Roster Speculation 2017-18 Part 3

[tsujimoto74]

How much do you think LA would have to retain to consider:
To LA - Evander Kane
To Buffalo - Dustin Brown (? Retained), 1st rd '17


0?
I might do it.

Like 90%. Brown's contract is god-awful. Magnitudes worse than Moulson's. The money, the term...dear god, the term. Nope nope nope.

 

[AustonsNostrils]

It's June so I understand why fans are playing wheeler dealer GM fantasy games. But other than doing something with Kane(signing or trading) and expansion draft maneuvering we should stay the course. It seems the majority of people posting here thought Bylsma and injuries were what kept us from being playoff contenders - he's gone and hopefully we start next season healthy. Let's see how we look under a new coach.

Not interested in trading kids we've put time into developing before they have a chance with us to become NHL players.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Brodin and Tuch is such a great deal for the Wild that almost all their fans can't type SOLD and hit Submit Reply fast enough.

Agree. I'm all about acquiring Brodin and Tuch. Just not for Reinhart.

I like Brodin. He should definitely be near the top of the list of targets during this expansion shake up.

But no way in hell should we trade Reinhart for him.

Agree.

perfect world.

people will hate this (bogo), but....

Bogo-Risto
Brodin-Tanev
McCabe-Antipin

jumping in...

The plan should be to see what is out there for somewhat valuable, but disposable assets (Kane). Get a Dman without subtracting from core/high value assets. If the move isn't available, go in to the season with the team we have (maybe some minor tweaks - like Franson 2.0, or Gionta 2.0). The point being... see what we have under a competent Head Coach and an appropriate system with good player usage.

Then evaluate what your needs are and what you're willing to part with.

Agree with both quotes. Aside from trading Kane and whatever comes from the expansion draft, there's nothing wrong with holding the current roster and seeing what the team does.

I don't see Tuch as doing much with the Sabres having Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, and Nylander in Rochester last year and not that far away from the NHL.

I'd rather go other routes to upgrade on D than deal Reinhart, especially if the D coming back is a guy like Brodin.

Aside from Fasching, none of the Rochester wingers are as strong on the boards and in front of the net as Tuch. Tuch's game has some Lucic qualities, except Tuch is a better skater.

How much do you think LA would have to retain to consider:
To LA - Evander Kane
To Buffalo - Dustin Brown (? Retained), 1st rd '17

0?
I might do it.

I thought about this exact deal for the past two days. Brown's contract does suck. But he hits, forechecks, and has a playoff time game. And he's captained two Cup winners.

I'm still thinking this one through. If Vegas took Moulson, and GMJB was able to trade ahead of Arizona and get Makar, and Valimaki was on the board at 11OA...... hmmmmmmmm.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Lehner for Sanheim?

 

[Zip15]

How much do you think LA would have to retain to consider:
To LA - Evander Kane
To Buffalo - Dustin Brown (? Retained), 1st rd '17


0?
I might do it.

Add Muzzin coming to BUF and Ennis going to LA and maybe I'll stop getting violently ill when I look at this proposal. Even then I don't think I could do it.

Brown has one of the five worst contracts in the NHL when you consider both term and cap hit.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Add Muzzin coming to BUF and Ennis going to LA and maybe I'll stop getting violently ill when I look at this proposal. Even then I don't think I could do it.

Brown has one of the five worst contracts in the NHL when you consider both term and cap hit.

Kane, Ennis for Brown, Muzzin, 11OA? If that also means Moulson is in Vegas, that makes this deal a "yes" for me.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Brown has a 22 team no trade list, pretty sure we aren't one of the 8 he'd accept a trade to. Even if he is a NY guy. But my god, Zip is right, and may actually be selling it short. Not only is his deal one of the 5 worst in the league it may very well be THE worst. 5 more seasons at nearly $6 mil per....if Buffalo acquired Brown his cap hit would be the third highest in the team. Hasn't scored 50+ points since 11-12. He actually failed to score 30+ points in 4 of the last 5 seasons. That's downright terrible. His all around game is really nothing special. He hits big deal. So does Foligno for less then half the cost, and offensive production is nearly identical. He turns 33 in November.

His contract makes Ennis and Moulson look like bargains.

