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Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

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Osakahaus said:
who decides that the roster is fine? underlying stats are not good, and their offense has dried up with Nelson and Dobson looking very fragile right now
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Didn’t answer my question. You’re sayin the roster sucks, so therefore the expected goals is pretty much right on, no?
 
Big L said:
Didn’t answer my question. You’re sayin the roster sucks, so therefore the expected goals is pretty much right on, no?
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it is yes. the roster is in need of upheaval, which is shown by the poor expected goals.
 
PK Cronin said:
I think it's important to give people time before judging them. In today's sports world we judge GMs too quickly and don't allow them to correct for mistakes they've made.
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You're right about this, but for the wrong reason. Judging GMs in a given year is a fools errand. While it may be possible for them to correct mistakes, it is also possible that short term success, however limited, has sowed the seeds of dysfunction going forward. Such was and is the case with Lou. He was rewarded with two GM of the Year awards but far as I can see, this team still has no banners to hang (not without embarrassing themselves anyway) - not a division championship, not a conference championship, not a Stanley Cup, not a Presidents Trophy - nothing in 37 years but you know what we do have, a coming long and painful rebuild with nothing to show for it and no A or A+ prospects in the pipeline to speed that process along. People can prattle on about respectability all they want but in the end, that will be Lou's true legacy.
 
Torrey Redux said:
You're right about this, but for the wrong reason. Judging GMs in a given year is a fools errand. While it may be possible for them to correct mistakes, it is also possible that short term success, however limited, has sowed the seeds of dysfunction going forward. Such was and is the case with Lou. He was rewarded with two GM of the Year awards but far as I can see, this team still has no banners to hang (not without embarrassing themselves anyway) - not a division championship, not a conference championship, not a Stanley Cup, not a Presidents Trophy - nothing in 37 years but you know what we do have, a coming long and painful rebuild with nothing to show for it and no A or A+ prospects in the pipeline to speed that process along. People can prattle on about respectability all they want but in the end, that will be Lou's true legacy.
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His legacy is basically "we are respectable but still not in the upper class of the NHL"

is this fair?
 
Osakahaus said:
His legacy is basically "we are respectable but still not in the upper class of the NHL"

is this fair?
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I don't really care about the whole respectable thing. I understand, we've been beleaguered for the better part of four decades and short of actually losing our franchise, it would be hard to identify an organization that has suffered more structural setbacks so I get why people are embrace respectability and stability as goal in and of itself. But respectability is a fleeting commodity and cannot be a franchise's reason for being.
 
Torrey Redux said:
I don't really care about the whole respectable thing. I understand, we've been beleaguered for the better part of four decades and short of actually losing our franchise, it would be hard to identify an organization that has suffered more structural setbacks so I get why people are embrace respectability and stability as goal in and of itself. But respectability is a fleeting commodity and cannot be a franchise's reason for being.
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we still need respectability and stability either way. the islanders need to be taken seriously by players, the league, and even the NHL. look at how its helped the Canes btw.
 
Osakahaus said:
View attachment 845460

Excellent proof offseason changes must be made
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It's not proof of anything and there are certainly outliers on the list, but contrary to what some here might consider meaningless, when viewed broadly, the better teams are at or near the top half of the list and the not so good ones aren't. It's one more piece of information from which to make a judgement about where your team is at relative to others.
 
Torrey Redux said:
It's not proof of anything and there are certainly outliers on the list, but contrary to what some here might consider meaningless, when viewed broadly, the better teams are at or near the top half of the list and the not so good ones aren't. It's one more piece of information from which to make a judgement about where your team is at relative to others.
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Kinda like how the standings work? The better teams are near the top, the worse ones are near the bottom and the mucky middle is in the mucky middle?

The Isles record, being in the bottom five in wins in the conference, a -27 in goal differential, etc. all speaks to how meh this team is, but also those just above them and those below them. Basic stats and standings are more than sufficient to see where the team is. Junk data just makes people feel good (or bad).
 
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Throttle said:
Kinda like how the standings work? The better teams are near the top, the worse ones are near the bottom and the mucky middle is in the mucky middle?

