Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[Satan'sIsland81]

You clearly have no idea what I think as I mentioned many times during that stretch that the team wasn't great and that they needed to find a way to have more success during the regular season. They were a team built for the playoffs, with their shutdown defense and grinding style, but they were always going to struggle to get into the playoffs.

As for the contracts, it depends which ones you're talking about. Most of the contracts on the team aren't bad it's just that there are too many of the same players/values. That's another thing I always mentioned.

I'm not intentionally ignoring anything. Whether he misinterpreted where the team was at year four, five, and six has little relevance on where they were in years one, two, and three. Letting Lehner walk and getting Varlamov, trading for Pageau, bringing Palmieri, etc. were all the right moves at that time. It's the GMs job to know when to make deals to add or subtract, when to extend guys and when to let them walk. He did a nice job in the first half of his time as the GM here and has stumbled recently. If Lamoriello misinterpreted where the team was that doesn't mean the deals that led him to the that conclusion were bad and shouldn't have been made, it means he needs to be better at interpreting what he's seeing.

PK why are you even continuing to engage in this anymore? The guy is barely even discussing anything about hockey anymore. It is basically a semantics debate.

 

[mm11]

losing sucks.

 

[PK Cronin]

If anybody wants to dump on Lou, that’s fine. I just don’t understand how you get upset with the moves he made while the team was pushing for the playoffs years ago. It’s very easy now to say Pulock Pageau, etc should not have gotten extensions, but at the time they were playing well, and you take a gamble.

If a GM could tell the future you would never make a mistake, and I’m not even saying those contracts were a mistake. In order to judge these moves you really need to have context and think back was it the right move of the time? How often does any contract that goes beyond three years ever play out like you hoped? it’d be great to never sign a player to more than one year but that’s not how it works.

This group had a good run and gave us some fun times. Now the challenge begins, I hope Lou is up for it.

The argument seems to be that we should've never attempted to win at that point and should've just went into a rebuild the moment Lamoriello came in.

We'll never actually know but I do believe that the team would've seen more of a rebuild if they had failed horribly that first year, but it was one of the best seasons they've ever had. I don't think any GM would've torn it down after that season and then they improved upon that season.

As @MJF has mentioned many times, the failure was not realizing that missing the playoffs the first time was the appropriate time to pivot. Instead, Lamoriello doubled down.

I do think the position is salvageable by taking a step back for a season or two and then re-loading. I'm not convinced that these contracts are as immovable as some think. We see bad deals can moved around all the time.

 

[The Real JT]

The argument seems to be that we should've never attempted to win at that point and should've just went into a rebuild the moment Lamoriello came in.

We'll never actually know but I do believe that the team would've seen more of a rebuild if they had failed horribly that first year, but it was one of the best seasons they've ever had. I don't think any GM would've torn it down after that season and then they improved upon that season.

As @MJF has mentioned many times, the failure was not realizing that missing the playoffs the first time was the appropriate time to pivot. Instead, Lamoriello doubled down.

I do think the position is salvageable by taking a step back for a season or two and then re-loading. I'm not convinced that these contracts are as immovable as some think. We see bad deals can moved around all the time.

If the isles (I mean Lou) did the prudent thing and retooled after last season, the road back to being a solid contender could’ve been very short.

Specifically, there was no need to extend Mayfield and Engvall. I’ll say something unpopular, but I would throw Varly into that mix as well. He’s had a good season, but what has that gotten us? He could have been flipped at last year’s TDL for perhaps a second round pick. We were always going to lean heavily on Sorokin and having Varly as a back up did nothing for us. Meanwhile, he has three more years, which is not currently a problem but things could change quickly with a goalie at his age. I would rather have passed on re-upping him and taken the assets to make a move to bolster the team in another area.

Now the only moves we can make to acquire assets is to trade Nelson which is a scary proposition or trade a player like Pelech or Pulock. Each of those moves are a bit of a crapshoot and may make this team less competitive in the short term.

 

[doublechili]

It is basically a semantics debate.

What do you mean by "semantics"?

 

[DerekKingSnipes]

All these guys (Lee, Pageau, Palms) have NTCs. You’re gonna have to find someone to take them who they’d agree to go to (unlikely) or is t on their list (also unlikely).

