Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[ekill08x]

And you can bet that Lou is looking for ways to fix this roster. He’s not thinking down the road.

I have no problem with that, but in order for him to do that, selling off expiring contracts will give us something to offer in the trade market. Losing them for nothing makes improving this team almost impossible to improve next year. Its too late to make a move that's going to save this team this season. We don't have any chips left to trade that move the needle. Lou's biggest mistake was running it back with the same group. The Bo trade should have happened months ago. Too late now and this group would get steam-rolled for we even snuck in. If your goal isn't winning a cup, not selling just to sneak in to say we made the playoffs is just going to hinder our chances next year.

 

[doublechili]

Most threads here have become a cesspool.

I often wonder what an Isles board would have been like if the internet existed in 1978 and 1979.

1975 lost in semi-finals
1976 lost in semi-finals
1977 lost in semi-finals
1978 upset in quarter-finals
1979 lost in semi-finals to NYR

And then the team had a down 1979-80 regular season. People in the stands back then were calling for the heads of Torrey and Arbour, and they wanted Nystrom, Gillies, etc., etc., dealt away. I have never been part of the torches and pitchfork contingent as a result of that.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

When the team is a cesspool the boards turn into a cesspool. Shocking.

Some of the results have been disappointing, no doubt. But we're still 4-1-2 in our last 7. We got one of the biggest fish in Bo Horvat and are in a playoff race. And while one can certainly disagree with the strategy Lou is implementing (I have my doubts too), the Eeyores here are making it sound like it is 1999 (now in those days the team was a cesspool).

I get the frustration and wanting to vent (and I'm not looking for cheerleading), but the moaning and negativity is extraordinary.

Have at it, I guess...

 

[Doshell Propivo]

The big question here is “How can you fix this?” This GM has had 4 years and as some of have said, he was fortunate that Trotz was available otherwise we would not have had any success. Fast forward and we are essentially the same team not necessarily good enough to be slotted in as a playoff team but looked at more as a team fighting to get the 8th spot. We have no farm system anymore, not that it was great before . We have a small core of really good players but a crap load of bad contracts and need more speed and scoring. “Can it be fixed?” … I think even the hard core Lou supporters need to concede, Lou is not the guy to do it

I love you automatically assume that Lou was merely lucky to get Trotz and that without him it is a known fact that we would not have had ANY success. Fascinating. I also love how you simply "fast forward" through the three best seasons this team had in the last 30 years under Lou.

lol!

 

[Mike C]

When the team is a cesspool the boards turn into a cesspool. Shocking.

it's human nature.....it's like a 24 hour sports talk radio show minus the radio

since you're a BB fan, here's another thing that's tough to believe....Jacob DeGrom is being "held back a day or two....just precautionary they say!! " due to some left side tightness. this Clutterbuck couldn't even get to the first day of spring training

 

[Glory Days]

I often wonder what an Isles board would have been like if the internet existed in 1978 and 1979.

1975 lost in semi-finals
1976 lost in semi-finals
1977 lost in semi-finals
1978 upset in quarter-finals
1979 lost in semi-finals to NYR

And then the team had a down 1979-80 regular season. People in the stands back then were calling for the heads of Torrey and Arbour, and they wanted Nystrom, Gillies, etc., etc., dealt away. I have never been part of the torches and pitchfork contingent as a result of that.

I’m old enough to remember those years. Sometimes patience is a virtue. I’m a firm believer in not jumping to conclusions when things are at its best or worst as the truth is likely somewhere in between.

 

[gordie43]

This train of thought will absolutely continue to set us back even further. If we dont sell this teams future is going to be even bleaker than it already is. Thinking this group is good enough yet again is the definition of insanity. Nothing like losing players in FA and getting nothing in return when we have the worst system in the league and very little trade chips.

Future is not written. Say this team hits on an second rounder this year and maybe a third and fourth pan out the year after would you say the future is still bleak?

All is not lost.

 

[Zeeker]

Future is not written. Say this team hits on an second rounder this year and maybe a third and fourth pan out the year after would you say the future is still bleak?

All is not lost.

If future success relies on something as rare as getting a star player in the second round or later, then yes the future is bleak.

 

[Mike C]

I’m old enough to remember those years. Sometimes patience is a virtue. I’m a firm believer in not jumping to conclusions when things are at its best or worst as the truth is likely somewhere in between.

the difference in those teams is that they had great young talent that just couldn't get over the hump and didn't know how to win. if they didn't score that OT goal vs Philly, I'm not sure any cups would have happened....more of a mental thing than any other issue

this team does not have that same talent level, young players in their prime, versatility and on ice toughness. this present team is aged, slow, worn out and very inconsistant

back then, i always had optimistic hope, now i have trepidation

 

[gordie43]

If future success relies on something as rare as getting a star player in the second round or later, then yes the future is bleak.

