Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[doublechili]

Yeah...Use them quotes around "traded," because it definitely did not turn out "best" for us. Actual best would have been to literally TRADE Tavares and get 2-3 top assets that might have been the difference 2 years later between falling a goal short of the finals...And a Stanley Cup.

I don't know if it was snow or Malkin, but when a valuable player leaves your franchise for zero, someone f***ed up. By definition that cannot be the "best" possible outcome for us.

Heck I'd rather have Tavares and his 11M contract than have Pageau and Palmieri (and Ross Johnston). The idea of having a Tavares/Barzal/Nelson center lineup would be amazing. Remember that Barzal had his best season playing the #2 center role behind Tavares. And Nelson as any teams' #3 center is .

Elite talents >>> Decent talents. This should be the goal, but for whatever reasons both snow and Lou cannot deliver on this and we continue to add "middle-6" forwards and defensemen.




Oh right - Cap space. Totally forgot about that. What a fool I am. My bad and I stand corrected...Let's not qualify Barzal next offseason and let him walk for nothing.

More cap space!!! Yay!

I think I liked nuance better than sarcasm....

Management (probably ownership) decided trading Tavares for futures was worse than taking a risk that he would walk for nothing. In hindsight obviously they lost the gamble so now we're having this discussion instead of "they traded away the face of our franchise" (because you know Tavares would have said he was hoping to re-sign with the Isles...).

Don't assume Nelson would be playing C. If Tavares stayed Nelson may have stayed at LW and might still stink. Or if he was at 3C, we'd have 1/3 of our cap space tied up in our 1C, 2C and 3C. Cap space matters. If a big salary walks "for nothing", a team gains cap space, which is not nothing. CGY did in effect "trade" Gaudreau for Kadri and $2.75M in cap space. That may not be a bad "trade" at all, especially come playoff time (you remember Gaudreau and the playoffs, right? ).

Anyway, why deal with hypotheticals when we have a real world option:

trade Mayfield now?

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Yeah...Use them quotes around "traded," because it definitely did not turn out "best" for us. Actual best would have been to literally TRADE Tavares and get 2-3 top assets that might have been the difference 2 years later between falling a goal short of the finals...And a Stanley Cup.

I don't know if it was snow or Malkin, but when a valuable player leaves your franchise for zero, someone f***ed up. By definition that cannot be the "best" possible outcome for us.

Heck I'd rather have Tavares and his 11M contract than have Pageau and Palmieri (and Ross Johnston). The idea of having a Tavares/Barzal/Nelson center lineup would be amazing. Remember that Barzal had his best season playing the #2 center role behind Tavares. And Nelson as any teams' #3 center is .

Elite talents >>> Decent talents. This should be the goal, but for whatever reasons both snow and Lou cannot deliver on this and we continue to add "middle-6" forwards and defensemen.

NYI and Tavares signed a contract. Tavares honored the contract and NYI paid him. No one f***ed up.

They could've traded him or they could've used the final year to convince him to re-sign (and have the 8th year as leverage). They obviously chose the latter. Tavares strung them along. So it goes.

 

[xECK29x]

Guys move it along or say nothing more about Tavares anything else like this is going to be tagged for tagging this OT.

 

[periferal]

Management (probably ownership) decided trading Tavares for futures was worse than taking a risk that he would walk for nothing. In hindsight obviously they lost the gamble so now we're having this discussion instead of "they traded away the face of our franchise" (because you know Tavares would have said he was hoping to re-sign with the Isles...).

Except that once Tavares didn't resign in July of 2017 management/ownership should have then assumed that Tavares was going to leave.

As you mentioned they absolutely lost and no matter how you want to spin it...It cost us, and maybe even cost us the Cup in 2020/2021.

Anyway, why deal with hypotheticals when we have a real world option:

trade Mayfield now?