And let’s say you do it. Let’s say you free up like $17 million in cap space and it costs you your 2024 first and a bunch of seconds to do so and they all agree to trades. Then what? You have no assets to trade to get good players in! You’re stuck dealing with UFAs. Which is just more of the same. Just perpetuating the cycle over and over again, hoping that it’ll work.

It won’t.

NTC are waived all the time

 

[Torrey Redux]

You clearly have no idea what I think as I mentioned many times during that stretch that the team wasn't great and that they needed to find a way to have more success during the regular season. They were a team built for the playoffs, with their shutdown defense and grinding style, but they were always going to struggle to get into the playoffs.

As for the contracts, it depends which ones you're talking about. Most of the contracts on the team aren't bad it's just that there are too many of the same players/values. That's another thing I always mentioned.

I'm not intentionally ignoring anything. Whether he misinterpreted where the team was at year four, five, and six has little relevance on where they were in years one, two, and three. Letting Lehner walk and getting Varlamov, trading for Pageau, bringing Palmieri, etc. were all the right moves at that time. It's the GMs job to know when to make deals to add or subtract, when to extend guys and when to let them walk. He did a nice job in the first half of his time as the GM here and has stumbled recently. If Lamoriello misinterpreted where the team was that doesn't mean the deals that led him to the that conclusion were bad and shouldn't have been made, it means he needs to be better at interpreting what he's seeing.

Paragraph 1. So we agree. But you left something out IMO, yes, that grinding style will get you in sometimes and might even get you a few rounds, but it isn't going to get you where you want to go and continuing to double down on it only gets you more of the same or worse.

Paragraph 2. What am I missing here? So the individual contracts are good but when taken collectively they're not?

Paragraph 3. We will never see eye to eye on the the proper weighting of present value vs future value for a marginal (not great) team.

 

[leeroggy]

We need talent and speed. I want Rossi.

 

[PK Cronin]

Paragraph 1. So we agree. But you left something out IMO, yes, that grinding style will get you in sometimes and might even get you a few rounds, but it isn't going to get you where you want to go and continuing to double down on it only gets you more of the same or worse.

I don't agree. The Kings won two cups playing that style. St. Louis won a cup that way. Vegas is very similar to that style as well. Tampa Bay could play that way too.

Paragraph 2. What am I missing here? So the individual contracts are good but when taken collectively they're not?

Yes, and that when that Pageau deal was signed the landscape shifted shortly after and that wasn't the fault of anyone but it made that deal worse.

Having too many players making $5M, even if that's what they're worth on the open market, prevents you from having higher end guys because it eats into all your money. This is similar to people who want cheap prospects to fill out the roster who are on great ELC deals.

 

[CupHolders]

How is it hyperbolic? I’m talking about the roster on the ice. The team stinks, it’s about to miss the playoffs for the second time in three years, and would be a turkey if not for a Sorokin heater and Pens collapse a year ago, and is locked into this team for years to come.

They suck. They’re gonna suck next year. And the year after that, too. And with all this sucking they have exactly zero (0) prospects worth a damn. They have the worst farm system in the league.

When has it been worse? Even in 2007 they had Okposo and the specter of truly crashing to rebuild this the right way. They’re years away here from doing that. A perpetual 82 point team, like the Devils of a decade ago.

It’s bad.

Isles are mediocre, yes. But you’re post is absolutely hyperbolic.

 

[Torrey Redux]

I don't agree. The Kings won two cups playing that style. St. Louis won a cup that way. Vegas is very similar to that style as well. Tampa Bay could play that way too.

Of course you can win with that style and many have as you note, but you have to have enough talent to do that and you've already conceded that the Islander's "weren't great". Those other teams were and proved it.

 

[Satan'sIsland81]

What do you mean by "semantics"?

Is this a serious question?

 

[Throttle]

Maybe Clayton Keller wants out before his NTC kicks in. The Isles have a player with a NTC kicking in July 1.

 

[doublechili]

Is this a serious question?

Nope - joking.

