Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

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And what about Florida? Let's look at where their core was drafted...

Barkov -2nd overall
Ekblad - 1st overall
Tkachuk - 6th overall (got by trading Huberdeau who was drafted 3rd overall)
Reinhart - 4th overall
Bennett - 4th overall
And of course they convinced Bobrovsky to sign there.

I know you keep harping on the fact that rebuilds guarantee nothing and of course that is true. Yet when you look at the Stanley Cup champions over the past 20 years their rosters are littered with core players who were drafted in the top 10 of their draft years.

Look at the Penguins, Kings, Blackhawks, Lightning, Avalanche, etc - All of them had/have 2-3 elite players who were drafted when they absolutely sucked and drafted at the top of the 1st round the following years.

So to be clear once again...I'm not saying that a rebuild is necessary. But what I am saying is that this team needs to find a way to add the kind of elite talent that ultimately wins Championships - And short of a very rare Jack Eichel or Matthew Tkachuk trade, that talent is almost always found at the top end of the draft.

Anyway I hope you can truly digest what I wrote. I'm not attacking you or putting you down in any way. Just trying to get you to see how I see things even if we disagree.

Through all of that conjecture, this is the section I agree with (to an extent). There's luck built into the draft, not only through the lottery, but drafting 1/2nd overall when there are franchise players actually available. This isn't always the case. All of these teams were fortunate truly elite talent was there for the taking. It's not a fail safe methodology. Also, Florida's core is comprised of trades, draftees, and signings.

Moreover, I suspect most of this board knows how you see things; you've made that quite clear (and detailed). Some may agree, some disagree, some in between.
 
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Islanders drafted top 5 for 4 years in a row and it got them nothing.

For my taste, this was the singlemost damning thing for Snow's GMship.

Despite any and everything that plagued Snow along the way, much of his own doing, had this team hit gold on say 4 of those 5 picks (as opposed to the other way around), it could've changed everything for him.

Heck, even viewing Bailey and Tavares (no duh) as very solid decisions where the Isles were picking, I just look at the guys I pined for between 2010-2014 and wonder what could have been:
- Cam Fowler
- Sean Couturier
- Jacob Trouba (ok, I also pined hard for Grigorenko that year, should a forward be taken)
- Andre Burakovsky
- William Nylander

Despite Snow giving a masterclass by moving Reinhart and a few picks for what became Barzal and Beauvillier, Pulock over Burakovsky is the only selection there I'm glad the team made.

One way or the other, THIS was the organization's shot at turning itself into a regular contender via the draft. And it failed.

PS) As a far out sidenote, although Dal Colle's DEL team didn't make the playoffs, it was well on its way to being relegated by Christmas time and then turned things around considerably to maintain the class down the stretch. And Dal Colle was the leading scorer. I'd be a bit surprised to see him leave this league. Definitely looks like he's found a home.
 
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Islanders drafted top 5 for 4 years in a row and it got them nothing.

You need:

To be drafting in a good draft with franchise players
To make the correct selection
Develop that selection properly
Hope that selection stays healthy
Surround that selection with other quality players through the same process
Hope those players are better than the other players selected in the years prior or years after
Get a good coach that can maximize the players' talents
And be able to retain those players and sign them to reasonable/favorable deals

It's so easy I'm not sure why everyone isn't doing it!


On a more serious note, the "elite" player thing is a little frustrating at times. Many players get that elevated status after they've won a cup (or come close to winning the cup). There's no real definition for what it is either, it's completely subjective. When do you know that you have those players? Barzal and Dosbon are point per game players right now, are they elite? Horvat and Nelson are right behind them, are they elite? Is Sorokin elite?

If we're constantly waiting for a McDavid, MacKinnon, or Crosby to try and win we'll be waiting a really long time.
 
Not only is a rebuild no guarantee that it will result in a juggernaut team, but even having a juggernaut team is no guarantee it will yield a cup.

The only guarantee is losing. Ask Buffalo. Ask anyone here during the abominable Snow era.

Anyone advocating for a rebuild is a buffoon. It’s not something you choose to do, it’s something you’re forced to do. You don’t burn your house down to do a kitchen remodel.
 
