Roster Speculation 2015-16 Pt. III

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Fun fact:

the 2003 ducks didn't have a late first. They traded picks 36+54 to the Stars to get 28th

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/hockey/DraftTrades/Years/2003.htm

We have 31+51. Imagine

I was talking Getzlaf not Perry, but fair point (I also consider everything after 15 a "late" first so word choices).

 

[zenthusiast]

If we're asking past Tim Murray about Tarasenko I have a feeling he'd rather take the pick

 

[Jame]

Ask the 2003 Anaheim Ducks if that late first matters...

Fixed

22 yr old Lupul (28 goals/53 points)
20 yr old Smid (9th overall pick)
2007 1st (30th overall - traded up to 21st)
2008 1st (22nd overall - Jordan Eberle)
2008 2nd (53rd overall - traded to Isles)

for Pronger

21 yr old Grigorenko (12th overall)
20 yr old Zadorov (16th overall)
2015 1st (21st overall)
2016 1st (UNK)
Hodgson (UGH)

for OEL

 

[zenthusiast]

tbf there were outside conditions spurring that pronger trade that diminished his value

 

[Havok89]

tbf there were outside conditions spurring that pronger trade that diminished his value

He was also a lot better than OEL is too.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

22 yr old Lupul (28 goals/53 points)
20 yr old Smid (9th overall pick)
2007 1st (30th overall - traded up to 21st)
2008 1st (22nd overall - Jordan Eberle)
2008 2nd (53rd overall - traded to Isles)

for Pronger

21 yr old Grigorenko (12th overall)
20 yr old Zadorov (16th overall)
2015 1st (21st overall)
2016 1st (UNK)
Hodgson (UGH)

for OEL

You mean the trade they made as an established playoff team with a core of known NHL commodities looking to take the next step? Trading the glut of assets we have before we get to that point is dumb to me.

 

[Jame]

tbf there were outside conditions spurring that pronger trade that diminished his value

We would be paying "more" for OEL, primarily in the value of the 2016 1st.

it's also important to note... the Ducks didn't have to give up 21 yr old Perry or Getzlaf

He was also a lot better than OEL is too.

That's true... but He was also 32 yrs old when he was acquired by Anaheim

While OEL is going on 24 in July...

 

[Jame]

You mean the trade they made as an established playoff team with a core of known NHL commodities looking to take the next step? Trading the glut of assets we have before we get to that point is dumb to me.

They added a 32 yr old franchise defensemen to their core of veteran playoff talent... yes

We would add a 24 yr old franchise defensemen to our future core....

Trading the glut of secondary assets we have... for a franchise defensemen that fits our greatest need, and fits right in with the stage our franchise is in.... is perfect.

 

[TehDoak]

22 yr old Lupul (28 goals/53 points)
20 yr old Smid (9th overall pick)
2007 1st (30th overall - traded up to 21st)
2008 1st (22nd overall - Jordan Eberle)
2008 2nd (53rd overall - traded to Isles)

for Pronger

21 yr old Grigorenko (12th overall)
20 yr old Zadorov (16th overall)
2015 1st (21st overall)
2016 1st (UNK)
Hodgson (UGH)

for OEL

Pronger also asked to be traded.

Arizona isn't trading OEL, so relative value doesn't really matter.

 

[Jame]

Arizona isn't trading OEL, so relative value doesn't really matter.

It's hypothetical, presented to debate talent evaluation, roster building, etc

“Shane Doan is not going anywhere. Oliver Ekman-Larsson is a player we would certainly be very very reluctant to part with,” - Maloney January 2015

That's the kind of statement you make when you want to entice some "knock my socks off" offers...

 

[TehDoak]

It's hypothetical, presented to debate talent evaluation, roster building, etc

“Shane Doan is not going anywhere. Oliver Ekman-Larsson is a player we would certainly be very very reluctant to part with,” - Maloney January 2015

That's the kind of statement you make when you want to entice some "knock my socks off" offers...

