Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[doublechili]

I chose that date specifically bc they already had those players, yet the following EIGHT drafts they have ONE drafted player on the SC roster.

They literally whiffed at drafting for years to supplement those 3 players, they relied on UFA and trading away future picks…to backfill their poor drafting of the prior 7/8 years.

So, yes, there’s more than one way to build a team. The suck forever and play Bantam hockey hasn’t yielded anything, yet soon to be franchise UFAs maybe walking out the door soon.

And I think VGK may have been a similar story last year. I'm still a believer in building through the draft to some extent, but it's not the same now under a salary cap and with UFA as it was in the old days where you could build a team piece by piece and keep all the pieces forever.

Cup winners used to be built like a Ferrari, slowly, skillfully and with care. Now it's more like a Havana taxi cab - you just keep swapping out parts and try to keep it running well.

 

[PK Cronin]

Yeah, there was a graphic up during last night's game showing that FLA has a total of (I think) 3 players on their roster that they drafted. IIRC, 10 players were UFAs and the rest were acquired in trades or via waivers.

VGK last year I think was pretty similar in how they built their roster.

If FLA wins, the last 5 Cups will be FLA, VGK, COL, TB and TB. Not only do we need a new GM, we need to move to a more desirable geographic location.

We tried Brooklyn and Belmont, where else is there?!

 

[YearlyLottery]

Wahlstrom was playing the banger role because he wasn't scoring. At that point during Lambert's tenure Wahlstrom was taking the body (and stupid penalties) as well as trying to be the enforcer during Matt Martin's stint on IR. You do anything you can to stay in the lineup.

It's a strength when you can play the banger role and score on 2nd line minutes. Wahlstrom was doing that minus the scoring on the bottom 6 = a waste of a 1st round pick.

You are sort of arguing with yourself over how much Wahlstrom sucks so I won't touch on that since I agree. Being a physical player is not a negative thing.

Fighting does not equal physical. Willing to use your body to play hockey is being physical. Anders Lee is a physical hockey player as well. Seems like we have different definitions of the word. I do not reserve the word physical for bottom six players. Matthew Tkatchuk for example is a physical hockey player.

 

[PK Cronin]

This has to be one of the most disingenuous cherry-picking posts in the history of HFBoards.

You're seriously going to arbitrarily use 2015 as a cutoff to foster an idea that drafting isn't that important? What a joke. Here's some player the Panthers DRAFTED just before your cutoff...

2011 - Huberdeau (key piece in acquiring Tkachuk)
2013 - Barkov
2014 - Ekblad

Without those 3 they don't come close to where they are now.

And while you're pumping up the "there's plenty of ways to build" take, while your GM is out there trading 1sts for guys like Romanov, Palmieri, and Pageau...The Panthers used a 1st to acquire Sam Reinhart.

So yeah...Many ways to build, but if your GM isn't drafting well you ain't getting to the finish line. Period.

Sam Reinhart was a 50-60 point player before getting to Florida and never scored more than 25 goals in a season. I'm pretty sure you would've been upset with Lamoriello for acquiring that type of player with a first round pick.

One of those pieces highlighted isn't even on the team and I don't think Ekblad is as important as Montour or Forsling. Still, even with those three key pieces it took the team a decade to figure out how to become a serious contender. Last year they squeaked into the playoffs behind the Islanders if you recall, so it's not even like they've been a perennial contender for a long time.

It's obvious that you need talent to win the cup, but it's not like this Florida team is stacked with players they drafted. How you accumulate the talent doesn't matter, as long as you do it. If three hits in drafts a decade ago is "drafting well" then I'm not sure we even agree on what that looks like.

 

[denis5]

And I think VGK may have been a similar story last year. I'm still a believer in building through the draft to some extent, but it's not the same now under a salary cap and with UFA as it was in the old days where you could build a team piece by piece and keep all the pieces forever.

Cup winners used to be built like a Ferrari, slowly, skillfully and with care. Now it's more like a Havana taxi cab - you just keep swapping out parts and try to keep it running well.

Vegas trades their picks away almost every year. There was only one player they drafted themselves on last year's roster.

 

[leeroggy]

We tried Brooklyn and Belmont, where else is there?!

Secaucus
South Bronx
Battery Park
Jones Beach

 

[periferal]

I chose that date specifically bc they already had those players, yet the following EIGHT drafts they have ONE drafted player on the SC roster.

They literally whiffed at drafting for years to supplement those 3 players, they relied on UFA and trading away future picks…to backfill their poor drafting of the prior 7/8 years.

So, yes, there’s more than one way to build a team. The suck forever and play Bantam hockey hasn’t yielded anything, yet soon to be franchise UFAs maybe walking out the door soon.

Since 2015 the Islanders only have 4 players on their roster drafted by them (and that's if you include Aho). How come the Islanders aren't better then?

 

[MJF]

You are sort of arguing with yourself over how much Wahlstrom sucks so I won't touch on that since I agree. Being a physical player is not a negative thing.

