Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[Osakahaus]

In the middle of this run, Lou made one of the worst trades in recent NHL history. The team succeeded despite its GM, not because of him. He was bad at the end in Jersey, neutered in Toronto and bad here on the Island.

The team is in the worst position, organizationally, it has ever been in. It just doesn’t need to be rebuilt, it CAN NOT be rebuilt. It’s gonna take years to strip this thing down, even if they wanted to.

And all of it, ALL OF IT, was foreseeable. It’s what Lou did to Jersey. Of course it was gonna happen here, it’s all the old fool knows.

i wouldn't say worst but rather lopsided and stupid. but the worst part is that we lost out on Toews over Pulock. If he was smarter, he traded Pulock while he was at his peak and we keep Toews around. If we were smarter, we trade away Pelech while he still had value and let other defenseman take over. If they were smarter, they dont keep around the 4th line for this long. If they were smarter, we do everything to get a free agent to sign here. But that will never happen. Lamoriello is too stubborn to make the islanders adapt to the 21st century.

I await to see the damage done come April. This team has no hope. They feel like a lost franchise ever since UBS opened up. Ironically, what signaled the end of this team is the closing of Nassau.

 

[Satan'sIsland81]

With all the line juggling going on why has Roy not gone back to the one set of combos that worked during the six game winning streak. Nelson - Horvat - Barzal and Lee - Pageau - Palmieri
I just do not get his thinking here. The lines he keeps sticking with is neutering Barzal, Horvat and Nelson have gone cold and Pageau is back to looking like crap. It makes no sense.

 

[PK Cronin]

Yes. They do.

The ride? What ride, a two or three year flash in the pan during unusual times? Detroit had a ride, LA had a ride, Chicago had a ride, Pittsburgh had a ride, TB had a ride and is still on it ten years in. Colorado has a Cup and has been on a ride for 5+ years. Vegas too. What the Islanders achieved was not "a ride".

Didn't you complain recently about someone taking your post too literally? This is the second time in a few days you're intentionally doing that to mine. I'm not interested in debating what a "ride" is or isn't.

The consequences of decisions do not just count in the immediate period in which you make them. If you sign an agreement to pay for a car over time that looked shiny and new and ran great when you bought it but failed to look under the hood for oil leaks and sawdust in the transmission does it only matter that it ran great for the first few months that you had it and then when it falls apart after those few months that is irrelevant? The Islanders did not achieve enough or sustain it for long enough to give Lou a pass on the decisions he made then that are so negatively affecting the organization now. He misread what he had and made unwise commitments to it, just as so many of the fans here misread what they were seeing. For the fans it is forgivable and understandable, for the GM it is not.

I don't care for your analogy and don't think it's remotely close to working.

Of course consequences aren't only in the short term. It's just incredibly stupid to look at the moves he did make and say he should've known better. He dealt with and made deals that were directly impacted by COVID that people are still complaining about. I can't fault him for that and nobody should. It's the decisions after everything stabilized that's the issue.

In the middle of this run, Lou made one of the worst trades in recent NHL history. The team succeeded despite its GM, not because of him. He was bad at the end in Jersey, neutered in Toronto and bad here on the Island.

The team is in the worst position, organizationally, it has ever been in. It just doesn’t need to be rebuilt, it CAN NOT be rebuilt. It’s gonna take years to strip this thing down, even if they wanted to.

And all of it, ALL OF IT, was foreseeable. It’s what Lou did to Jersey. Of course it was gonna happen here, it’s all the old fool knows.

Holy hyperbole.

This is the worst position the organization has ever been in?

It's not even close. Just stop.

 

[Strickland]

i wouldn't say worst but rather lopsided and stupid. but the worst part is that we lost out on Toews over Pulock. If he was smarter, he traded Pulock while he was at his peak and we keep Toews around. If we were smarter, we trade away Pelech while he still had value and let other defenseman take over. If they were smarter, they dont keep around the 4th line for this long. If they were smarter, we do everything to get a free agent to sign here. But that will never happen. Lamoriello is too stubborn to make the islanders adapt to the 21st century.

I await to see the damage done come April. This team has no hope. They feel like a lost franchise ever since UBS opened up. Ironically, what signaled the end of this team is the closing of Nassau.

They should trade Nelson/Pelech/Pulock this summer. Can they? Maybe not. Gonna be hard to get them to waive the NTCs. Are they? Of course not. They’re led by a bumbling old man who doesn’t know what he’s doing.

