Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[leeroggy]

How the hell did this turn into ANOTHER Tavares discussion??

Can we not have a separate thread for discussing anything and everything Tavares??

For God's sake, if I lived in Nittedal, I'd accommodate all types of discussions!

She looks single . . .

 

[leeroggy]

The thing that really bothered me about Tavares is that the situation really clarified what *he* thought of himself. That whole thing with presentations from teams, and then announcing it on twitter with a photo made it feel like he was trying for this Lebron-style free agency spectacle. Lebron was endlessly criticized for it... and he's Lebron. John Tavares is no Lebron.

Let's face it, the Islanders were a tire fire, and nobody expected the quick turnaround. And that quick turnaround, frankly, revealed a lot about John Tavares's ability to be a leader. Like, not good.

Malkin might have screwed up the negotiation, but at least he's a guy who earned the right to be confident about his ability to negotiate.

So true about his leadership skills. And Leaf fans took about a year to understand when we talked about it, we knew what we were talking about.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Not all of us. I was on trade him in the summer if he hadn't extended and have a LOT of posts of Hockey trades we could have tried.

I was reamed by a lot of people here, but it was clear to me he was mouthing the normal platitudes but was intent on testing the market (and likely had been hoping TML would be competitive on an offer). As far as Malkin promising to build a winner? Irrelevant. He was leaving to Toronto if he could, and a few other locations if TML wasn't competitive. Anyone who denies that looking back is delusional, he CLEARLY showed that intent at his TML signing press conference.

Why would Tavares possibly believe Malkin about building a winner? That's an ASSUMPTION, not a pledge. This was about him wanting to fulfill a childhood dream if he could. He asked not to be traded at the deadline. HE PLAYED MALKIN; let's not sugarcoat it any other way.

As Perif noted, imagine the two conference final runs if we also had a Parayko, a Jaden Schwartz, etc., as the extra piece or two. It would take me a long time to find them, but I probably came up with 4 or 5 hockey trades that were reasonable if we had traded him that summer.

Every ounce of my being felt Winnipeg would have been the IDEAL destination for Tavares at that trade deadline.

They ended up getting Stastny and then were in the conference final, just centimeters from an SC appearance.

Imagine if Tavares had been the acquisition instead?

And they had assets out of the ying-yang. They paid a pretty penny for Stastny, but they had a lot more ammunition.

Had Tavares only been available...

 

[crasherino]

I concur with your recollection at the time.

I think a number of regular posters here were firmly of the belief that he was re-signing with the Isles. Or at least, they were taking the situation much more chill than the threat of him walking away for absolutely nothing should have allowed them to be.

When he did walk, the feeling was then that he was naturally the bad guy for approaching and dealing with the situation in the manner he did. He duped all of Islanderville.

Of course, the realists among us, especially the handful that were pining for his being traded at the deadline if he hadn't re-signed by then, were absolutely furious with management for allowing this to take place. Especially in light of Snow's regular calming of the concerns, as if there was nothing to worry about.

That the Snow-era ended as a result thereof went to show that this handful wasn't the only ones thinking that way.



That is yet to be seen, of course.

I'd say never underestimate what it can mean to a team when, in essence, it trades out key spearheads of any recent success.

I mean, the last five years there have been about the evolution and production of Gaudreau, Monahan, and Tkachuk. What does their departure mean to Lindholm, Hanifin, Andersson, Backlund, etc.???

No matter how good they are, it's gonna take a while for Huberdeau, Kadri, and Weegar to step into their footsteps.

I think you're right - most people (myself included) couldn't fathom Tavares walking away. And the way the season, and new ownership, developed, I don't think the Islanders could have traded him. He was too intertwined with the team. In essence, it was John Tavares and the New York Islanders.

If ownership came in at the outset and said "We love John Tavares and we will do everything in our power to sign him to an extension before the season starts - or before Christmas at latest" he would have been on notice that he had to shit or get off the pot. But they didn't approach it that way. They approached it as the past regime did - the franchise was built around Tavares and he gets to call the shots.