The Isles record, being in the bottom five in wins in the conference, a -27 in goal differential, etc. all speaks to how meh this team is, but also those just above them and those below them. Basic stats and standings are more than sufficient to see where the team is. Junk data just makes people feel good (or bad).
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Every NHL team now has an analytics dept. Every one, including the, no-facial hair, no costumes at outdoor games Lou Lamoriello Islanders. In fact, the NY Islanders have seven employees devoted only to analytics. So, you can call it junk all you want (and lets face it, your only real purpose on these pages is to take both sides of any discussion and just poke at it, that's what you do) but the people who know infinitely more than you do have placed a value on them. Doesn't mean they're perfect or can't be challenged, but they have value or they wouldn't waste their time with them.
 
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Torrey Redux said:
Every NHL team now has an analytics dept. Every one, including the, no-facial hair, no costumes at outdoor games Lou Lamoriello Islanders. In fact, the NY Islanders have seven employees devoted only to analytics. So, you can call it junk all you want (and lets face it, your only real purpose on these pages is to take both sides of any discussion and just poke at it, that's what you do) but the people who know infinitely more than you do have placed a value on them. Doesn't mean they're perfect or can't be challenged, but they have value or they wouldn't waste their time with them.
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Yes, they absolutely have their own analytics departments. Every team in the NHL has an analytics department that is collecting and using data we don't have access to, in the context of what that organization is asking them to collect based on what they believe to be important information. The data Barry Trotz is interested in is going to be very different than what Dubas is interested in and their analytics departments are catering to their needs.

That in no way makes the advanced analytics provided to the masses any more useful. In fact, it's actually a big reason why I don't think they're nearly as useful as people think.
 
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PK Cronin said:
Yes, they absolutely have their own analytics departments. Every team in the NHL has an analytics department that is collecting and using data we don't have access to, in the context of what that organization is asking them to collect based on what they believe to be important information. The data Barry Trotz is interested in is going to be very different than what Dubas is interested in and their analytics departments are catering to their needs.

That in no way makes the advanced analytics provided to the masses any more useful. In fact, it's actually a big reason why I don't think they're nearly as useful as people think.
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How do you know what data they are using and sharing? Answer: You don't.

And very different? Are they playing different sports in different cities? No, it's hockey, and the differences lie in matters of small degrees and nuances of emphasis, but it's same game.
 
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Torrey Redux said:
How do you know what data they are using and sharing? Answer: You don't.
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It's pretty common knowledge as it's been mentioned in articles and on broadcasts that NHL teams have access to more analytics than the fans do.

If they didn't, why would they hire entire departments when they could just look at the same chart you are?
 
From a .5 second google search:

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PK Cronin said:
It's pretty common knowledge as it's been mentioned in articles and on broadcasts that NHL teams have access to more analytics than the fans do.

If they didn't, why would they hire entire departments when they could just look at the same chart you are?
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Did I ever argue this point? Of course they do. The fact that teams have more data available to them doesn't invalidate other data collected from independent sources. It's all data.
 
Torrey Redux said:
Did I ever argue this point? Of course they do. The fact that teams have more data available to them doesn't invalidate other data collected from independent sources. It's all data.
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Where did I argue it wasn't data? It's all data, just not particularly useful data.
 
PK Cronin said:
It's proof that NHL teams are using their own metrics and not relying on the data that's readily available. Are you suggesting it isn't?
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No, it isn't. You think that because teams are using their own metrics that that somehow constitutes proof that they are not also accessing other sources? They would be idiotic not to.
 
Torrey Redux said:
No, it isn't. You think that because teams are using their own metrics that that somehow constitutes proof that they are not also accessing other sources? They would be idiotic not to.
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I don't even know where to begin.

NHL teams hire analytics people. Those people are told to focus on specific data. They accumulate that data. They then interpret that data. Why would they trust data that isn't collected by them or a trusted source?

They do not need CORSI.com or whatever in order to track shots, attempts, expected goals, etc. because they're doing it themselves, based off how that particular organization values those things. They could contract out to specific companies to help get that data, absolutely, but that's not the same thing as just using some fan's website. They'd be idiotic to use data they can't verify.
 
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