Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[periferal]

For my taste, this was the singlemost damning thing for Snow's GMship.

Despite any and everything that plagued Snow along the way, much of his own doing, had this team hit gold on say 4 of those 5 picks (as opposed to the other way around), it could've changed everything for him.

Heck, even viewing Bailey and Tavares (no duh) as very solid decisions where the Isles were picking, I just look at the guys I pined for between 2010-2014 and wonder what could have been:
- Cam Fowler
- Sean Couturier
- Jacob Trouba (ok, I also pined hard for Grigorenko that year, should a forward be taken)
- Andre Burakovsky
- William Nylander

Despite Snow giving a masterclass by moving Reinhart and a few picks for what became Barzal and Beauvillier, Pulock over Burakovsky is the only selection there I'm glad the team made.

One way or the other, THIS was the organization's shot at turning itself into a regular contender via the draft. And it failed.

PS) As a far out sidenote, although Dal Colle's DEL team didn't make the playoffs, it was well on its way to being relegated by Christmas time and then turned things around considerably to maintain the class down the stretch. And Dal Colle was the leading scorer. I'd be a bit surprised to see him leave this league. Definitely looks like he's found a home.

Agree with basically everything here, but in terms of the bolded there's no way to give snow credit for trading Reinhart...If you don't also bash him for drafting him in the first place. The next 7 picks were M. Reilly, Lindholm, Dumba, Puliot, Trouba, Koekkoek, and Forsberg. Literally any of them would've been 20 times better than drafting a total zero with the 4th overall pick of any draft.

And I'm not sure how much credit snow deserves for that Reinhart deal. Chiarelli was not only one of the 3 or 4 worse GM's than snow at the time, but he was under intense pressure to not only fix the Oilers defense, but also Reinhart played for the Oil KIngs so he was totally beloved by Edmonton fans. I'm sure he felt no matter what Reinhart became he would have a nice honeymoon period for bringing a boy wonder back home.

 

[doublechili]

When Malkin hired Lou, he named him PRESIDENT and GM and the team went out of its way to include in the press release that Lou will have "full authority over all hockey matters." This tells me Lou is in charge. Period. I seriously doubt the owners get involved in the hockey details.

I agree as a general proposition, but I will qualify by repeating what I posted above about Malkin and Lou discussing big picture stuff. In other words, my guess is that Lou is authorized to spend up to the cap and therefore can trade for Horvat and extend him and also sign all the guys last summer to long-term extensions. Malkin technically must sign off on that since it's his money. But my guess is that he doesn't meddle in the hockey decisions at that level (although, the required "sign-off" would provide him with the opportunity as the boss to question what the GM is doing, right?).

However, I do think that if Malkin thought the team should tear it down and rebuild because ultimately he wants a Cup, damn the short-term consequences, then he'd let his GM know that. Or, if conversely Malkin has a priority of being a competitive team year in year out he'd also let his GM know that. The guy has a ton invested in the team and the arena and the retail village. Does anyone actually think he leaves the really big picture decisions strictly up to his GM and quietly abides by whatever he decides to do? We debate it here, but he doesn't care? That's all I'm getting at.

 

[leeroggy]

safe to say tonight is a must win?

No questions allowed or tolerated! Two minutes for roughing!

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Agree with basically everything here, but in terms of the bolded there's no way to give snow credit for trading Reinhart...If you don't also bash him for drafting him in the first place. The next 7 picks were M. Reilly, Lindholm, Dumba, Puliot, Trouba, Koekkoek, and Forsberg. Literally any of them would've been 20 times better than drafting a total zero with the 4th overall pick of any draft.

And I'm not sure how much credit snow deserves for that Reinhart deal. Chiarelli was not only one of the 3 or 4 worse GM's than snow at the time, but he was under intense pressure to not only fix the Oilers defense, but also Reinhart played for the Oil KIngs so he was totally beloved by Edmonton fans. I'm sure he felt no matter what Reinhart became he would have a nice honeymoon period for bringing a boy wonder back home.

Absolutely. It ended up being a miserable pick.

And Chiarelli's incompetency aside, that Snow simply reacted fast enough AND got a guy who is now the cornerstone of our attack, if not our franchise, has to be something we acknowledge as having been a positive turn of events that Snow managed to make happen, even if I refer to it as simply having been an act of God.