 

[DerekKingSnipes]

How is it hyperbolic? I’m talking about the roster on the ice. The team stinks, it’s about to miss the playoffs for the second time in three years, and would be a turkey if not for a Sorokin heater and Pens collapse a year ago, and is locked into this team for years to come.

They suck. They’re gonna suck next year. And the year after that, too. And with all this sucking they have exactly zero (0) prospects worth a damn. They have the worst farm system in the league.

When has it been worse? Even in 2007 they had Okposo and the specter of truly crashing to rebuild this the right way. They’re years away here from doing that. A perpetual 82 point team, like the Devils of a decade ago.

It’s bad.

Mid 90s it was so much worse, nothing compares to that period

How is it hyperbolic? I’m talking about the roster on the ice. The team stinks, it’s about to miss the playoffs for the second time in three years, and would be a turkey if not for a Sorokin heater and Pens collapse a year ago, and is locked into this team for years to come.

They suck. They’re gonna suck next year. And the year after that, too. And with all this sucking they have exactly zero (0) prospects worth a damn. They have the worst farm system in the league.

When has it been worse? Even in 2007 they had Okposo and the specter of truly crashing to rebuild this the right way. They’re years away here from doing that. A perpetual 82 point team, like the Devils of a decade ago.

It’s bad.

 

[Strickland]

The argument seems to be that we should've never attempted to win at that point and should've just went into a rebuild the moment Lamoriello came in.

We'll never actually know but I do believe that the team would've seen more of a rebuild if they had failed horribly that first year, but it was one of the best seasons they've ever had. I don't think any GM would've torn it down after that season and then they improved upon that season.

As @MJF has mentioned many times, the failure was not realizing that missing the playoffs the first time was the appropriate time to pivot. Instead, Lamoriello doubled down.

I do think the position is salvageable by taking a step back for a season or two and then re-loading. I'm not convinced that these contracts are as immovable as some think. We see bad deals can moved around all the time.

No, the argument is that the GM, when given a choice, has always chosen wrong. Because he's bad at his job. Even at the start of his reign, he loaded this team with horrible deals (Hickey, Komarov) that wound up biting this team in the ass in a big way, He had to shed a defenseman in the summer of 2020 (because he's incapable of fielding anything but a team right at the cap) and chose Toews to trade and made one of the worst deals in the past 5 years. Beyond that, he's failed to get this team over the hump with the scorer it needed for years. And when the team had plainly run its course in 2022, he doubled down on them, not only refusing to trade pieces off the team, but handing out inexplicable extensions, to boot.

No matter what your expectations of Lou, he's failed. And guess what? He's gonna fail again this summer. That top 10 pick is gonna burn a hole in his pocket and he's almost assuredly gonna trade the pick for another Romanov. In that the trade is indefensible but somehow people here'll defend it in the name of "fairness".

But the only fair thing to admit is that the GM sucks and the team is screwed in countless ways. To escape the near certainty of another 5-7 years of irrelevance is going to require skill that Lou doesn't have.

And even then, it's probably not possible.

 

[Strickland]

Mid 90s it was so much worse, nothing compares to that period

As someone who had seasons for the entire 90s, the off ice issues were the cause of the on ice issues. The team off the ice is as stable as it has ever been. It's the stability fans have clamored for damn near half a century. And yet the on ice team is thoroughly mediocre, at best, and doomed to an inevitable slow decline to 90s bad. A rebuild is coming. Which is fine, that's the cyclical nature of things. But it's not coming anytime soon. Even if they wanted to, the team can not rebuild with all these NTCs on the roster.

Instead, it's doomed to what is has been the past three years: mediocre at best. And while it's mediocre, there's NOTHING in the farm system that's coming, unlike in the 90s. As someone who's followed Isles prospects my whole life, the system has NEVER been as bad as it is right now. It's abhorrent.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

my god...

 

[Osakahaus]

Yeah and I want the islanders to be a good team too.

 

[Osakahaus]

As someone who had seasons for the entire 90s, the off ice issues were the cause of the on ice issues. The team off the ice is as stable as it has ever been. It's the stability fans have clamored for damn near half a century. And yet the on ice team is thoroughly mediocre, at best, and doomed to an inevitable slow decline to 90s bad. A rebuild is coming. Which is fine, that's the cyclical nature of things. But it's not coming anytime soon. Even if they wanted to, the team can not rebuild with all these NTCs on the roster.