Well, if you want to further the theory that Arizona ownership is trying to basically be equivalent of the Cleveland Indians in Major League but in real life (be so bad they lose enough $ to hit their out clause), moving OEL for a bunch of futures + Hodgson is a good start

If I'm running the Coyotes to be a good hockey team, the asking price for Buffalo starts with Reinhart or Girgensons and then you start talking about the other pieces.

 

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[Jame]

Well, if you want to further the theory that Arizona ownership is trying to basically be equivalent of the Cleveland Indians in Major League but in real life (be so bad they lose enough $ to hit their out clause), moving OEL for a bunch of futures + Hodgson is a good start

If I'm running the Coyotes to be a good hockey team, the asking price for Buffalo starts with Reinhart or Girgensons and then you start talking about the other pieces.

Edmonton couldn't get Perry or Getzlaf at 21 yrs old for Pronger...

If you accept that there are many franchises where Grigo and Zadorov would be considered the "top young prospects" in the organization, then the offer can be understood for its true value.

 

[gallagt01]

Super stars are hard to come by, potential super stars (hope) are not

Based on this logic, then, would you be willing to include Reinhart in a package for OEL? That's surely the first piece ARI asks for.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

They added a 32 yr old franchise defensemen to their core of veteran playoff talent... yes

We would add a 24 yr old franchise defensemen to our future core....

Trading the glut of secondary assets we have... for a franchise defensemen that fits our greatest need, and fits right in with the stage our franchise is in.... is perfect.

I just don't like the position that puts us in if the Eichel/Reinhart/Girgensons/OEL/Risto core is another piece short, especially when we don't know if half of those pieces you flipped for Larsson are actually "secondary" assets yet.

Excluding those 5, that leaves:
Larsson
Fasching
Compher
Bailey
Baptiste
Carrier

Bogosian
Pysyk
McCabe

2015 31 / 51
2016 Depth Picks
2017 / 2018 First

As trade ammunition. Meh.

 

[TehDoak]

Edmonton couldn't get Perry or Getzlaf at 21 yrs old for Pronger...

If you accept that there are many franchises where Grigo and Zadorov would be considered the "top young prospects" in the organization, then the offer can be understood for its true value.

Right but they almost got Perry for Mike Comrie a few years earlier

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/oilers-comrie-must-pay-for-trade-1.399739

The Pronger situation is much different than OEL.

Edmonton just went on a cup run. Pronger asked for a trade and it got out. It became a circus and Edmonton wanted to get it over with.

IF OEL is available, I have no problem trading the package you listed.

However, I don't think Arizona is interested in trading him

 

[Jame]

Based on this logic, then, would you be willing to include Reinhart in a package for OEL? That's surely the first piece ARI asks for.

I believe top tier picks are near sure things.

No I would not trade Reinhart as I am looking to leverage futures, not our core pieces

I believe the trade board logic of what team's would ask for... and the history of trades are vastly different. I prefer to gauge on the information available.

 

[Jame]

Right but they almost got Perry for Mike Comrie a few years earlier

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/oilers-comrie-must-pay-for-trade-1.399739

I can't imagine what relevance you thought this had?

The Pronger situation is much different than OEL.
Edmonton just went on a cup run. Pronger asked for a trade and it got out. It became a circus and Edmonton wanted to get it over with.

This has been acknowledged.

IF OEL is available, I have no problem trading the package you listed.

awesome. many did have a problem with it... which is where the debate is being had.

However, I don't think Arizona is interested in trading him

Murray wasn't interested in trading Myers...

 

[Jame]

I just don't like the position that puts us in if the Eichel/Reinhart/Girgensons/OEL/Risto core is another piece short, especially when we don't know if half of those pieces you flipped for Larsson are actually "secondary" assets yet.

Excluding those 5, that leaves:
Larsson
Fasching
Compher
Bailey
Baptiste
Carrier

Bogosian
Pysyk
McCabe

2015 31 / 51
2016 Depth Picks
2017 / 2018 First

As trade ammunition. Meh.