Their track record on high first round picks isn’t exactly great either.

 

[JPIsles18]

Right on target.

Lee is a bit overpaid but he has unique value to the Isles and more importantly you’d be hard pressed to find another team that would take on the remainder of his contract.

Moving Nelson makes use worse in the short term and with Lou at the helm, I don’t see that happening. JGP and Cizikas might be alternative candidates to move though I can’t see them bringing back much.

I see Lou adding another piece soon but hopefully a mInor one at a cost that won’t hinder the franchise going forward.

The Isles are in a new building and need to be competitive. I don't understand moving Nelson because he will undoubtedly be the best player in the trade in the short and long term. The team has players that tend to be valued very highly for being "playoff" type players. Aside from Mayfield and Varlamov, they should also look to move Martin, JGP, and Cizikas. These players I believe can be moved at the deadline and bring back far more than they're worth.

As far as Lee goes, he's still pretty good. After the Horvat deal, we have 4 top line type players (Horvat, Barzal, Nelson, Lee), one 2nd line type player (Palmieri), two 3rd liners (JGP, Parise), and the rest are 4th liners or players that don't belong in the league (Bailey, Martin, Cizikas, Holmstrom, Fasching, Clutterbuck). Wahlstrom was a fringe 2nd/3rd line guy at the time of injury.

They should capitalize on moving some of these expensive "playoff-valuable" players that are overpaid, not Nelson or Lee. The team is still salvageable. Lou needs to understand which players are important and which ones aren't. The same players that were bad last year are still bad (except for Aho, who has been pretty good compared to expectations). He cannot triple down on the players listed above anymore. Teams may be more desperate adding guys like Martin, Cizikas, Pageau during playoff runs. Or perhaps I'm too hopeful.

 

[The Real JT]

The Isles are in a new building and need to be competitive. I don't understand moving Nelson because he will undoubtedly be the best player in the trade in the short and long term. The team has players that tend to be valued very highly for being "playoff" type players. Aside from Mayfield and Varlamov, they should also look to move Martin, JGP, and Cizikas. These players I believe can be moved at the deadline and bring back far more than they're worth.

As far as Lee goes, he's still pretty good. After the Horvat deal, we have 4 top line type players (Horvat, Barzal, Nelson, Lee), one 2nd line type player (Palmieri), two 3rd liners (JGP, Parise), and the rest are 4th liners or players that don't belong in the league (Bailey, Martin, Cizikas, Holmstrom, Fasching, Clutterbuck). Wahlstrom was a fringe 2nd/3rd line guy at the time of injury.

They should capitalize on moving some of these expensive "playoff-valuable" players that are overpaid, not Nelson or Lee. The team is still salvageable. Lou needs to understand which players are important and which ones aren't. The same players that were bad last year are still bad (except for Aho, who has been pretty good compared to expectations). He cannot triple down on the players listed above anymore. Teams may be more desperate adding guys like Martin, Cizikas, Pageau during playoff runs. Or perhaps I'm too hopeful.

I’m gonna have to disagree with you on your perceived value of the Isles players.

Clearly Nelson is the most valuable of those you mentioned. We agree there.

Lee, Martin and Cizikas get you little or nothing back. Lee in particular would not be sought after due to his age and potential future declining productivity. JGP’s value is a tough one to judge for me. He’ll be 31 years old next season and while he’s a good player he’s arguably overpaid at $5M/yr.

The elephant in the room we must accept is that current Isles players are not particularly valued by other teams across the league. That’s pretty clear to me based on how difficult it’s been to move some of our less desirable contracts over the last few years. Maybe that’s a byproduct of the notion that the Isles 2 recent playoff runs were related more to Trotz and his system than from the skills of our players.

 

[steveat]

Had a crazy trade idea.

Pulock, Bailey, Wahlstrom and a 2024 2nd for 25% retained Kane + 25% retained Toews + Seth Jones

OR something along those lines. Yes, I know...Jones is not worth his contract, but he's more of a number 1 than Dobson is. Maybe not these exact players, but something like it. I think Jones can do better with a real team to play with. I feel that the Hawks org thinks they are stuck with him which is why he was never in trade talks. Maybe add Pageau or Lee in there, but I think we can do it.

Nelson/Horvat/Toews/Zeeker down the middle. Yes, we just got older, but we would be a team with the highest FO winning % for sure and I think both toews and kane can play well for the next 3-4 years and we'd sign them to 3-4 year 4 m AAV or something?