Which is one of the reasons I hold Tavares more accountable than other players in his situation in the past. He knew full well the status he held here. He knew that him leaving would devastate this franchise. In my mind, he had the moral duty to at least be.....more forthcoming with his intentions or status. He basically demanded not to be traded at the TDL and made statements like "I hope it will work out" essentially leading a hamstrung team down the primrose path. The team really had no choice but to believe him - at least at that point in time when they already were approaching John Tavares as life long Islander as fact. Yes - he was free to do what he wanted (and he did), but that is the reason I think Tavares is scum. He knew the lay of the land, he understood how much the Islanders - as an organization depended on him - and he took them down to the very last second instead of gracefully exiting.

More than anything, Tavares changed the landscape of how teams deal with their superstars going forward. No team will ever allow themselves to get in the same situation - at least, not with their eyes closed. Teams know now that come September, if your player isn't signed, its on you to recoup something from them. You can't expect a player to pull a Stamkos and stay where he is for less money.

 

[danteipp]

Every ounce of my being felt Winnipeg would have been the IDEAL destination for Tavares at that trade deadline.

They ended up getting Stastny and then were in the conference final, just centimeters from an SC appearance.

Imagine if Tavares had been the acquisition instead?

And they had assets out of the ying-yang. They paid a pretty penny for Stastny, but they had a lot more ammunition.

Had Tavares only been available...

Lol, exiling Tavares and Aryne to Winnipeg would have been fantastic. Even if only for a couple months.

 

[IslesNorway]

Training cap roster revealed. No PTOs.

Islanders Announce 2022 Training Camp Roster | New York Islanders

34 forwards, 18 defensemen and seven goaltenders invited to training camp

www.nhl.com

 

[leeroggy]

Every ounce of my being felt Winnipeg would have been the IDEAL destination for Tavares at that trade deadline.

They ended up getting Stastny and then were in the conference final, just centimeters from an SC appearance.

Imagine if Tavares had been the acquisition instead?

And they had assets out of the ying-yang. They paid a pretty penny for Stastny, but they had a lot more ammunition.

Had Tavares only been available...

When you look at the 2016-17 Winnipeg roster and think about what type of trade could have happened in the 2017 roster, what could we have gotten? Ehlers was just coming off 25G/39A at age 20 and Connor hadn't played yet.

Connor and Roslovic and a pick would have been quite possible over that summer. With that, we likely don't make the Pageau trade either. Winnipeg had the 24th overall pick in 2017 and took Vesalainen.

Lee - MB - Connor - pretty sweet first line

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

Every year, the next draft is *super deep*.

 

[Mike C]

Training cap roster revealed. No PTOs.

Islanders Announce 2022 Training Camp Roster | New York Islanders

34 forwards, 18 defensemen and seven goaltenders invited to training camp

www.nhl.com

how's it going buddy? ready for the season i'm sure!

i wanted to ask if you thought it might be ok if my son (age 14) can play in the first goal of the game competition this season. we watch all the games together and i'd say he is a very educated fan (some might say more so than his dad hahaha) he doesn't post out here but i could put his picks in with mine. no big deal if it's not cool but he'd have a blast doing it, as i did when i started last Jan. thanks for the consideration!


LET'S GO ISLES!!

 

[Dutch Frost]

Every year, the next draft is *super deep*.

and then we draft said player from super deep draft ONLY to let him stay in the minors for an endless period of time because we need to let them develop. Of course by that time we trade them for a 3rd/4th liner whose already in the NHL.

 

[IslesNorway]

how's it going buddy? ready for the season i'm sure!

i wanted to ask if you thought it might be ok if my son (age 14) can play in the first goal of the game competition this season. we watch all the games together and i'd say he is a very educated fan (some might say more so than his dad hahaha) he doesn't post out here but i could put his picks in with mine. no big deal if it's not cool but he'd have a blast doing it, as i did when i started last Jan. thanks for the consideration!


LET'S GO ISLES!!

Of course! it's open to everyone. Does he have a username? if not, then we just need to figure out a way to keep his choices apart from yours. I'm looking forward to running it again, and it will be back up in the days before the start of the season!