The Kings want out from him, they need to retain 40-50%, give us #11 AND Muzzin. And take back Ennis or Moulson.

Brown @ ~3 mil
Muzzin
#11

For

Ennis/Moulson
Kane

I still would have second thoughts.

Though, it does kind of intrigue me. My dream scenario is to acquire a top 4 D this summer without moving Reinhart, Nylander or #8. Kane too. If we could get Muzzin for taking on Browns deal @ 50% retained for a mid round pick or average prospect I'd be interested. Then target another D in free agency.

Muzzin+Brown @ 50% for 3rd rounder. Extend Evander Kane $5.5 mil x 4-5 years. Sign Karl Alzner $5.25 mil x 5 years. Moulson is taken by Vegas for WSH 3rd. Ennis to Arizona for MIN 2nd.

2018-2019 roster.

Kane-Eichel-Okposo
Nylander-Reinhart-Bailey
Carrier-RoR-Baptiste
Erod-Larsson-Brown


Muzzin-Ristolainen
Alzner-Antipin
McCabe-Guhle

#8 is used on Tippett or Glass who would be replacing Okposo around 2020. Bogosian, Foligno and Girgensons dealt for futures for cap purposes. The D is solid, and the forwards are too. We keep our best ES goal scorer and Reinhart and still add two top 4 D, and not to mention have another high end forward prospect waiting in the wings in Tippett/Glass. If McCabe is playing bottom pairing then that means we have a real quality blue line. That forward group is also a quality group. We have the elite center spine. We would still have Kane. It works cap wise assuming the cap is in the upper 70s.

I think the roster assembled above is a contender, assuming Nylander, Guhle and Antipin pan out and fully reach their ceilings (Antipin and Guhle as top 4 caliber D, and Nylander as a 60-65 point winger). The 20+ goal scorers in the lineup are Eichel, Kane, Okposo, RoR, Reinhart and Nylander. Last time the Sabres had 6 20+ goal scorers was probably a decade ago. I know the trade Kane team is strong right now but I'd like to see him for one more year here, at least. I mean, his game is tailor made for the playoffs (elite speed, high end physicality/forechecking, great at 5v5 scoring where power play chances are scarce) I'd like to see him be here when we finally do make the post season again. Alzner isn't the most popular choice but he comes at no cost besides salary. And we get to keep #8 which is huge. Cup contenders/winners get quality contributions from players on ELCs and second contracts, so keeping Nylander and #8 is imperative. Brown is whatever, if need be we can just send him to Rochester and save another million on top of what La is retaining and fill his spot with a vet minimum or another ELC contract.

 

[Jame]

^ you think Tim Murray is the worst GM ever, but with a single UFA signing and one small trade, and some cap dumps... you think the team he built would be a contender

Makes sense...

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

^ you think Tim Murray is the worst GM ever, but with a single UFA signing and one small trade, and some cap dumps... you think the team he built would be a contender

Makes sense...

He built? You mean he drafted top quality prospects in the top 10 a few times.... Lehner is hot poo for me personally. Kane is a meh trade we probably lost even if we extend him. I give him a lot of credit for ROR and Okposo signings as most should do. That's it. The rest just came to us via drafting. He didn't build anything. He stood behind an incompetent coach and built a terrible D corp. If D and G can be fixed while keeping most F assets we will be a contender very soon assuming the coach hire doesn't go downhill like it did with Bylsma.

 

[Jame]

He built? You mean he drafted top quality prospects in the top 10 a few times.... Lehner is hot poo for me personally. Kane is a meh trade we probably lost even if we extend him. I give him a lot of credit for ROR and Okposo signings as most should do. That's it. The rest just came to us via drafting. He didn't build anything. He stood behind an incompetent coach and built a terrible D corp. If D and G can be fixed while keeping most F assets we will be a contender very soon assuming the coach hire doesn't go downhill like it did with Bylsma.

uh... are you just arguing for the sake of arguing here?

Tweedle posted a roster that he called "a contender"
The changes he made were incredibly minor to to the roster Murray had already assembled, and the changes weren't earth shattering moves that Murray would've been unable to execute.