I can say that I was at the U18 Worlds in the Czech Republic that year (where I encountered both Pulock and Forsberg as well as an underage Draisaitl, among others) and got to talk draft shop with a few folks in the business. Across the board, the name Reinhart was dropping as a certainty to go in the top 7 or 8, with Murray and Yakupov being considered the fixtures while Grigorenko and Galchenyuk were being viewed as the big make-or-break gambles. Dumba was the kid they all wanted to see at the event that spring while Seth Jones was the underager they were licking their chops over.

In any case, I left that event with the impression that everyone I talked to was reckoning on Reinhart as an early pick in that draft. I remember that the most negative thing I heard from one guy is that he'd take a Dumba, Trouba, or Ceci over Reinhart because he was convinced that the game had moved away from the slower defensive Dman and felt Reinhart's draft year offense in the WHL wouldn't translate well over time, but still said he saw the kid as a future NHLer putting up 25 points a season.

So, due to my personal experience at that event, I wasn't disappointed with the Reinhart pick, even if I had a thing for a few other players and felt we'd be very safe with Trouba on D or if Snow were in homerun swing mode, he should grab Girgorenko up front. I had gotten to hear about Reinhart as a player who ended up being selected at the proper juncture.

 

[Osakahaus]

I think that today is a great day to remind you all that Lamoriello did the right thing to not push in his poker chips.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I agree as a general proposition, but I will qualify by repeating what I posted above about Malkin and Lou discussing big picture stuff. In other words, my guess is that Lou is authorized to spend up to the cap and therefore can trade for Horvat and extend him and also sign all the guys last summer to long-term extensions. Malkin technically must sign off on that since it's his money. But my guess is that he doesn't meddle in the hockey decisions at that level (although, the required "sign-off" would provide him with the opportunity as the boss to question what the GM is doing, right?).

However, I do think that if Malkin thought the team should tear it down and rebuild because ultimately he wants a Cup, damn the short-term consequences, then he'd let his GM know that. Or, if conversely Malkin has a priority of being a competitive team year in year out he'd also let his GM know that. The guy has a ton invested in the team and the arena and the retail village. Does anyone actually think he leaves the really big picture decisions strictly up to his GM and quietly abides by whatever he decides to do? We debate it here, but he doesn't care? That's all I'm getting at.

I actually don't think Malkin spends too much time thinking about a Stanley cup or about how a team should be built to win one. His big picture is not the Islanders. The Islanders are merely a cog (though a big one) in his wheel.

Ledecky is maybe more of a fan but yes, at the end of the day, I think ownership lets Lou run the team with little to no questions.

 

[Top Corner]

If the Isles miss this year, and I know every year we seem to be saying the same thing about changes needed etc.. but this off season requires a moderate to severe makeover. When 3 coaches struggle to make this team an easy pick for one of the 8 post season spots, things got to take a different road. It might be just me, but Roy doesn't seem to have the same fire as when he started, almost like a disgruntled employee.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

I actually don't think Malkin spends too much time thinking about a Stanley cup or about how a team should be built to win one. His big picture is not the Islanders. The Islanders are merely a cog (though a big one) in his wheel.

Ledecky is maybe more of a fan but yes, at the end of the day, I think ownership lets Lou run the team with little to no questions.

If this is the case, then IMO he's a shitty owner. Successful businessmen are competitive and if he bought a professional hockey team to not care about the results...

 

[MJF]

If this is the case, then IMO he's a shitty owner. Successful businessmen are competitive and if he bought a professional hockey team to not care about the results...

No owner gives a manager carte blanche and no oversight. I believe Scott Malkin may be hands off with Lou but there comes a point where the team's poor performance affects sales, tv ratings, and sponsorships. That's when Malkin will act, and I have to believe that is coming soon. We already know that ticket sales have dropped each year since the team opened UBS. And since part of Malkin's business model for the retail village relies on repeat customers from arena events, having poor ticket sales should be a call for him to take action.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

If this is the case, then IMO he's a shitty owner. Successful businessmen are competitive and if he bought a professional hockey team to not care about the results...