OR just sign kane in the offseason because rumor has it...he does want to play for us.

Flame away!

 

[Torrey Redux]

I often wonder what an Isles board would have been like if the internet existed in 1978 and 1979.

1975 lost in semi-finals
1976 lost in semi-finals
1977 lost in semi-finals
1978 upset in quarter-finals
1979 lost in semi-finals to NYR

And then the team had a down 1979-80 regular season. People in the stands back then were calling for the heads of Torrey and Arbour, and they wanted Nystrom, Gillies, etc., etc., dealt away. I have never been part of the torches and pitchfork contingent as a result of that.

A question to be asked the next time the Islanders have a roster of young stars just reaching their prime and is one that is showing consistent excellence but just needs a complimentary piece or two to get over the hump.

This Islander team is not anywhere in that conversation nor has it been.

 

[CupHolders]

…I have never been part of the torches and pitchfork contingent…

You should try it… we have cookies!

 

[Skip To My Lou]

How bad does Toronto want to get out of the first round? Mayfield and or Varly for starters. Two teams in both Edm and Tor who have stalled in the playoffs, up against the cap, and have a playoff window right now with their stars. Something like this should be explored. Plus, Mayfield knows the sweet spot on Kutcherov's lower back. That should account for something.

Sorry, but if anything it'll cost them a 2nd, if we're lucky MAYBE a 1st. They're not giving their top prospects for rentals.

 

[ekill08x]

Future is not written. Say this team hits on an second rounder this year and maybe a third and fourth pan out the year after would you say the future is still bleak?

All is not lost.

and none of those players will have an impact for at LEAST 3 years. Players drafted in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th round don't just end up in the NHL that season. So yes...future of this team as it currently stands even with this hypothetical is bleak.

 

[Taswell]

Henry Thrun choosing FA over signing with the Ducks. Wouldn't mind adding him to the prospect pool, decent D prospect.

 

[ekill08x]

Their track record on high first round picks isn’t exactly great either.

so you think we are going to hit on 2s, 3s and 4s with this logic?

 

[periferal]

I often wonder what an Isles board would have been like if the internet existed in 1978 and 1979.

1975 lost in semi-finals
1976 lost in semi-finals
1977 lost in semi-finals
1978 upset in quarter-finals
1979 lost in semi-finals to NYR

And then the team had a down 1979-80 regular season. People in the stands back then were calling for the heads of Torrey and Arbour, and they wanted Nystrom, Gillies, etc., etc., dealt away. I have never been part of the torches and pitchfork contingent as a result of that.

Oh jeez...Are we really comparing the 22-23 Islanders to maybe the best team in the history of sports?

Bossy, Bourne, Gillies, Morrow, Nystrom, Potvin, Sutter, Tonelli, and Trottier were all 27 or younger in the 79-80 Season. The only noteworthy players on the current team 27 or under are Barzal, Horvat, Dobson, and Sorokin...With Lee, Nelson, Bailey, Martin, Cizikas, Mayfield, Pageau, Palmieri all being over 30. Plus the 79-80 team were coached by a top 5 coach in the history of the NHL in Al Arbour.

How many players on this team are going to have their jerseys hanging from the rafters - Much less be in the Hall of Fame?

The talent and coaching gap between the two teams is a Grand Canyon sized chasm, and they didn't have to deal with a salary cap. Also Bill Torrey >>>> Lou "here's my 1st for your average player" Lamoriello.

To look at the current New York Islanders and given the lack of elite talent, the holes on the roster, the lack of futures to trade, bottom 5 farm system, limited cap space, and poor coaching situation and not be notably concerned about this core's ability to win a Cup I think is an act in denial at best.

I think 3-5 years from now those of us who don't check their brains at the door and think Lou can do no wrong are going to look back at these years as wasted time where we didn't come close to a Cup because...It was actually Barry Trotz who was able to overcome this roster's deficiencies. Now that he's gone and the team is older, the roster, and thus Lou, are exposed. And many out there think because most of this roster "were 1 goal away from the finals just 3 years ago" that means that it's likely to happen again.

It isn't.

And the sooner we accept that major changes need to happen to get this team back on track, I'm very confident we're just slowly sinking into years of seasons just like this one - Nowhere near a Cup or a prospect like Bedard.

Patience can be a beautiful thing and I'm all for it...Just not when you have a bad coach behind the bench of the 2nd oldest team in the league.

 

[JPIsles18]

I’m gonna have to disagree with you on your perceived value of the Isles players.

Clearly Nelson is the most valuable of those you mentioned. We agree there.