 

[Skidrow11]

I think you're right - most people (myself included) couldn't fathom Tavares walking away. And the way the season, and new ownership, developed, I don't think the Islanders could have traded him. He was too intertwined with the team. In essence, it was John Tavares and the New York Islanders.

If ownership came in at the outset and said "We love John Tavares and we will do everything in our power to sign him to an extension before the season starts - or before Christmas at latest" he would have been on notice that he had to shit or get off the pot. But they didn't approach it that way. They approached it as the past regime did - the franchise was built around Tavares and he gets to call the shots.

Which is one of the reasons I hold Tavares more accountable than other players in his situation in the past. He knew full well the status he held here. He knew that him leaving would devastate this franchise. In my mind, he had the moral duty to at least be.....more forthcoming with his intentions or status. He basically demanded not to be traded at the TDL and made statements like "I hope it will work out" essentially leading a hamstrung team down the primrose path. The team really had no choice but to believe him - at least at that point in time when they already were approaching John Tavares as life long Islander as fact. Yes - he was free to do what he wanted (and he did), but that is the reason I think Tavares is scum. He knew the lay of the land, he understood how much the Islanders - as an organization depended on him - and he took them down to the very last second instead of gracefully exiting.

More than anything, Tavares changed the landscape of how teams deal with their superstars going forward. No team will ever allow themselves to get in the same situation - at least, not with their eyes closed. Teams know now that come September, if your player isn't signed, its on you to recoup something from them. You can't expect a player to pull a Stamkos and stay where he is for less money.

You do realize your unable to view the situation pragmatically. Your the scorned woman whose husband left her to upgrade. If you were not a islander fan, or your were a islander fan like myself who had been completely utterly disgusted with the whole Wang, snow, dipietro, all I the family, malkin buys the team and still keeps the whole entourage together...if you were like me your view point was "he's very likely to leave unless they win at least 2 rounds and look on verge of being a cup contender. Winning a cup is extremely important to top players in any sport and he has watched crosby, malkin, win..while isles don't even win playoff rounds. He wasn't playing out his final season due to $ disagreements like Judge is. So obviously Tavares wasn't very happy. If he was very happy he'd be scared he could be traded the isles could use his cap space on another player. A player who's worried about leaving or cares alot to stay signs a extension." That's how I viewed it because I don't get emotional about it. Most hockey fans not involved with islanders if they had all the information would look at it how I do. What players say in interviews is irrelevant. Judge says he wants to stay with the Yankees. I can tell you he doesn't care that much I'd he stays with the Yankees. If they had traded for Soto they would not even be offering him a contract in October. Top players don't have emotional connections to teams in most cases unless they've won championships. It was always silly to think tavarws could only put on a islander jersey. He's worn probably 60 jerseys in his life before that one.

 

[Mike C]

Of course! it's open to everyone. Does he have a username? if not, then we just need to figure out a way to keep his choices apart from yours. I'm looking forward to running it again, and it will be back up in the days before the start of the season!

when i entered him in the stanley cup bracket i just put him in as Thomas C......i will definitely make sure to clearly delineate us by name or i can just put in 2 seperate posts each game. whatever is easiest for you


thanks for the approval!!

 

[Mike C]

You do realize your unable to view the situation pragmatically. Your the scorned woman whose husband left her to upgrade. If you were not a islander fan, or your were a islander fan like myself who had been completely utterly disgusted with the whole Wang, snow, dipietro, all I the family, malkin buys the team and still keeps the whole entourage together...if you were like me your view point was "he's very likely to leave unless they win at least 2 rounds and look on verge of being a cup contender. Winning a cup is extremely important to top players in any sport and he has watched crosby, malkin, win..while isles don't even win playoff rounds. He wasn't playing out his final season due to $ disagreements like Judge is. So obviously Tavares wasn't very happy. If he was very happy he'd be scared he could be traded the isles could use his cap space on another player. A player who's worried about leaving or cares alot to stay signs a extension." That's how I viewed it because I don't get emotional about it. Most hockey fans not involved with islanders if they had all the information would look at it how I do. What players say in interviews is irrelevant. Judge says he wants to stay with the Yankees. I can tell you he doesn't care that much I'd he stays with the Yankees. If they had traded for Soto they would not even be offering him a contract in October. Top players don't have emotional connections to teams in most cases unless they've won championships. It was always silly to think tavarws could only put on a islander jersey. He's worn probably 60 jerseys in his life before that one.

and 60 matching pairs of pajamas baby!!!!