Not sure if you're serious, but I would trade Mayfield before I'd resign him next summer. That next contract he gets is going to be an albatross. For years we need more high end talent and he's going to wind up getting about 4M/year for 4-5 years for being a 4th D-man (if not bottom pairing). That's way too much cap space spent on that.

 

[doublechili]

Not sure if you're serious, but I would trade Mayfield before I'd resign him next summer. That next contract he gets is going to be an albatross. For years we need more high end talent and he's going to wind up getting about 4M/year for 4-5 years for being a 4th D-man (if not bottom pairing). That's way too much cap space spent on that.

I was serious. Mayfield may be able to fetch a 1st round pick or a good young prospect, and the Isles could lose him for nothing next summer. Should they trade him now to maximize assets?

 

[Mike C]

I was serious. Mayfield may be able to fetch a 1st round pick or a good young prospect, and the Isles could lose him for nothing next summer. Should they trade him now to maximize assets?

I might wait to see how the playoff picture looks as the season progresses. A healthy Mayfield may bode well in that quest. No Mayfield at all gives us less of a chance. The back line is thin enough as it is in my view

 

[Mike C]

NYI and Tavares signed a contract. Tavares honored the contract and NYI paid him. No one f***ed up.

They could've traded him or they could've used the final year to convince him to re-sign (and have the 8th year as leverage). They obviously chose the latter. Tavares strung them along. So it goes.

It's the nature of business. Trust nobody at their word. Sad and harsh lesson but also reality

Sometimes the truth doesn't match the wish

 

[Strummergas]

So f***ing boring...

 

[Mike C]

So f***ing boring...

Baseball games get under way soon. That'll liven up the evening eh?

 

[Islanders4Cups]

It’s about who controls who goes the free agency. The player or the franchise. Hopefully lessoned learned. Set a deadline. (period)

If we ever have a player bigger than the franchise (like two or three cups in) then there can be an exception

 

[Mike C]

It’s about who controls who goes the free agency. The player or the franchise. Hopefully lessoned learned. Set a deadline. (period)

If we ever have a player bigger than the franchise (like two or three cups in) then there can be an exception

All those corny cliches are borne out of truth like not letting the cooks run the kitchen, who's the grown up and who's the kid, etc

 

[SI]

Every ounce of my being felt Winnipeg would have been the IDEAL destination for Tavares at that trade deadline.

They ended up getting Stastny and then were in the conference final, just centimeters from an SC appearance.

Imagine if Tavares had been the acquisition instead?

And they had assets out of the ying-yang. They paid a pretty penny for Stastny, but they had a lot more ammunition.

Had Tavares only been available...

Tavares had a M- NTC, so not sure he would have excepted any deal.

I quite remember reading that he didn't want to be traded and wanted to play out the season. I believe he was also on record saying this as well. I'll try to find it.

 

[LeapOnOver]

If I may quote the great PK Cronin here.... "Case by case." The Tavares and Vanek situation were anything but "exact." That's why you "don't get it" here.


The Vanek Situation:

• Literally everyone with a pulse knew Vanek was going to sign with Minny the following offseason and he had ZERO shot to resign him.
• ...That's why the Sabres traded him in the 1st place - SO THEY WOULDN'T LOSE HIM FOR NOTHING THAT NEXT OFFSEASON.
• Then Snow not only decided to trade for him anyway, but embarrassingly overpaid for him.
• Then after a few months of snow trying to resign Vanek in vein, teams knew that snow was egg-faced and had to deal him. That's why he got "pennies on the dollar."
• The reason people hated the Vanek situation was because snow turned a 1st, 2nd, and Matt Moulson into a 2nd and Sebastian Collberg just a few months later.
• And even worse - The Sabres even flipped Moulson that trade deadline and got more back than snow did for Vanek.