Instead, it's doomed to what is has been the past three years: mediocre at best. And while it's mediocre, there's NOTHING in the farm system that's coming, unlike in the 90s. As someone who's followed Isles prospects my whole life, the system has NEVER been as bad as it is right now. It's abhorrent.

its absolutely scary how barren the farm system has become. this team has become dry at the worst possible time. it feels like we're going to become the Sharks at this rate.

 

[Throttle]

Were there any GM of the Year winners that just went into rebuild mode after winning it? Nope…

its absolutely scary how barren the farm system has become. this team has become dry at the worst possible time. it feels like we're going to become the Sharks at this rate.

Vegas doesn’t have much to sniff at either. Sure they won, but they invested in using their assets to continually upgrade their team…and signed those players to long term contracts too.

 

[gordie43]

Were there any GM of the Year winners that just went into rebuild mode after winning it? Nope…


Vegas doesn’t have much to sniff at either. Sure they won, but they invested in using their assets to continually upgrade their team…and signed those players to long term contracts too.

They also didn’t have to deal with the expansion draft which hampered some of the isles plans.

 

[Top Corner]

If you're shitting on a GM when he has a team getting closer to a cup year after year then you're going to get push back. His issues today don't negate what he did then and doesn't make the criticism from then any better.

He's made poor decisions lately and now he's being rightfully criticized.

Saying, "I told you so" like this is just like picking a team to not with the cup, you'll be right more often than not. I don't think anyone thought the ride would last forever but trying to win a cup is the goal so you deal with the consequences later.

I think its a totally different thing comparing 1 Cup winner with 31 losers.
I measure a GM based on the state of the team when entering and when leaving.
What I tried to imply was with Lou as president and his choice as GM, I think we might have been better off. No one knows for sure but what is certain is the state of the Team , they are basically the same with a less than optimistic future going forward.

As much as it was nice winning playoff rounds, I never felt this team was 1 player away.
The GM took a shortcut based on age and early Trotz success and rolled the dice and for the last 3 years has come up snake eyes. Last years appearance was at the grace of another aging team who should have won 99 out of 100 contests against Chicago but didn't win that one and we thank them.

 

[SI]

As someone who had seasons for the entire 90s, the off ice issues were the cause of the on ice issues. The team off the ice is as stable as it has ever been. It's the stability fans have clamored for damn near half a century. And yet the on ice team is thoroughly mediocre, at best, and doomed to an inevitable slow decline to 90s bad. A rebuild is coming. Which is fine, that's the cyclical nature of things. But it's not coming anytime soon. Even if they wanted to, the team can not rebuild with all these NTCs on the roster.

Instead, it's doomed to what is has been the past three years: mediocre at best. And while it's mediocre, there's NOTHING in the farm system that's coming, unlike in the 90s. As someone who's followed Isles prospects my whole life, the system has NEVER been as bad as it is right now. It's abhorrent.

OH my! Your posts have certainly been pretty special and there are a bunch of "pearls" - the bolded in particular is crazy inaccurate - the system has in fact been just as bad or worse a few times in this franchise's history.

If the team continues to flounder next season (2024-25 season) and miss the playoffs, then you have the potential for a rebuild -

• Nelson and Palmieri are on expiring contracts and could be dealt at the TDL
• Adam Pelech's NTC becomes a Modified- NTC (16 team no trade) July 1st 2025
• Lee and JGP can be moved at 50% retained at the 2025 TDL
• Cizikas can also be moved at the 2025 TDL
• If the team also needed to - although they would need players to make the cap floor, Engvall and Mayfield could be bought out of their deals with a cap penalty of 2.1 AAV for several seasons, annoying, but certainly manageable.

 

[Top Corner]

He's incredibly bad and hasn't shown much improvement at all since he was originally given a look. In fact, I think he's gotten worse over time.

At least we agree on something Wally has fallen off a cliff.Should have been sent down and if Claimed, call it a day on that missed pick.