 

[Strickland]

Didn't you complain recently about someone taking your post too literally? This is the second time in a few days you're intentionally doing that to mine. I'm not interested in debating what a "ride" is or isn't.



I don't care for your analogy and don't think it's remotely close to working.

Of course consequences aren't only in the short term. It's just incredibly stupid to look at the moves he did make and say he should've known better. He dealt with and made deals that were directly impacted by COVID that people are still complaining about. I can't fault him for that and nobody should. It's the decisions after everything stabilized that's the issue.


Holy hyperbole.

This is the worst position the organization has ever been in?

It's not even close. Just stop.

How is it hyperbolic? I’m talking about the roster on the ice. The team stinks, it’s about to miss the playoffs for the second time in three years, and would be a turkey if not for a Sorokin heater and Pens collapse a year ago, and is locked into this team for years to come.

They suck. They’re gonna suck next year. And the year after that, too. And with all this sucking they have exactly zero (0) prospects worth a damn. They have the worst farm system in the league.

When has it been worse? Even in 2007 they had Okposo and the specter of truly crashing to rebuild this the right way. They’re years away here from doing that. A perpetual 82 point team, like the Devils of a decade ago.

It’s bad.

 

[PK Cronin]

How is it hyperbolic? I’m talking about the roster on the ice. The team stinks, it’s about to miss the playoffs for the second time in three years, and would be a turkey if not for a Sorokin heater and Pens collapse a year ago, and is locked into this team for years to come.

They suck. They’re gonna suck next year. And the year after that, too. And with all this sucking they have exactly zero (0) prospects worth a damn. They have the worst farm system in the league.

When has it been worse? Even in 2007 they had Okposo and the specter of truly crashing to rebuild this the right way. They’re years away here from doing that. A perpetual 82 point team, like the Devils of a decade ago.

It’s bad.

I'm not going to sit and explain to you why it's hyperbolic because you already know. If you don't then figure it out.

 

[Strickland]

I'm not going to sit and explain to you why it's hyperbolic because you already know. If you don't then figure it out.

Ah, you’ve got no clue what’s going on. Cool. Cool.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I’ve been wrong before

indeed

The team is in the worst position, organizationally, it has ever been in.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Torrey Redux]

Didn't you complain recently about someone taking your post too literally? This is the second time in a few days you're intentionally doing that to mine. I'm not interested in debating what a "ride" is or isn't.

I don't care for your analogy and don't think it's remotely close to working.

Of course consequences aren't only in the short term. It's just incredibly stupid to look at the moves he did make and say he should've known better. He dealt with and made deals that were directly impacted by COVID that people are still complaining about. I can't fault him for that and nobody should. It's the decisions after everything stabilized that's the issue.

Nor am I. You know what the point is and it isn't about what "ride" means. That was the term you used and I responded to. You could have used "run" or "streak" or anything else. It wasn't the point. More literalism deflection.

Oh, so COVID mattered when it affected Lou's ability to operate (and every other GM's btw) but it didn't really matter that much in how the playoffs unfolded. Way to be consistent.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Oh, so COVID mattered when it affected Lou's ability to operate (and every other GM's btw) but it didn't matter at all in how the playoffs unfolded. Way to be consistent.

No, COVID only mattered when the Isles had success. So it can be explained away as a fluke. Well, two flukes I guess. But that third season when more than half of their team was unable to play due to COVID protocols and they missed the playoffs? Yes that was a true representation of Lou's team and proof why he sucks.

COVID only helped the Islanders. Never hurt them.

 

[PK Cronin]

Nor am I. You know what the point is and it isn't about what "ride" means. That was the term you used and I responded to. You could have used "run" or "streak" or anything else. It wasn't the point. More literalism deflection.

What are you on about?

Oh, so COVID mattered when it affected Lou's ability to operate (and every other GM's btw) but it didn't really matter that much in how the playoffs unfolded. Way to be consistent.

I've been incredibly consistent.

It absolutely impacted his ability to operate, as well as other GMs. Some were in positions of strength at the time because they had cap space already and others were dealing with a cap crunch that was impossible to see coming.

What are you talking about with how the playoffs unfolded? The Islanders made the playoffs both times, once via point percentage (which is the only viable way to do it when teams play different amount of games) and once because that's where they placed. They even had to win an extra round in the first year so I'm not sure what you're even referring to.