The Tavares Situation:

• The dude was the only team he played with for a decade. If he couldn't commit to resigning with the Isles by that previous summer then he never should have been on the opening night roster.
• You keep harping on me saying the Isles should have traded him at the deadline, but what I really wanted them to do it's not let it get close to that point. You can go back and read my posts, but basically when Tavares didn't resign on July 1, 2017 I wanted him gone then. Both Carey Price and Drew Doughty had recently committed to long-term deals with their respective teams on July 1, so scarily eye-opening that Tavares wouldn't.
• So if you trade Tavares before the season (like Chicago did with Seth Jones and Calgary just did with Tkachuk), then you don't have to make a tougher decision at the trade deadline if your team is in the playoff hunt.
• Not only that, but the Isles might have been a stronger team had they traded Tavares prior to the 17-18 season depending on the assets returned and cap space opened up.
• Tomas Tatar was traded that trade deadline for a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks. That would have been below the floor of what Tavares would have gotten back, but even just a 1st round pick alone would've been better than letting a #1 center walk for zero.

In the end both situations were different, but they couldn't have played them each much worse than they did.

#Nuance

Okay so now explain why Calgary handled Gaudreau poorly. I like how you use Monday morning quarterback knowledge to assess things, (everybody in the world knew he would sign with Minny) but still claim Snow overpaid for Vanek. None of the pieces amounted to much. You remind me of the guy on the main boards that just said everybody and their mother knew the Ladd signing was terrible.

 

[Mike C]

Okay so now explain why Calgary handled Gaudreau poorly. I like how you use Monday morning quarterback knowledge to assess things, (everybody in the world knew he would sign with Minny) but still claim Snow overpaid for Vanek. None of the pieces amounted to much. You remind me of the guy on the main boards that just said everybody and their mother knew the Ladd signing was terrible.

Crazy new world when everybody's mother follows hockey. Mine only knew enough to use the sticks to keep me in line

 

[Isles72]

I was serious. Mayfield may be able to fetch a 1st round pick or a good young prospect, and the Isles could lose him for nothing next summer. Should they trade him now to maximize assets?

I wouldnt be shy to pull the trigger on mayfield for a 1st round pick or good prospect mainly because I think Hutton is ready (he's 27)

 

[Skidrow11]

Okay so now explain why Calgary handled Gaudreau poorly. I like how you use Monday morning quarterback knowledge to assess things, (everybody in the world knew he would sign with Minny) but still claim Snow overpaid for Vanek. None of the pieces amounted to much. You remind me of the guy on the main boards that just said everybody and their mother knew the Ladd signing was terrible.

I was reading hockey boards back then with Vanek. Alot guys were saying he's going to sign with Minnesota. If fans knew it and the isles didn't then they got what they deserved. More likely was the islanders for quite some time, were put of touch with reality. They looked in the mirror and saw a beauty queen. Many saw a train wreck. My guess is, when Jt signed with the other team , snow, was shocked. Who would leave the greatest team ever assembled? that's how snow viewed his work of art. These types that get these jobs often have a over abundance of confidence that's not accurate to say the least. The islanders not trading JT, was more about putting off to as long as possible, the admission that the GM is a failure, the owner is a failure, the team needs changes. Because as soon as you trade Jt, your admitting you messed up. Tavares to islander fans was just as strong if not stronger than Judge is to Yankee fans. Imagine the Yankees only making the playoffs half as much as they have the last 8 years.. and Judge said he wanted to play out his final season, it wasn't about money, and then decide what he what team he wants to play for. Cashman would be getting destroyed all year on wfan. And he probably still doesn't trade Judge. Because it would be regime.change time immediately after..

 

[doublechili]

I wouldnt be shy to pull the trigger on mayfield for a 1st round pick or good prospect mainly because I think Hutton is ready (he's 27)

I wouldn't do it - partly because Mayfield's physical aspect makes him a great partner for a smaller, skilled LHD (which we need for PP since we don't really have that in the top 4).

I was just asking the question because it's easy to play the hindsight game but not so easy when we don't know how the upcoming season will turn out....