You forgot Kane and Ennis

I'd view the core like this:

You need 3 core centers, with a mix of offensive,2 way, and shutdown skills
I'd view ours as 4 core centers with up to 2 of them shifting to wing as needed:
- 2 Franchise Centers: Eichel, Reinhart
- 1 Core Shutdown Center: Girgensons or Larsson

You need scoring depth in the form of size and/or speed players.
I'd view as additional parts of the core:
- 1 Speed and Power Scorer: Kane
- 1 Speed and Agility Scorer: Ennis
- 1 Shutdown/2 way Scorer: Girgensons or Larsson

That's 6 core forwards, that really address everything we need, besides the depth behind them... (which we also have in terms of a couple vets and prospects)

You need 4 Top D including mix of Shutdown, Playmaking, and Physical skills
(Given the hypothetical trade)
- 1 All Around Minute Eating Top Pair: Risto
- 1 All Around Dymanic Playmaking Tap Pair: OEL
- 1 Physical Shutdown Top Pair: Bogo
- 1 Complimentary Top 4: ????

My trade proposal Leaves me one piece short of a perfect and ridiculously deep core.

Traded: Zadorov, Grigorenko, 21st, 2016 1st, Hodgson

Remaining pieces to move around, trade, fill depth, groom for future:
Moulson
Gionta
Gorges
Pysyk
McCabe
Compher
Fasching
Baptiste
Bailey
31st and 51st pick
Plethora of 2016-17 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders
2017 / 2018 Firsts
Carrier
Florentino
oh... and free agency

If i were trying to envision it as lines... which i don't think is necessary right now....

XXXX-Eichel-Girgensons
Kane-Reinhart-Ennis
XXXX-Larsson-XXXX
XXXX-XXXX-XXXX

OEL-Risto
XXXX-Bogo

Eichel is going to be so good that whoever we put on the other wing is going to be just fine (Moulson, then Fasching). Giving him a hard forechecker, who goes to the net and can handle himself in his own zone is ideal as well (Girgensons)

That KRE line will absolutely feast if the Eichel draws the focus that his elite talent should.

Larsson can handle the shutdown role, and if he falters we can always rotate Girgensons there... even Reinhart if things go as suspected. but Larsson is going to need some talent around him... but we've got some vets in the near term (Gionta, Foligno), with plenty of time and space for guys to develop (Compher on his wing in a dual shutdown role is ideal), as well as plenty of mid range options in trade/free agency.

OEL-Risto... I'd have no problem expecting them to be one the best and most dynamic pairings in the NHL.... it's a Keith-Seabook pair.

Bogo needs a partner that adds some mobility. Can Pysyk switch to the Left? Will McCabe develop? We've got some time as Weber, Gorges, and free agents can fill in the short term

 

[Beerz]

Curious Jame... why do you offer basically the same package for OEL as you do for Marc Staal?

 

[Heraldic]

After Arizona lost McEichel, they're not trading OEL.

That franchise is nowhere near being able to trade it's only legitimate star player. They Are far away being a Toronto or Buffalo market wise.

If they got either of magic boys, it would be different.

 

[Jame]

Curious Jame... why do you offer basically the same package for OEL as you do for Marc Staal?

1. I think adding a top pair capable LD is priority
2. I've been told that my offer for Staal is CRAY CRAY, so clearly I should be able to get a much much better player.

I listen to feedback... contrary to popular belief

 

[Jame]

After Arizona lost McEichel, they're not trading OEL.

That franchise is nowhere near being able to trade it's only legitimate star player. They Are far away being a Toronto or Buffalo market wise.

If they got either of magic boys, it would be different.

OEL is an UFA in 4 seasons... so basically, he's on the trade block in 3 years or less.

Arizona is YEARS and YEARS away from contending...

They can cash OEL in now for a massive haul. He's not going to be around when they are relevant again.

 

[Gabrielor]

Arizona is now where we were in 2012, except they stripped most of their wealth already. They need a 2013 draft that the sabres had to stock the shelves. Or, we could give them that in the form of 5 first rounders for oel.

 

[Moskau]

Pronger wanted to be traded from Edmonton and players like OEL wont get traded in the salary cap era because you will likely never get a player like that back.