Anyone advocating for a rebuild is a buffoon. It’s not something you choose to do, it’s something you’re forced to do. You don’t burn your house down to do a kitchen remodel.
And you don’t remodel the kitchen when the foundation of the house is cracked….you shore up the foundation.
 
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It seems around here like a couple of issues get mixed up:

Rebuild vs. retool; and
Lou vs a new GM.

Those are two separate things.

VGK won the Cup last year - go to their CapFriendly page and click on the "depth chart" tab and look at their roster and how players were acquired. I count 4 guys on the roster who were drafted by VGK, at #79, 115, 34 and 29. Yes, they were able to compile picks via the expansion draft and used them as trade capital, but they put that roster together through a lot of aggressive, creative moves.

IMO, rebuilding is a last resort for teams that have nothing going for them. Most of the time teams are better off retooling, and you need to constantly retool under a cap anyway.

As for our GM, I respect Lou's accomplishments and think he's a good GM, however excessive loyalty and inflexibility are concerns and I also question whether his roster-building approach is still valid in a salary cap league.

The funny thing is that Lou's methodical approach is closer in ways to the mindset of the people that want a tear-down rebuild in that they're both kind of inflexible, either/or approaches. I think that a GM who would make a series of creative retooling moves (both acquiring new players and maximizing value by timely moving current players) could dramatically improve the team without having to waste Dobson, Horvat, Sorokin, Barzal, etc..
 
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The only guarantee is losing. Ask Buffalo. Ask anyone here during the abominable Snow era.

Anyone advocating for a rebuild is a buffoon. It’s not something you choose to do, it’s something you’re forced to do. You don’t burn your house down to do a kitchen remodel.
Yeah, let's stay here forever!!
1710350049686.png
 
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It seems around here like a couple of issues get mixed up:

Rebuild vs. retool; and
Lou vs a new GM.

Those are two separate things.

VGK won the Cup last year - go to their CapFriendly page and click on the "depth chart" tab and look at their roster and how players were acquired. I count 4 guys on the roster who were drafted by VGK, at #79, 115, 34 and 29. Yes, they were able to compile picks via the expansion draft and used them as trade capital, but they put that roster together through a lot of aggressive, creative moves.

IMO, rebuilding is a last resort for teams that have nothing going for them. Most of the time teams are better off retooling, and you need to constantly retool under a cap anyway.

As for our GM, I respect Lou's accomplishments and think he's a good GM, however excessive loyalty and inflexibility are concerns and I also question whether his roster-building approach is still valid in a salary cap league.

The funny thing is that Lou's methodical approach is closer in ways to the mindset of the people that want a tear-down rebuild in that they're both kind of inflexible, either/or approaches. I think that a GM who would make a series of creative retooling moves (both acquiring new players and maximizing value by timely moving current players) could dramatically improve the team without having to waste Dobson, Horvat, Sorokin, Barzal, etc..
In that vein, the retool vs rebuild definition is an important distinction. I'm for keeping the core 5-6 and trading the rest for whatever you can get. This is closer to a retool than a rebuild in which everyone is for sale. In my version of retool, Brock is for sale as I think you can get some good future picks/young assets. But Ilya, Barzy, Bo, Dobson, Romanov, and one of Pulock/Pelech would remain.
 
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Byram has been on fire since joining the Sabres. If he can stay healthy he has the chance to be special. Huge fan of his
hate the move for the Avalanche at the end, but that also means they must really trust Middlestadt to be that 2C long term now
 
It seems around here like a couple of issues get mixed up:

Rebuild vs. retool; and
Lou vs a new GM.

Those are two separate things.

VGK won the Cup last year - go to their CapFriendly page and click on the "depth chart" tab and look at their roster and how players were acquired. I count 4 guys on the roster who were drafted by VGK, at #79, 115, 34 and 29. Yes, they were able to compile picks via the expansion draft and used them as trade capital, but they put that roster together through a lot of aggressive, creative moves.

IMO, rebuilding is a last resort for teams that have nothing going for them. Most of the time teams are better off retooling, and you need to constantly retool under a cap anyway.