 

[leeroggy]

Mayfield is a very different case than Pajama Boy was due to the sweetheart cap hit

But let's not kid ourselves. Even if the Cap goes up $5 million for next year, there are 2 choices that are most likely:

1) We resign ourselves to the fact he will play the season because of the possibility of a playoff run without extending him

2) He leaves us to recoup the money he would have gotten on a shorter deal, because SOMEONE will throw $4-5 million per at him

So, the best scenario for US is we are not contenders, and we trade him at the deadline. At least on managing this asset.

Of course, if we are struggling (most likely scenario would be a lengthy Barzal injury for that to happen), it might be better to trade Pulock and extend Mayfield for less money. But that's the 1% type of solution.

 

[rkatec68]

Mayfield is a very different case than Pajama Boy was due to the sweetheart cap hit

But let's not kid ourselves. Even if the Cap goes up $5 million for next year, there are 2 choices that are most likely:

1) We resign ourselves to the fact he will play the season because of the possibility of a playoff run without extending him

2) He leaves us to recoup the money he would have gotten on a shorter deal, because SOMEONE will throw $4-5 million per at him

So, the best scenario for US is we are not contenders, and we trade him at the deadline. At least on managing this asset.

Of course, if we are struggling (most likely scenario would be a lengthy Barzal injury for that to happen), it might be better to trade Pulock and extend Mayfield for less money. But that's the 1% type of solution.

Trading Pulock in year 1 of his new 8 year extension with a full NTC?

 

[gordie43]

So, the best scenario for US is we are not contenders, and we trade him at the deadline. At least on managing this asset.

I would say that is worst case scenario for this team of vets and for us fans.

Sometimes teams just lose players to free agency.

 

[Skidrow11]

Mayfield is easy to lose they didn't give a 1st rounder up to trade for him.if he leaves the isles robbed him , with the value they got and then never paying him when it was time. I would be pissed off about it. Agents will use his career as a example of why a player should demand more $$ from teams and sooner.

 

[The Real JT]

I wouldnt be shy to pull the trigger on mayfield for a 1st round pick or good prospect mainly because I think Hutton is ready (he's 27)

I hope Hutton can be a serviceable 6/7 Dman. That’s his ceiling though and I’ll add that your reference to his age is a negative and not an asset. If you haven’t made it to the show by that age then legitimate questions arise.

 

[JTToilinginToronto]

Mayfield is a very different case than Pajama Boy was due to the sweetheart cap hit

But let's not kid ourselves. Even if the Cap goes up $5 million for next year, there are 2 choices that are most likely:

1) We resign ourselves to the fact he will play the season because of the possibility of a playoff run without extending him

2) He leaves us to recoup the money he would have gotten on a shorter deal, because SOMEONE will throw $4-5 million per at him

So, the best scenario for US is we are not contenders, and we trade him at the deadline. At least on managing this asset.

Of course, if we are struggling (most likely scenario would be a lengthy Barzal injury for that to happen), it might be better to trade Pulock and extend Mayfield for less money. But that's the 1% type of solution.

It's okay to lose most players if you keep them in their UFA years if you're a freaking playoff team. The goal is to win a Cup.

The problem with losing UFAs for nothing is 1) if they're a star player and they would have returned a hefty price and 2) if you keep an UFA in a non-playoff year.

Unfortunately John Tavares in 2017-18 checked both those boxes.

 

[seafoam]

NYI is trying to win this season, any shot of moving Mayfield would have already been tipped off with a Stralman 1 year deal/PTO.

 

[periferal]

I was serious. Mayfield may be able to fetch a 1st round pick or a good young prospect, and the Isles could lose him for nothing next summer. Should they trade him now to maximize assets?

They should, but since we already know that Lou does NOT trade any roster player/veteran unless he's FORCED to, there's not only no chance he's trading Mayfield, but you should fully expect him to be given a bad/long-term contract next summer.