Are those seasons supposed to not count because it was wonky?

 

[Osakahaus]

They should trade Nelson/Pelech/Pulock this summer. Can they? Maybe not. Gonna be hard to get them to waive the NTCs. Are they? Of course not. They’re led by a bumbling old man who doesn’t know what he’s doing.

Ideally trading Nelson to a team that needs a center should be on the table. I'd swing one with Minnesota to absolutely get him and Pelech off the books, just to get Rossi, another prospect, and someone else. We need talent and speed. I want Rossi.

No, COVID only mattered when the Isles had success. So it can be explained away as a fluke. Well, two flukes I guess. But that third season when more than half of their team was unable to play due to COVID protocols and they missed the playoffs? Yes that was a true representation of Lou's team and proof why he sucks.

COVID only helped the Islanders. Never hurt them.

It hurt them to lock them into this situation, ironically.

 

[beach]

Engvall when he's good is a solid player.

Is that on his birthday, or in a non-contact scrimmage?

 

[Osakahaus]

Is that on his birthday, or in a non-contact scrimmage?

literally we saw that during the sample size last season, and at the start of this season. he can be a solid player. I just hate that he can't consistently do it. If any of you guys watch baseball, he reminds me of a guy like Corey Julks or Dom Smith: So much potential yet cant put it all together.

 

[beach]

literally we saw that during the sample size last season, and at the start of this season. he can be a solid player. I just hate that he can't consistently do it. If any of you guys watch baseball, he reminds me of a guy like Corey Julks or Dom Smith: So much potential yet cant put it all together.

The problem is he's going to be 28 in a couple of months. His avg points per season is .37 and this year it is .34. So pretty much, this IS Pierre Engvall. The fact we signed him thru 2030 is a complete joke.

 

[Osakahaus]

The problem is he's going to be 28 in a couple of months. His avg points per season is .37 and this year it is .34. So pretty much, this IS Pierre Engvall. The fact we signed him thru 2030 is a complete joke.

He's a third liner in todays game and isn't being paid more than 3M. I have more concerns if we cant have someone else next to him that elevates his style of play.

 

[SI]

All these guys (Lee, Pageau, Palms) have NTCs. You’re gonna have to find someone to take them who they’d agree to go to (unlikely) or is t on their list (also unlikely).

And let’s say you do it. Let’s say you free up like $17 million in cap space and it costs you your 2024 first and a bunch of seconds to do so and they all agree to trades. Then what? You have no assets to trade to get good players in! You’re stuck dealing with UFAs. Which is just more of the same. Just perpetuating the cycle over and over again, hoping that it’ll work.

It won’t.

Ok, let's take a deep breath.

First, Lee, Pageau, and Palmieri all have M-NTC (modified NTCs). Pageau and Palmieri both have a 16-NTC (hypothetical guess most players have the 7 Canadian teams and for someone who has played most of his career on the East Coast, IMO, the next 9 will be West Coast conference teams. Lee's NTC turns into M-NTC on July 1st - 15 teams.

About moving them - Palmieri is on an expiring contract 1 year 5 AAV, plus he has had a resurgence this year - 23 goals this season and has been playing 1st team PP and PKing as well. Some contenders instead of giving multi- year deals to wingers might figure it is better to commit to Palmieri for 1 season. The Predators have multiple 2nd and 3rd round picks and can afford to bring in Palmieri.

Even if I am delusional that Palmieri could return a 2nd or a 3rd there is already a precedent, which is the Beauvillier trade - Chicago gave a 5th-round pick to Vancouver for Beauvillier and his full cap hit.
Best Case Scenario - Palmieri for a 2nd or 3rd at worst a 5th rounder.

Pageau 2 years a 5m AAV might be too rich for a team and I don't think JGP is a Bailey or Ladd-type situation. JGP is RH 3C, which does have value in this league. JGP is more of a candidate for a hockey trade rather than a dump. He could also be a candidate where the team retains some of the cap hit, like JGP at 2y/3 AAV will get the team a good return. IMO, JGP will be moved in a hockey trade if he is moved. I mentioned Vancouver - Garland or Mikheyev for JGP - same term and same Cap hit or JGP for Matthieu Joseph (2/2.95) as an example of some deals.