Fighting does not equal physical. Willing to use your body to play hockey is being physical. Anders Lee is a physical hockey player as well. Seems like we have different definitions of the word. I do not reserve the word physical for bottom six players. Matthew Tkatchuk for example is a physical hockey player.

As an Islander Wahlstrom has not been able to tie these things together. He may have the willingness to play this way but it yielded no results on the scorecard. I’d say that right before his knee injury Wahlstrom was more preoccupied with laying a big hit on guys along the boards than anything else.

 

[PK Cronin]

And I think VGK may have been a similar story last year. I'm still a believer in building through the draft to some extent, but it's not the same now under a salary cap and with UFA as it was in the old days where you could build a team piece by piece and keep all the pieces forever.

Cup winners used to be built like a Ferrari, slowly, skillfully and with care. Now it's more like a Havana taxi cab - you just keep swapping out parts and try to keep it running well.

The flat cap has also skewed things too. Having reasonable and/or cheap contracts on the books is significantly more important when the cap is stagnant than it is when it's going up by a good chunk each year. There's just more flexibility in the latter situation.

If you make bad choices it's still going to hurt but it's probably a bit more manageable to get out from under them.

Vegas trades their picks away almost every year. There was only one player they drafted themselves on last year's roster.

I don't like using Vegas a benchmark on how to build a roster because they're an expansion team that had a very unique situation that no other teams can replicate. It's completely fair to use them as a comparison on how a team should play and the types of players they should target though.

As an Islander Wahlstrom has not been able to tie these things together. He may have the willingness to play this way but it yielded no results on the scorecard. I’d say that right before his knee injury Wahlstrom was more preoccupied with laying a big hit on guys along the boards than anything else.

I think players fall into the mistake of trying to emulate what other guys on the roster are known for sometimes. In Wahlstrom's case he was placed in a bottom six role and decided (or was instructed) that he needed to be like Martin and Clutterbuck, when in reality that's not his game not how he should approach the game. There's a way to play that bottom six role without being replicas of the guys that came before you.

If I remember correctly I think Todd Bertuzzi was a victim of management wanting him to play a heavier game because of his size but it's not something he was good at or wanted to do and so he never materialized into the player he should've been with the team. Instead, he went elsewhere and had a pretty good career all things considered.

There needs to be a balancing act, you can't be a Ho-Sang doing your own thing but being comfortable in the role/how you're playing is also important to having long term success.

 

[doublechili]

If I remember correctly I think Todd Bertuzzi was a victim of management wanting him to play a heavier game because of his size

Didn't they have him hang around with Clark Gillies, hoping some of Jethro would rub off on him?

 

[Throttle]

Didn't they have him hang around with Clark Gillies, hoping some of Jethro would rub off on him?

Yup.

 

[leeroggy]

Since 2015 the Islanders only have 4 players on their roster drafted by them (and that's if you include Aho). How come the Islanders aren't better then?

Climate change
It's the default answer these days, isn't it?

 

[MJF]

Secaucus
South Bronx
Battery Park
Jones Beach

East Rutherford has yielded some championship teams, and they have that spiffy new megamall and a railroad spur.

 

[Throttle]

Since 2015 the Islanders only have 4 players on their roster drafted by them (and that's if you include Aho). How come the Islanders aren't better then?

Probably because in the trading department Zito made some stellar and ballsy moves to supplement the team.

 

[YearlyLottery]

This has to be one of the most disingenuous cherry-picking posts in the history of HFBoards.

You're seriously going to arbitrarily use 2015 as a cutoff to foster an idea that drafting isn't that important? What a joke. Here's some player the Panthers DRAFTED just before your cutoff...

2011 - Huberdeau (key piece in acquiring Tkachuk)
2013 - Barkov
2014 - Ekblad

Without those 3 they don't come close to where they are now.

And while you're pumping up the "there's plenty of ways to build" take, while your GM is out there trading 1sts for guys like Romanov, Palmieri, and Pageau...The Panthers used a 1st to acquire Sam Reinhart.

So yeah...Many ways to build, but if your GM isn't drafting well you ain't getting to the finish line. Period.

You are not going to agree with this but the equivalent of a Reinhart level trade turning into that production would be a Pinto/Ehlers/Laine level of trade. Honestly Laine is probably too good for this conversation.

 

[periferal]

You are not going to agree with this but the equivalent of a Reinhart level trade turning into that production would be a Pinto/Ehlers/Laine level of trade. Honestly Laine is probably too good for this conversation.

Well it's not that simple. I understand what you're trying to say, but we have to judge each player case by case...

• Reinhart was always a smart hockey player with very good upside (as we all can see)...But on a crap team that held him back. Now look at who he plays with on the Panthers vs the Sabres.
• Again Laine has as much scoring upside at Auston Matthews, but for him it's not so much about his surroundings as it is his own issues/mind. If he put it all together mentally and took hockey 100% seriously then I would drool about the idea of him next to Barzal.
• Ehlers I don't think is smart enough to reach the levels that the other 2 above could.
• Pinto I'm not sure on yet. I like him, but I think he rounds out as more a 2nd line player vs 1st line player. I'd take my chances on him over Ehlers though.