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

You do realize your unable to view the situation pragmatically. Your the scorned woman whose husband left her to upgrade. If you were not a islander fan, or your were a islander fan like myself who had been completely utterly disgusted with the whole Wang, snow, dipietro, all I the family, malkin buys the team and still keeps the whole entourage together...if you were like me your view point was "he's very likely to leave unless they win at least 2 rounds and look on verge of being a cup contender. Winning a cup is extremely important to top players in any sport and he has watched crosby, malkin, win..while isles don't even win playoff rounds. He wasn't playing out his final season due to $ disagreements like Judge is. So obviously Tavares wasn't very happy. If he was very happy he'd be scared he could be traded the isles could use his cap space on another player. A player who's worried about leaving or cares alot to stay signs a extension." That's how I viewed it because I don't get emotional about it. Most hockey fans not involved with islanders if they had all the information would look at it how I do. What players say in interviews is irrelevant. Judge says he wants to stay with the Yankees. I can tell you he doesn't care that much I'd he stays with the Yankees. If they had traded for Soto they would not even be offering him a contract in October. Top players don't have emotional connections to teams in most cases unless they've won championships. It was always silly to think tavarws could only put on a islander jersey. He's worn probably 60 jerseys in his life before that one.

Read Jonathan Haidt. People start with a conclusion and work their way backwards.

 

[LeapOnOver]

For each his own, but this assessment is counter to what we're all hearing from the big publications and independents in the scouting world. And as opposed to most fans, these agencies have access to extended materials to place all these players under the microscope with.

It's a special draft. Look forward to it!

Is it though? It's the first draft in a couple years where they had a normal development year scouts could watch. Publications tend to just compare. Every year they say it's a deep draft until a month or two before it goes on and they change their tune. I know this happens because I don't pay much attention. I only see the initial thoughts about the draft and then don't start reading until right before, and it's always the same deal. I read that the draft class is underwhelming and immediately think to myself "They said this would be a deep draft last time I looked".

In the end, I'm not going to disagree with you. I'm just going to say, "Let's bring this up again after the Isles Stanley Cup parade."

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Is it though?

Yes, it is.

I worked at the U18 last spring and saw a good handful of these guys already making music.

I intensively followed the Gretzky Hlinka this summer.

I've been watching some of the highly touted European kids playing pro as 16-year-olds last winter.

This isn't some mumbo jumbo... This class not only has 2-3 franchise players on top, it's also chock full of top 6 forwards and top 4 Dmen right on up into the first half of the 2nd round, in a manner much more "as sure as is possible" than in the past 7-10 years.

It's the first draft in a couple years where they had a normal development year scouts could watch. Publications tend to just compare. Every year they say it's a deep draft until a month or two before it goes on and they change their tune. I know this happens because I don't pay much attention. I only see the initial thoughts about the draft and then don't start reading until right before, and it's always the same deal. I read that the draft class is underwhelming and immediately think to myself "They said this would be a deep draft last time I looked".

You've been around these parts for a while, so you'll hopefully remember that I've probably written on the state of hockey development and prospect quality a half dozen times.

There is no "bad or poor" draft anymore as far as I'm concerned. The level of hockey development is so advanced in the major hockey countries and lightyears better in the Germanys, Latvias, Switzerlands, Denmarks, etc. of the world than it was 20-30 some years ago that we simply have more quality coming through 7 rounds than ever before.

And when the hockey world talks about poor or strong classes, I take that with the grain of salt you are alluding to here. That is great and the right path to take because there are plenty of future NHLers in each draft.

For 2023, I'm just going to say that I'm seeing too many bonafide goods to say it "could or could not be a good draft". There's simply an above average level group of kids who bring the prerequisities - at this point - to be future top 6 forwards and top 4 Dmen.

In other words, the hype is currently legit.