Really? A shitty owner? After all of our ownership fiascos (basically starting day one) THIS is what you conclude is a shitty owner? An owner needs to do only the following IMO:

1. Spend to the max
2. Hire professionals
3. Keep the team in the area in a modern arena
4. Don't meddle in hockey affairs

I'm sure on some level, Malkin cares about wins and losses. But his investment is bigger than just the Islanders. I the Islanders didn't come with the land, arena opportunity, retail village, etc., I doubt he buys the team.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

Really? A shitty owner? After all of our ownership fiascos (basically starting day one) THIS is what you conclude is a shitty owner? An owner needs to do only the following IMO:

1. Spend to the max
2. Hire professionals
3. Keep the team in the area in a modern arena
4. Don't meddle in hockey affairs

I'm sure on some level, Malkin cares about wins and losses. But his investment is bigger than just the Islanders. I the Islanders didn't come with the land, arena opportunity, retail village, etc., I doubt he buys the team.

Yes, my #1 ask out of an owner is to care enough about the team that he/she wants to win a championship as much as the fans and players.

Like down here in Charlotte, Tepper WANTS to f***ing win. Problem is he meddles with the football operations far too much.

Stevie Cohen is similar but not to the same extent.

So yes, my criteria of shitty owner is to not care about the team and solely care about the asset.

Also, when he stepped into the picture, the Isles weren’t connected to any land.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

No owner gives a manager carte blanche and no oversight. I believe Scott Malkin may be hands off with Lou but there comes a point where the team's poor performance affects sales, tv ratings, and sponsorships. That's when Malkin will act, and I have to believe that is coming soon. We already know that ticket sales have dropped each year since the team opened UBS. And since part of Malkin's business model for the retail village relies on repeat customers from arena events, having poor ticket sales should be a call for him to take action.

If this team was a perennial loser, never making the playoffs and the building was empty every night I'd agree. But clearly the team has had success under Lou. Didn't they extend his contract recently? I'm sure Malkin oversees the top and bottom line financials but up to this point, has the team failed to meet financial expectations? Maybe but I doubt it.

Regardless, given his age, obviously Lou will be leaving in the not too distant future. Will be interesting to see what direction ownership goes in. The retail village is just launching... If ownership doesn't have the stomach for declining ticket sales, will they bring in a President/GM with a rebuild strategy?

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Yes, my #1 ask out of an owner is to care enough about the team that he/she wants to win a championship as much as the fans and players.

Like down here in Charlotte, Tepper WANTS to f***ing win. Problem is he meddles with the football operations far too much.

Stevie Cohen is similar but not to the same extent.

So yes, my criteria of shitty owner is to not care about the team and solely care about the asset.

Also, when he stepped into the picture, the Isles weren’t connected to any land.

That's usually the problem. When owners are as emotionally invested as fans it rarely works. It's fun to see the owner in the suite yelling and screaming and hamming it up to the cameras. But I'll take a behind-the-scenes owner any day. Sign the checks, spend to the max, hire top guys and stay out of the way. I couldn't care less if he was playing marbles instead of celebrating a game 7 win with the fans.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

That's usually the problem. When owners are as emotionally invested as fans it rarely works. It's fun to see the owner in the suite yelling and screaming and hamming it up to the cameras. But I'll take a behind-the-scenes owner any day. Sign the checks, spend to the max, hire top guys and stay out of the way. I couldn't care less if he was playing marbles instead of celebrating a game 7 win with the fans.

Of course, and I'm probably nit-picking your post but I just hope he has envisioned the Isles hoisting the Stanley Cup.

If he hasn't, then I'm disappointed that a guy like that would be okay with mediocrity on such a public facing entity.

 

[Osakahaus]

If the Isles miss this year, and I know every year we seem to be saying the same thing about changes needed etc.. but this off season requires a moderate to severe makeover. When 3 coaches struggle to make this team an easy pick for one of the 8 post season spots, things got to take a different road. It might be just me, but Roy doesn't seem to have the same fire as when he started, almost like a disgruntled employee.

the more realistic choice is that the islanders are in need of at least three new guys on the bottom 6, and we do need to see a more consistent holmstrom. They have the pieces, just smooth out the bottom 6. I think the biggest issue at hand that we're seeing is a team who really needs to just get their consistency straight. If we miss, then its honestly not the worst case scenario, especially since we didn't do crap at the deadline.


The other option is to blow it up and get maximum value for Nelson, which is very bad since you kinda need to keep Nelson around even if you believe the prospects are more beneficial to the long term future.