And let us remember that just as Lou is a steel trap when it comes to information, so are a handful of other GMs around the league. So just because you don't read that a player is on the block doesn't mean that other players cannot be had in a deal.

Probably because in the trading department Zito made some stellar and ballsy moves to supplement the team.

Look at you indirectly saying that Lou has not done enough to supplant the Isles.

 

[YearlyLottery]

Well it's not that simple. I understand what you're trying to say, but we have to judge each player case by case...

• Reinhart was always a smart hockey player with very good upside (as we all can see)...But on a crap team that held him back. Now look at who he plays with on the Panthers vs the Sabres.
• Again Laine has as much scoring upside at Auston Matthews, but for him it's not so much about his surroundings as it is his own issues/mind. If he put it all together mentally and took hockey 100% seriously then I would drool about the idea of him next to Barzal.
• Ehlers I don't think is smart enough to reach the levels that the other 2 above could.
• Pinto I'm not sure on yet. I like him, but I think he rounds out as more a 2nd line player vs 1st line player. I'd take my chances on him over Ehlers though.

And let us remember that just as Lou is a steel trap when it comes to information, so are a handful of other GMs around the league. So just because you don't read that a player is on the block doesn't mean that other players cannot be had in a deal.




Look at you indirectly saying that Lou has not done enough to supplant the Isles.

Interestingly enough the Isles have had two of these types of trades with their last two GM's. Nobody saw Bo Horvat or Ryan Smyth getting dealt here. I also would add in nobody saw Romanov getting dealt for that pick on here. I am heavily leaning towards just wanting the Isles to keep their first for once and to find a way improving the roster with keeping their first.

 

[periferal]

Interestingly enough the Isles have had two of these types of trades with their last two GM's. Nobody saw Bo Horvat or Ryan Smyth getting dealt here. I also would add in nobody saw Romanov getting dealt for that pick on here.

Well yes of course. So? Not sure what you're getting at here. All of Lou's deals are come totally out of nowhere, with no suggestion he was in on that player previously. And...?

I am heavily leaning towards just wanting the Isles to keep their first for once and to find a way improving the roster with keeping their first.

Believe me I want an injection of talented youth on this team as much as anyone...But I don't even know how much the Isles can improve their roster even if they deal their 1st.

 

[Sparksrus3]

Sam Reinhart was a 50-60 point player before getting to Florida and never scored more than 25 goals in a season. I'm pretty sure you would've been upset with Lamoriello for acquiring that type of player with a first round pick.

Bo Horvat - 732 games 241 goals 263 assists
Sam Reinhart - 696 games 255 goals 283 assists

Hmmm. Looks like that’s exactly what Lou did and Sam has more goals and more assists in less games . Raise your hand if you were upset with the Horvat trade even with Raty added .

 

[MarsTBOW]

Seen Rumors that teams are ready to offer 6x6 years for Zadorov.
I can see the Maple Creeps definitely doing that

 

[Throttle]

Well it's not that simple. I understand what you're trying to say, but we have to judge each player case by case...

• Reinhart was always a smart hockey player with very good upside (as we all can see)...But on a crap team that held him back. Now look at who he plays with on the Panthers vs the Sabres.
• Again Laine has as much scoring upside at Auston Matthews, but for him it's not so much about his surroundings as it is his own issues/mind. If he put it all together mentally and took hockey 100% seriously then I would drool about the idea of him next to Barzal.
• Ehlers I don't think is smart enough to reach the levels that the other 2 above could.
• Pinto I'm not sure on yet. I like him, but I think he rounds out as more a 2nd line player vs 1st line player. I'd take my chances on him over Ehlers though.

And let us remember that just as Lou is a steel trap when it comes to information, so are a handful of other GMs around the league. So just because you don't read that a player is on the block doesn't mean that other players cannot be had in a deal.




Look at you indirectly saying that Lou has not done enough to supplant the Isles.

Nope. Horvat and Reinhart could be construed as similar trades. Same with Bennet and JGP.

While FL was finding their way, the Isles were going deeper into the playoffs. FL had to work around Bob’s crap hit and went value hunting. The Isles locked in what to them was a solid 4 line team. The Isles stalled and FL kept refining.

Remember, FL backed into the playoffs last year thanks to PIT. They made a huge statement trade when they weren’t going to win with a perimeter player.

Lou is running out of time to make that statement trade.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

Since 2015 the Islanders only have 4 players on their roster drafted by them (and that's if you include Aho). How come the Islanders aren't better then?

Because two things can be true at the same time.

 

[Isles72]

As an Islander Wahlstrom has not been able to tie these things together. He may have the willingness to play this way but it yielded no results on the scorecard. I’d say that right before his knee injury Wahlstrom was more preoccupied with laying a big hit on guys along the boards than anything else.

he probably should have spent more time in the AHL learning how to give and take physical contact at the pro level .