a bad move.

One thing he did well last year was getting to the net. He gets a ton of scoring chances right by the net, and while they didn't always fall in last year, they eventually will.
 

Sabretooth

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May 14, 2013
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With these performance bonus effects on the cap, we could potentially end having a large amount of cap tied up in performance bonuses. Based on the discussion Eichel and Reinhart already fill the 7.5% cushion. Vessey is probably getting max performance bonuses so he'd count for ~3mil in cap if he signs. Then hypothetically if Nylander stayed up he's probably be about 2mil in cap with his likely performance bonuses. And then if Fasching makes the team he's got enough bonuses where he'd add 1.6mil cap hit. That's a total cap hit of 4.5125mil tied up in potential performance bonuses (above the 7.5% cushion).

I wonder... if cap overages due to performance bonuses can reduce our cap for next year, is there ever a situation where using cap space for potential bonus that are unearned can increase next season's cap?
 

BuffaloKatanas

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Jan 11, 2014
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How would you feel about this?

Silly rumor making its way around Twitter that Vesey is signed, Nash has been traded for, and Fowler is on the way. Obviously there is no validity to the rumors, but since it's summer, let's have fun. Assuming girgen sons, ennis, and Kane are used in the deals, would you be happy with the roster if we added vesey, Nash, and fowler?
 

TheStorm

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Sep 15, 2015
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Yes, that would be pretty nice. Twitter rumors are just the worst though and It kind of makes me glad I don't even use the site.
 

DJN21

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Aug 8, 2011
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Silly rumor making its way around Twitter that Vesey is signed, Nash has been traded for, and Fowler is on the way. Obviously there is no validity to the rumors, but since it's summer, let's have fun. Assuming girgen sons, ennis, and Kane are used in the deals, would you be happy with the roster if we added vesey, Nash, and fowler?

Vesey for free
2017 1st, Baptiste for Fowler
Nash for Ennis

Mega Team unite...
 

DJN21

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Vesey-Eichel-Nash
Kane-Reinhart-Girgs
Fasching-ROR-Okposo
Foligno-Larsson-Gionta

Lets break the salary cap!
 

Icicle

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Girgs has no puck control. He has no business being on a talent line. He is a 3/4 C/W that should be taking heavy PK minutes (assuming the coaches stop playing old people there).

Gionta+Reinhart would be a painfully slow line. Don't put those two together.

ROR made Des look like a competent forward. He sure as hell can make up for a streaky LW. A streaky RW too (Okposo). He is our best player to do so.

I swear you're all trolling
 

Yatzhee

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Aug 5, 2010
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It's funny because even though it was a little time on Eichel's wing, Jack was still Girgensons' most common even strength linemate among forwards... Shows how much Girgs got jerked around.

This is inaccurate.
No one was 'jerked around", as you put it.
Bylsma and staff were attempting to find consistency and chemistry amongst the players.
The fact that Girgensons couldn't maintain any consistency among Buffalo's top scoring forwards speaks volumes to me, and to his future role with the team.
 

Husko

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Jun 30, 2006
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Silly rumor making its way around Twitter that Vesey is signed, Nash has been traded for, and Fowler is on the way. Obviously there is no validity to the rumors, but since it's summer, let's have fun. Assuming girgen sons, ennis, and Kane are used in the deals, would you be happy with the roster if we added vesey, Nash, and fowler?

I mean, yeah, those would all obviously be great additions to the team, so long as we didn't give up anything substantive for Nash. But I trust twitter rumors about as much as HF posters other than dotcom interpreting the CBA.
 

Aladyyn

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Apr 6, 2015
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This is inaccurate.
No one was 'jerked around", as you put it.
Bylsma and staff were attempting to find consistency and chemistry amongst the players.
The fact that Girgensons couldn't maintain any consistency among Buffalo's top scoring forwards speaks volumes to me, and to his future role with the team.

"Couldn't maintain any consistency" apart from the part where he was the best of Eichel's wingers?
 
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