CHANGES IN BOLD

Kane-Eichel-Okposo
Nylander-Reinhart-Bailey
Carrier-RoR-Baptiste
Erod-Larsson-Brown


Muzzin-Ristolainen
Alzner-Antipin
McCabe-Guhle

I mean, we all get that it's stupid.. we get LA's #2 defensemen for taking on 50% of Brown's contract and sign Alzner to a back breakingly stupid deal. The point isn't the silly trades/signings... it's the gulf between "Worst GM Ever, set us back years" to "nah, we fixed everything with Karl Alzner and Jake Muzzin".

But the reality is that if these are the types of moves that get us to be a contender, then Murray was right on track.

 

[Icicle]

Murray wasn't far off, he just wasn't ready to fire Bylsma and had no plan forward on how to fix things. His culture concerns was the cherry on top.

All I can hope out of Botts is to trade Kane and Minn's second for Ennis/Moulson assurance and a middling defenseman. A vet winger and a vet LHD for the bottom pair would be a good to have as well.

Going much further means he has zero faith in our core players, which I don't think is fair given the Bylsma treatment they've all been through. Only Franson went from bad to good under Bylsma. Everyone else just looked terrible and lost confidence.

 

[Icicle]

Bailey-ROR-OK
Carrier-Eichel-Rodrigues
Girgensons-Reinhart-Vet/Baptiste/Fasching
Folingo-Larsson-Moulson
Des
em call-up Nylander

Trade-Ristolainen
McCabe-Antipin
Gorges/Vet-Bogo
Falk
em call-up Guhle (likely mid-season...)

Lehner?
Backup


If Moulson is gonna be broken, we really could use a UFA winger to compliment the talent, and hopefully Nylander can fill the second need of that role in a year or two. Unless we ditch contracts, we aren't going to be able to fit that winger in right away though, it's not like we're expecting the cup with this line-up.

If Lehner is used as a trade-chip to make something else happen in our favor I think Botts should go for it. I don't want him on anything longer than 2 years, I don't see him as the goalie of the future. Botts probably would want another year before determining that though.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Avs fan here. Barrie is rumored to be available (NO IDEA WHY). Buffalo are one of the teams I picture needing defense who also have a top 10 pick which is what I assume Sakic is looking for in a trade for him.

Does 8th overall for Barrie make any sense for you guys? Can Bogo play the left side? If not the trade may not make sense since you probably don't want Bogo playing 3rd pairing minutes.

As for Barrie, I would absolutely love to watch his numbers explode in Buffalo. The guy has been a 5v5 monster in Colorado but his PP production hasn't looked great due to the awful setup they've been rocking there for years (See ROR who's PP production took off once going to Buffalo while his ES production took a major knock). I'd expect Barrie's PP production to boom since he can play the right side on the first PP unit (Barrie's shot isn't great so this makes obvious sense with Risto playing the off side for his bomb) while his ES production likely stays the same (I expect everyone else on Buffalo to start scoring more 5v5 with Bylsma canned).

Anyway, if the fit doesn't make sense it isn't worth speaking about. If he does fit, how do you guys feel about that for value? I was going to make a main boards proposal but figured I should check in with Sabres fans first in case im off base.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

Adding another righty is questionable (I can never remember if Antipin is lefty who plays right or a righty who plays left). At least for me there's 2 D that I'd rather draft than acquire Barrie but I'd probably go after Barrie just in the basis that I think he returns better than a top 10 pick regardless.

 

[cybresabre]

Adding another righty is questionable (I can never remember if Antipin is lefty who plays right or a righty who plays left). At least for me there's 2 D that I'd rather draft than acquire Barrie but I'd probably go after Barrie just in the basis that I think he returns better than a top 10 pick regardless.

It's in alphabetical order. Antipin is a Lefty who Plays Right.

 

[1972]

How does Darren Raddysh not come up in this thread? Sabres should be giving that kid a tour of Buffalo. He's following a similar path to Jake Muzzin, and IMO is a lock to play in the league in some capacity.

If we come out of this offseason with:

Evander Kane for a D (Jake Muzzin? Matt Dumba?)
Victor Antipin
Darren Raddysh
2-3 D in the top 90 of the draft (Not necessarily at 8)
Bring in some depth veteran on the back end


Things would look promising and we didn't have to go crazy to do it.