Lee, Martin and Cizikas get you little or nothing back. Lee in particular would not be sought after due to his age and potential future declining productivity. JGP’s value is a tough one to judge for me. He’ll be 31 years old next season and while he’s a good player he’s arguably overpaid at $5M/yr.

The elephant in the room we must accept is that current Isles players are not particularly valued by other teams across the league. That’s pretty clear to me based on how difficult it’s been to move some of our less desirable contracts over the last few years. Maybe that’s a byproduct of the notion that the Isles 2 recent playoff runs were related more to Trotz and his system than from the skills of our players.

My apologies. I did not mean to convey that the players you listed will bring much back. My point was, this is our chance to get out of these contracts and get some value. Smart teams won't want anything to do with those players, including JGP (who is bad value at his current contract). If the cap wasn't squeezed, that'd be a different story. But with 32 teams and a tight cap, you cannot afford expensive bottom 6 forwards who don't live up to their contracts.

My point was, we can get rid of them now while teams would take them without a sweetener.

 

[Glorydays22]

Had a crazy trade idea.

Pulock, Bailey, Wahlstrom and a 2024 2nd for 25% retained Kane + 25% retained Toews + Seth Jones

OR something along those lines. Yes, I know...Jones is not worth his contract, but he's more of a number 1 than Dobson is. Maybe not these exact players, but something like it. I think Jones can do better with a real team to play with. I feel that the Hawks org thinks they are stuck with him which is why he was never in trade talks. Maybe add Pageau or Lee in there, but I think we can do it.

Nelson/Horvat/Toews/Zeeker down the middle. Yes, we just got older, but we would be a team with the highest FO winning % for sure and I think both toews and kane can play well for the next 3-4 years and we'd sign them to 3-4 year 4 m AAV or something?

OR just sign kane in the offseason because rumor has it...he does want to play for us.

Flame away!

Wow, really? this is so bad I don't even know how to comment on this. We are NOT making the playoffs. We don't need anymore over 30 yr old players past their prime and a extremely bad contract in Seth Jones.

 

[CupHolders]

Oh jeez...Are we really comparing the 22-23 Islanders to maybe the best team in the history of sports?

Bossy, Bourne, Gillies, Morrow, Nystrom, Potvin, Sutter, Tonelli, and Trottier were all 27 or younger in the 79-80 Season. The only noteworthy players on the current team 27 or under are Barzal, Horvat, Dobson, and Sorokin...With Lee, Nelson, Bailey, Martin, Cizikas, Mayfield, Pageau, Palmieri all being over 30. Plus the 79-80 team were coached by a top 5 coach in the history of the NHL in Al Arbour.

How many players on this team are going to have their jerseys hanging from the rafters - Much less be in the Hall of Fame?

The talent and coaching gap between the two teams is a Grand Canyon sized chasm, and they didn't have to deal with a salary cap. Also Bill Torrey >>>> Lou "here's my 1st for your average player" Lamoriello.

To look at the current New York Islanders and given the lack of elite talent, the holes on the roster, the lack of futures to trade, bottom 5 farm system, limited cap space, and poor coaching situation and not be notably concerned about this core's ability to win a Cup I think is an act in denial at best.

I think 3-5 years from now those of us who don't check their brains at the door and think Lou can do no wrong are going to look back at these years as wasted time where we didn't come close to a Cup because...It was actually Barry Trotz who was able to overcome this roster's deficiencies. Now that he's gone and the team is older, the roster, and thus Lou, are exposed. And many out there think because most of this roster "were 1 goal away from the finals just 3 years ago" that means that it's likely to happen again.

It isn't.

And the sooner we accept that major changes need to happen to get this team back on track, I'm very confident we're just slowly sinking into years of seasons just like this one - Nowhere near a Cup or a prospect like Bedard.

Patience can be a beautiful thing and I'm all for it...Just not when you have a bad coach behind the bench of the 2nd oldest team in the league.

I’m pretty sure you misunderstood the point. The post wasn’t about comparing those respective Islanders teams. It was about the relative nature of fandom going to hyperbolic extremes. While the Islander dynasty teams are seen as some sacrosanct gold standard… @doublechili is pointing out that those very teams were being called to be dismantled by the fanbase at the time.

 

[Chardo]

Last 7 games, the team has won 10 of possible 14 points. That's a 117 point pace over a season. But the wheels have fallen off and time for a rebuild.

 

[doublechili]

Oh jeez...Are we really comparing the 22-23 Islanders to maybe the best team in the history of sports?

That's exactly what I was doing. You got me.

Or, you can read it again and consider the possibility that I just meant the words that I wrote.