Lee is a buyout candidate or someone who can be used in a return for another bad contract. IMO, Lee probably stays for one more year before his final year. It makes more sense to wait a season before buying him out. The team could also try to move his contract in the final year at 50% retained, if Lee continues to be 20 goal scorer.

Where the roster is locked in is on the blueline -
Pulock, Pelech, Dobson, Romanov, Mayfield, and Bolduc are all signed for next season and that is a strong blueline group that has balance. Bolduc needs to be in the line up nest season and you hope the 22-year-old can develop and take the next step in his game.

Barzal and Horvat are the only real locks in the F group.

• Cizikas does not have a no-trade clause and can be moved easily with his 3 years at 2.5 AAV.
• Holmstrom is an RFA with no arbitration, so LL can very easily qualify him for 1 year .875K before needing to lock him up.
• Cal and Martin are UFAs are more mostly like not being resigned
• Fasching and Gauthier have contracts for next season both at the league minimum, so no biggie
• Lee, Palmieri, and JGP have M-NTC
• Engvall has 6 more years @ 3 AAV - buyout will only cost 1m, but for like 12 years. He could be used to trade for a bigger contract, but more likely he will stick around
• Wahlstrom is either moved for a mid-round pick or not qualified - more likely traded than given up on.
• Nelson has a M-NTC with 1 year @ 6M - he has very good trade value, but it really depends on how competitive the team wants to be next season. They could move him in a hockey trade, say Nelson for Buchnevich or in a package that gets the team some good young pieces back, i.e. Minny 1st, 3rd, and Heidt. LL then uses the 6m on cap savings to sign Marchessault or Tervainen.

2024 1st and 2nd will most likely be kept, especially if they miss the playoffs.

 

[Torrey Redux]

What are you on about?



I've been incredibly consistent.

It absolutely impacted his ability to operate, as well as other GMs. Some were in positions of strength at the time because they had cap space already and others were dealing with a cap crunch that was impossible to see coming.

What are you talking about with how the playoffs unfolded? The Islanders made the playoffs both times, once via point percentage (which is the only viable way to do it when teams play different amount of games) and once because that's where they placed. They even had to win an extra round in the first year so I'm not sure what you're even referring to.

Are those seasons supposed to not count because it was wonky?

What am I on about? Such disingenuousness is laughable.

I've never disputed that his ability to operate wasn't impacted. Everything was impacted, including the games and the results. Everything.

And who said anything about not counting? It counted, it just didn't mean that we were actually great and worthy of the subsequent investments Lou made. Lou misread the results, he chose to see in the same way that you see. We were great, we were Cup ready so lets hand out those contracts, lets get rid of our picks and bring in some overpriced vets and go to town. Oops.

You keep referring to what Lou did subsequent to those "wonky" times as what he should held accountable for. Yup, that's for sure, but what you keep ignoring, intentionally, is that those moves he made were based on his total misinterpretation of the results in the bubble years.

 

[doublechili]

About moving them - Palmieri is on an expiring contract 1 year 5 AAV, plus he has had a resurgence this year - 23 goals this season and has been playing 1st team PP and PKing as well. Some contenders instead of giving multi- year deals to wingers might figure it is better to commit to Palmieri for 1 season. The Predators have multiple 2nd and 3rd round picks and can afford to bring in Palmieri.

Even if I am delusional that Palmieri could return a 2nd or a 3rd there is already a precedent, which is the Beauvillier trade - Chicago gave a 5th-round pick to Vancouver for Beauvillier and his full cap hit.
Best Case Scenario - Palmieri for a 2nd or 3rd at worst a 5th rounder.

Yeah, I agree. Palmieri is tied for 22nd in the NHL in goals among RWs. I highly doubt the team would need to pay someone to take him at this point in his contract.

Our biggest problem with Palmieri is that he's not a playmaking wing, and we're not exactly flush with playmaking centers.

 

[Throttle]

3 coaches want no part of Wally. He’s not qualified or qualified, then later used as a toss in a trade. That seems like that has passed.

He can’t effectively play on the bottom six. He’s living off his draft position and contract price. That’s it.

 

[PK Cronin]

What am I on about? Such disingenuousness is laughable.

I've never disputed that his ability to operate wasn't impacted. Everything was impacted, including the games and the results. Everything.