In the end, I'm not going to disagree with you. I'm just going to say, "Let's bring this up again after the Isles Stanley Cup parade."

Agreed!

I'll be there.

But we won't have picks in rounds 1-3 by then, so we won't have to worry much about the draft anyways.

 

[JJ18Sniper]

Every ounce of my being felt Winnipeg would have been the IDEAL destination for Tavares at that trade deadline.

They ended up getting Stastny and then were in the conference final, just centimeters from an SC appearance.

Imagine if Tavares had been the acquisition instead?

And they had assets out of the ying-yang. They paid a pretty penny for Stastny, but they had a lot more ammunition.

Had Tavares only been available...

Looks like Winnipeg sent a 2018 1st, 4th and a prospect.
Ironically the 1st round selection was moved to Toronto and turned into Rasmus Sandin!

 

[Islanders4Cups]

How the hell did this turn into ANOTHER Tavares discussion??

Can we not have a separate thread for discussing anything and everything Tavares??

Should we talk about a Barzal in the same light?

First JT wanted to stay and then he wanted to taste what free agency was like and then he was gone
I see Barzal heading in a similar path
I am also for a deadline for resigning and then after that entertaining trade options

 

[leeroggy]

Is it though? It's the first draft in a couple years where they had a normal development year scouts could watch. Publications tend to just compare. Every year they say it's a deep draft until a month or two before it goes on and they change their tune. I know this happens because I don't pay much attention. I only see the initial thoughts about the draft and then don't start reading until right before, and it's always the same deal. I read that the draft class is underwhelming and immediately think to myself "They said this would be a deep draft last time I looked".

In the end, I'm not going to disagree with you. I'm just going to say, "Let's bring this up again after the Isles Stanley Cup parade."

Before or after the Arctic ice melts?

 

[IslesNorway]

Should we talk about a Barzal in the same light?

First JT wanted to stay and then he wanted to taste what free agency was like and then he was gone
I see Barzal heading in a similar path
I am also for a deadline for resigning and then after that entertaining trade options

Which is the lesson they must've learned. I'm sick of reading the same stuff over and over about the JT debacle. Of course he should've been traded, but he took advantage of a naive ownership and GM. That must not happen again.

Set a date for Barzal. If he hasn't re-signed by that date, he should be traded. It's that simple. If Lou can't coax him into reupping, no one will.

 

[saintunspecified]

Should we talk about a Barzal in the same light?

First JT wanted to stay and then he wanted to taste what free agency was like and then he was gone
I see Barzal heading in a similar path
I am also for a deadline for resigning and then after that entertaining trade options

Except that Barzal will still be an RFA in the offseason. So, yeah, the '23 draft is imo the deadline. He needs to be signed or dealt by then. I think it wil be resolved sooner - one way or the other.

 

[NC 1972]

Except that Barzal will still be an RFA in the offseason. So, yeah, the '23 draft is imo the deadline. He needs to be signed or dealt by then. I think it wil be resolved sooner - one way or the other.

I don't pretend to know what a professional athlete is thinking when they are approaching UFA status , it's the first time in their career they get to call the shots since draft day. We on the other hand are free to change employers should we not be happy. That said I think Barzal see's himself as the anti JT, after (the kid that won the Calder) comment there was a question posed to MB I cant remember what it was or how long after JT's departure but Barzal used the opportunity to take a shot and said something along the lines of I'm here to win playoff games or rounds or the cup my memory is not the best. He has a new facility and a great practice rink claims to love life on the island a new coach that wants to play a more up tempo game all he needs is talent and maybe he stays but it's always a maybe.

 

[periferal]

My recollection is that people here were pretty confident at the time that Tavares would re-sign. But I guess I misread that because it seems like most people think he should have been traded at the deadline. My bad.

Don't forget that Malkin was working on developing a billion dollar arena project at the time. I realize he doesn't have the business acumen of all of us, but maybe he thought trading away the face of the franchise for picks would have been not so good, and ultimately more risky than taking the process all the way to the end (the couch by the pool the morning of UFA day) in an effort to re-sign the guy. And it was a bit of bad luck that Tavares happened to be a UFA during that crazy "shopping week" thing where he interviewed teams.