 

[LetsDoughBuffalo]

Murray wasn't far off, he just wasn't ready to fire Bylsma and had no plan forward on how to fix things.

Speculation.

Especially regarding no plan - I highly doubt he had no offseason plan.

 

[Reddawg]

How does Darren Raddysh not come up in this thread? Sabres should be giving that kid a tour of Buffalo. He's following a similar path to Jake Muzzin, and IMO is a lock to play in the league in some capacity.

Beware undrafted overage junior players who have monster seasons. I remember getting all excited about a "kid" named Thomas Beauregard who had a monster year (71 goals, 124 points) as an overager...and he could only rise to ECHL level with cups of coffee in the AHL at the end of the day.

Outperforming 17 year olds when you're 21 is not an impressive accomplishment that destins you for greatness. There's a long list of those kind of players who don't end up as anything once they leave junior. Colton Yellow Horn comes to mind as well. Brendan Shinnimin tasted the NHL but never capitalized on his undrafted overage year.

 

[Kase]

Hey guys!

Sorry to bother you, but I was thinking about a possible trade between Minnesota and Buffalo and wanted to post here instead of main boards to hear your opinion.

I know there has been some talks about Brodin to Buffalo before, and the fans doesn't seem to agree on the trade. Min fans want Reinhart for Brodin which is a no go for you guys, and understandably so, and Buffalo fans have offered the 8th pick with some adds for Brodin which hasn't pleased Minnesota fans.

So from this we can assume that value wise:
Brodin > 8th pick

So the idea which I'm proposing is to add to that deal which evens out the value. I was thinking that a trade that would benefit both teams could be something like this:

To Buffalo: Brodin, Tuch/Kunin

To Minnesota: 8th pick, Nylander

So what do you guys think? Is this a workable base for a trade or is this something that you wouldn't even consider. Thanks in advance for your answers.

 

[truthbluth]

*whispers* Dustin Brown is a more effective player in more situations than Evander Kane, who had a career high Sh% last year. Even still, D Brown's ES P/60 at 1.58, is not far off of Kane's 1.88, and their career averages are close. Besides, Dustin Brown is effective even when he's not scoring, Kane is atrocious.

The contract is very bad though. I'd need LA to eat at least 25%, preferably 33%-50%, and still hope Brown decides to retire in 3 years.

It's an interesting idea though.

 

[Ace]

*whispers* Dustin Brown is a more effective player in more situations than Evander Kane

I'm done with whatever numbers you believe tell you what's happening.

 

[Ace]

Spoiler alert: LA has the puck a lot more often than Buffalo. Telling me that the worst of the 5 players on their ice isn't on for goals as often as any player on ours is telling me nothing of note.

 

[Reddawg]

To Buffalo: Brodin, Tuch/Kunin

To Minnesota: 8th pick, Nylander

So what do you guys think? Is this a workable base for a trade or is this something that you wouldn't even consider. Thanks in advance for your answers.

Change Tuch/Kunin to Greenway and this gets a lot more interesting for us. Neither of those prospects are all that appealing if we're parting with two of our biggest trade pieces in a single deal, but Greenway is intriguing. I would say Kaprizof, but it seems clear that no Wild fans are interested in trading him under any circumstances.

 

[truthbluth]

Spoiler alert: LA has the puck a lot more often than Buffalo. Telling me that the worst of the 5 players on their ice isn't on for goals as often as any player on ours is telling me nothing of note.

Dustin Brown was good last year. Ask a Kings fan. Evander Kane simply doesn't play defense at 5v5. I have no earthly idea why, but he doesn't. Dustin Brown is a very good defensive forward, and a great forechecker. If Evander Kane isn't scoring, he's doing nothing. Occasional big hits that don't positively affect the play for the Sabres. He's not going to shoot 11% again.

 

[truthbluth]

Change Tuch/Kunin to Greenway and this gets a lot more interesting for us. Neither of those prospects are all that appealing if we're parting with two of our biggest trade pieces in a single deal, but Greenway is intriguing. I would say Kaprizof, but it seems clear that no Wild fans are interested in trading him under any circumstances.

This doesn't speak for all Sabres fans. Kunin and Tuch are both better prospects than Greenway imo, and that deal is interesting with either of those prospects to me.