And who said anything about not counting? It counted, it just didn't mean that we were actually great and worthy of the subsequent investments Lou made. Lou misread the results, he chose to see in the same way that you see. We were great, we were Cup ready so lets hand out those contracts, lets get rid of our picks and bring in some overpriced vets and go to town. Oops.

You keep referring to what Lou did subsequent to those "wonky" times as what he should held accountable for. Yup, that's for sure, but what you keep ignoring, intentionally, is that those moves he made were based on his total misinterpretation of the results in the bubble years.

You clearly have no idea what I think as I mentioned many times during that stretch that the team wasn't great and that they needed to find a way to have more success during the regular season. They were a team built for the playoffs, with their shutdown defense and grinding style, but they were always going to struggle to get into the playoffs.

As for the contracts, it depends which ones you're talking about. Most of the contracts on the team aren't bad it's just that there are too many of the same players/values. That's another thing I always mentioned.

I'm not intentionally ignoring anything. Whether he misinterpreted where the team was at year four, five, and six has little relevance on where they were in years one, two, and three. Letting Lehner walk and getting Varlamov, trading for Pageau, bringing Palmieri, etc. were all the right moves at that time. It's the GMs job to know when to make deals to add or subtract, when to extend guys and when to let them walk. He did a nice job in the first half of his time as the GM here and has stumbled recently. If Lamoriello misinterpreted where the team was that doesn't mean the deals that led him to the that conclusion were bad and shouldn't have been made, it means he needs to be better at interpreting what he's seeing.

 

[PK Cronin]

3 coaches want no part of Wally. He’s not qualified or qualified, then later used as a toss in a trade. That seems like that has passed.

He can’t effectively play on the bottom six. He’s living off his draft position and contract price. That’s it.

He's incredibly bad and hasn't shown much improvement at all since he was originally given a look. In fact, I think he's gotten worse over time.

 

[gordie43]

If anybody wants to dump on Lou, that’s fine. I just don’t understand how you get upset with the moves he made while the team was pushing for the playoffs years ago. It’s very easy now to say Pulock Pageau, etc should not have gotten extensions, but at the time they were playing well, and you take a gamble.

If a GM could tell the future you would never make a mistake, and I’m not even saying those contracts were a mistake. In order to judge these moves you really need to have context and think back was it the right move of the time? How often does any contract that goes beyond three years ever play out like you hoped? it’d be great to never sign a player to more than one year but that’s not how it works.

This group had a good run and gave us some fun times. Now the challenge begins, I hope Lou is up for it.

And one last thing COVID help this team as much as it hurt. The stoppage and short seasons helped them get players healthy and in line to play for the playoffs, but the off-season completely wrecked their plans with a flat cap.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

What am I on about? Such disingenuousness is laughable.

I've never disputed that his ability to operate wasn't impacted. Everything was impacted, including the games and the results. Everything.

And who said anything about not counting? It counted, it just didn't mean that we were actually great and worthy of the subsequent investments Lou made. Lou misread the results, he chose to see in the same way that you see. We were great, we were Cup ready so lets hand out those contracts, lets get rid of our picks and bring in some overpriced vets and go to town. Oops.

You keep referring to what Lou did subsequent to those "wonky" times as what he should held accountable for. Yup, that's for sure, but what you keep ignoring, intentionally, is that those moves he made were based on his total misinterpretation of the results in the bubble years.

There seems to be a misperception that Lou mortgaged the future and went "all-in." I thought his approach has been fairly measured during his tenure with NYI. And while an extra million here or an extra year there adds up when you look at all of his contracts (and fair to criticize), I do not see anything that is soooooo egregious.

He traded 3 first round picks in deals for 3 players that he signed. No rentals. One was a late first rounder (#29 overall) for Palmieri. The #13 and #17 overall were traded for a 27 year old Horvat and 22 year old Romanov. All three players signed. The Palmieri trade definitely helped the team make the ECF in 2021.

The playoff runs of '20 and '21 were great and there is nothing to misinterpret. My biggest complaint was not addressing scoring problem. They really could've used a Horvat-type trade a couple years earlier. If the Barry Trotz teams had just a little more offense, who knows...

 

[Throttle]

He's incredibly bad and hasn't shown much improvement at all since he was originally given a look. In fact, I think he's gotten worse over time.

I’m gonna go with unqualified unless he gets to reset in the summer to play bottom six. However, 3 coaches have zero faith in the guy.