Ultimately, it all turned out for the best for us. And I suspect CGY may do better in the playoffs having "traded" Gaudreau for Kadri.

Yeah...Use them quotes around "traded," because it definitely did not turn out "best" for us. Actual best would have been to literally TRADE Tavares and get 2-3 top assets that might have been the difference 2 years later between falling a goal short of the finals...And a Stanley Cup.

I don't know if it was snow or Malkin, but when a valuable player leaves your franchise for zero, someone f***ed up. By definition that cannot be the "best" possible outcome for us.

Heck I'd rather have Tavares and his 11M contract than have Pageau and Palmieri (and Ross Johnston). The idea of having a Tavares/Barzal/Nelson center lineup would be amazing. Remember that Barzal had his best season playing the #2 center role behind Tavares. And Nelson as any teams' #3 center is .

Elite talents >>> Decent talents. This should be the goal, but for whatever reasons both snow and Lou cannot deliver on this and we continue to add "middle-6" forwards and defensemen.

Cap space is "nothing"? I think someone here with an avatar that looks like yours would argue with that concept.

Oh right - Cap space. Totally forgot about that. What a fool I am. My bad and I stand corrected...Let's not qualify Barzal next offseason and let him walk for nothing.

More cap space!!! Yay!

 

[periferal]

I don't really get it here sometimes. The Isles did this EXACT same thing with Buffalo and Vanek, yet the trade got ridiculed here immensely. Honestly, do you really think it's better to trade your star player with 1 year left on an expiring contract for pennies on the dollar rather than compete for the Stanley Cup? Buffalo's decision was easy as they were not a playoff team, but fans berated the trade here. I couldn't disagree with you more. Isles situation was different as it was easy to tell the playoffs weren't a reality at some point. I don't think I have every seen a team trade a franchise player on an expiring contract when they are competing for the Stanley Cup, EVER. Yet you make it seem like it's common sense and all GMS would do this. Please, tell me again why you are smarter than all the GMS in the NHL?

If I may quote the great PK Cronin here.... "Case by case." The Tavares and Vanek situation were anything but "exact." That's why you "don't get it" here.


The Vanek Situation:

• Literally everyone with a pulse knew Vanek was going to sign with Minny the following offseason and he had ZERO shot to resign him.
• ...That's why the Sabres traded him in the 1st place - SO THEY WOULDN'T LOSE HIM FOR NOTHING THAT NEXT OFFSEASON.
• Then Snow not only decided to trade for him anyway, but embarrassingly overpaid for him.
• Then after a few months of snow trying to resign Vanek in vein, teams knew that snow was egg-faced and had to deal him. That's why he got "pennies on the dollar."
• The reason people hated the Vanek situation was because snow turned a 1st, 2nd, and Matt Moulson into a 2nd and Sebastian Collberg just a few months later.
• And even worse - The Sabres even flipped Moulson that trade deadline and got more back than snow did for Vanek.

The Tavares Situation:

• The dude was the only team he played with for a decade. If he couldn't commit to resigning with the Isles by that previous summer then he never should have been on the opening night roster.
• You keep harping on me saying the Isles should have traded him at the deadline, but what I really wanted them to do it's not let it get close to that point. You can go back and read my posts, but basically when Tavares didn't resign on July 1, 2017 I wanted him gone then. Both Carey Price and Drew Doughty had recently committed to long-term deals with their respective teams on July 1, so scarily eye-opening that Tavares wouldn't.
• So if you trade Tavares before the season (like Chicago did with Seth Jones and Calgary just did with Tkachuk), then you don't have to make a tougher decision at the trade deadline if your team is in the playoff hunt.
• Not only that, but the Isles might have been a stronger team had they traded Tavares prior to the 17-18 season depending on the assets returned and cap space opened up.
• Tomas Tatar was traded that trade deadline for a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks. That would have been below the floor of what Tavares would have gotten back, but even just a 1st round pick alone would've been better than letting a #1 center walk for zero.

In the end both situations were different, but they couldn't have played them each much worse than they did.

#Nuance