 

[Osakahaus]

Yes, my #1 ask out of an owner is to care enough about the team that he/she wants to win a championship as much as the fans and players.

Like down here in Charlotte, Tepper WANTS to f***ing win. Problem is he meddles with the football operations far too much.

Stevie Cohen is similar but not to the same extent.

So yes, my criteria of shitty owner is to not care about the team and solely care about the asset.

Also, when he stepped into the picture, the Isles weren’t connected to any land.

offtopic but this entire Mets offseason was Cohen being hands off with Stearns. See how they really didn't do any major deals besides Y2?

 

[Throttle]

No owner gives a manager carte blanche and no oversight. I believe Scott Malkin may be hands off with Lou but there comes a point where the team's poor performance affects sales, tv ratings, and sponsorships. That's when Malkin will act, and I have to believe that is coming soon. We already know that ticket sales have dropped each year since the team opened UBS. And since part of Malkin's business model for the retail village relies on repeat customers from arena events, having poor ticket sales should be a call for him to take action.

His business model for the village is for the Isles to provide supplemental ‘support’ - the retail village is a high end retail shopping experience that has a different customer base than a sports franchise does. It’s independent of the Isles, albeit the valuation in the franchise with UBS gives him a free village.

The train and parking are just as important to the village, with the development drivers of those being the racetrack and Islanders. Again, those are absorbed by the larger project, not the village.

A decline in ticket sales for the Isles will have under 10% impact on the village. My guess is this has all been factored into the success of the village, which to reiterate while on the same location, has a complete separate customer base.

 

[MJF]

A decline in ticket sales for the Isles will have under 10% impact on the village. My guess is this has all been factored into the success of the village, which to reiterate while on the same location, has a complete separate customer base.

Where are you getting this from?

 

[xECK29x]

Where are you getting this from?

vibes

 

[MJF]

vibes

No doubt.

 

[Throttle]

Where are you getting this from?

Bc VR gets 60M visitors per year across 12 locations w/o a single sports franchise attached to it. On weekends, they average 25-35k per day.

41 islanders home dates are going to impact those numbers? No. VR doesn’t build some generic outlet park with generic brands.

The Isles and the racetrack (and the state/MTA) paid for the parking garage and the rail. The valuation of UBS/Isles pays for the development of the village. ALL of that w/o even touching VRs customer base yet.

 

[MJF]

Bc VR gets 60M visitors per year across 12 locations w/o a single sports franchise attached to it. On weekends, they average 25-35k per day.

41 islanders home dates are going to impact those numbers? No. VR doesn’t build some generic outlet park with generic brands.

The Isles and the racetrack (and the state/MTA) paid for the parking garage and the rail. The valuation of UBS/Isles pays for the development of the village. ALL of that w/o even touching VRs customer base yet.

Bicester is a much larger shopping area. The shopping area here at Belmont will be roughly the size of The Americana in Manhassett in terms of retail sq footage.. Therefore repeat customers from ALL arena and the race track events factor more heavily Into the foot traffic needed for Belmont’s retail village to be successful. Especially when it comes to the arena’s prime tenant. It would br self-defeating for Malkin to take a laissez-faire attitude with the Islanders now.

 

[Chockey22]

The way this season is trending, a significant retool is needed, as many have been saying. There's a decent enough core here that a rebuild makes no sense, financially or practically, but a major overhaul will be needed. It's certainly more than a bottom 6 retool; so much more.

 

[MJF]

The way this season is trending, a significant retool is needed, as many have been saying. There's a decent enough core here that a rebuild makes no sense, financially or practically, but a major overhaul will be needed. It's certainly more than a bottom 6 retool; so much more.

So to reiterate, keeping Barzal, Horvat, Dobson while dumping everyone else = retool?

Because at this point I don't see enough on this roster worth committing to.

 

[Chockey22]

So to reiterate, keeping Barzal, Horvat, Dobson while dumping everyone else = retool?

Because at this point I don't see enough on this roster worth committing to.

Well, I'd include Sorokin and Romanov on that list as well. There's a few others worth keeping either because they cost little and are slightly above replacement level (Reilly, Holmstrom) or are worth their current salary (Nelson, Palmieri, Cizikas). If you can move Pageau and one of Pelech or Pulock without giving up assets to do so, that gives some room to improve.