As for our GM, I respect Lou's accomplishments and think he's a good GM, however excessive loyalty and inflexibility are concerns and I also question whether his roster-building approach is still valid in a salary cap league.

The funny thing is that Lou's methodical approach is closer in ways to the mindset of the people that want a tear-down rebuild in that they're both kind of inflexible, either/or approaches. I think that a GM who would make a series of creative retooling moves (both acquiring new players and maximizing value by timely moving current players) could dramatically improve the team without having to waste Dobson, Horvat, Sorokin, Barzal, etc..

This will continue to be the discussion until Lamoriello is gone or the team wins the cup (and then it'd still happen I'm sure).

Vegas is interesting because the bulk of their star talent didn't come via the draft so they demonstrate that you can bring in your top players via trade in order to win. However, Vegas is unlike most franchises because of the way their organization was brought into the NHL and was able to accumulate draft capital land assets to trade, plus I think they had more cap space in their earlier years (I could be mistaken) because they didn't lock anyone up long term on big deals. I'm not quite sure when they hit max cap but I know they reached it before winning the cup.

A team like Florida, though they haven't won, shows a team can be competitive by bringing in castoffs from other teams (Forsling, Verhaeghe, Duclair, Bennet, Reinhart) and I do think they're similar to where the Islanders are. Despite having Barkov, Huberdeau, Ekblad, and Bobrovsky (plus other young goaltenders), they were never really competitive. Huberdeau was over a point per game player during his last four seasons in Florida, so they had all of the makings of a team that should've been challenging for a cup. That didn't happen, they traded for Tkachuk and still weren't that good until they hit the playoffs and they haven't looked back since. How much different does that roster look if they missed the playoffs last year? Had they missed they most likely would've been letting guys walk and shaking up more of that roster. Instead a single point in the standings and a run to the finals has completely changed that organization, now viewed as the best team in the East by many. One last note on Florida, they have a grand total of three players on their roster who were drafted by their organization.

Also worth noting that most of the cup winners in recent memory have abused the f*** out of the LTIR rules. I'm not complaining that those teams cheated, but they were all able to stock up and make trades for players to bolster their lineups because of LTIR and then have a more stacked roster during the playoffs that isn't anywhere near being cap compliant. If your team doesn't get lucky with when a big injury happens then you're not able to do the same thing and that's not the fault of any GM (unless they were presented with the same opportunity and didn't take advantage of it).

I like a lot of what Lamoriello does, from his net out philosophy to having guys play specific roles on the team. I'm not a fan of how much loyalty he shows guys, but I acknowledge there is some value there. It's prevented him from making some tough decisions. I'm encouraged by his decision to not make any moves this deadline because the biggest fear I have is that he'll keep throwing good money after bad chasing a cup before he's finished given his age. I'm not opposed to taking a step back in order to take a step forward for a season but I am opposed to a complete tear town.

We've seen enough talented players get moved around the league and in weird circumstances that I don't see how anyone can say for certain that [x] teams can't improve because of [y]. We've also seen players labeled as "not a winner" who went on to win. For me, the path forward is making tough decisions with some veterans (letting some walk, trading others) and acquiring players who need a change of scenery or a chance to rebound.

Time and time again we've seen teams who were thought to be on the verge of a rebuild (Vancouver, Florida, Los Angeles, Boston) find some way to become relevant again. Whether that's through trading, a new coach, or a GM change. We've also seen those highly touted teams with all the young prospects fizzle out or be unable to reach the next step.

Life isn't linear, enjoy the ride.
 
Islanders drafted top 5 for 4 years in a row and it got them nothing.
they also were managed terribly at the time. I think the isles core issue was always their development portion. Once we got Lamoriello involved, I feel like our player develop got a bit better at least.
 
hate the move for the Avalanche at the end, but that also means they must really trust Middlestadt to be that 2C long term now
Or the Johansson ‘experiment’ that was the making of the GM, which had a history with the player, didn’t work out (duh) and he needed to fix it before it became ‘his’ failure in the playoffs.
 
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