Speculation: Roster Building Thread XXXVIII - Dust in the wind…

[duhmetreE]

I get keeping the PP sharp... It's one of our biggest strengths... but can we use practice time for things that need to be improved upon?

 

[rangers1314]

Team USA giving up a lead late, and losing after regulation while the best young player was benched for large stretches is so David Quinn that even if I didn't know who the coach was, he'd be my first guess based on that quarter final.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when he tries to explain that move in interviews this summer.

 

[TheGortonConspiracy]

I wonder if Kessel at full salary for Nemeth & a 5th/6th could get done. I'm sure Arz is on Nemeth's no trade list but Arz needs players with term to get to the cap floor next season, and NYR could use the cap relief next season.

Man if we could get rid of Nemeth while acquiring Kessel as a rental that would be a W deadline. Would cost more than a 5th tho, lol

 

[RGY]

I agree with RB that Kessel should only be considered after other options are exhausted

 

[Lgrsean]

They need young, long term forwards, especially centers, more than anything else. They need that more than they need to increase their Cup odds from 1% to 4%. They need it more than increasing their Cup odds from 15% to 18%. Or whatever it could be expressed as mathematically.

This team isn't beating four straight grizzled teams who are all better than the Rangers at 5 v 5 on the strength of their goaltending.

No, it wouldn't. We're not winning this year.

Accept it and make the moves that will allow you to win in a year that you'll have a chance, instead of squandering assets to make yourself feel good by winning an extra round.

Again, the scenario was the Rangers going on a run between now and the deadline where they play 7 playoff teams including PIT, TB, CAR, STL, and MIN on the road, where they would be at or near the top of the league in points. You would still dismiss the success the team is having this year to try to thread some needle some time down the road.

Even Tampa, who was able to defy the odds and win 2 cups, needed luck with late round picks, luck with picking and developing early picks, and trade deadline acquisitions, STILL needed to put a top 10 forward on LTIR for a full season to get that 2nd cup. This is the needle you are hoping to thread sometime in the next 3-5 years.

People keep citing this opportunity to suck up contracts without ever proving it's a wise thing.

Yeah, they can take on salary. Why do I want to do it? "Because we can't do it again," isn't an explanation. If I jump off a 10 story building I won't be able to do that again either, that's not an argument for doing it.

Oh yeah, moving Matthew Robertson for Richard Rackell. We won't be able to afford a Rackell-like addition next deadline. And? Who cares? Tell me again why I want a player like that. He's not moving the needle for this team. That's a delusion.

I never suggested anyone like Rakell, but there are obviously players available who do move the needle. After this year, there is little room in the cap to add to the talent on this team. When Igor's contract is up in a few years there's even less cap space to add talent to this core. But to people who don't see any need to push for a run this year, that problem is just dismissed.

History tells you again and again that a Lundkvist-level prospect and a first round pick can bring you back a core long term piece, and yes, perhaps even a center. It will be a player with an asterisk, but so what? It can and does happen so your assertion is false as it's been proven many, many, many times that Lundkvist and a first would be a tremendous package.

Your philosophy about buying is misguided. You have to treat deadline purchases as unlikely to put you over the top. You have to be ok with the loss of the asset and walking away still Cupless.

This was my assertion: "People thinking Lundkvist and a late first round pick will bring back a sure fire franchise changing young center are not being realistic."

Is the "asterisk" your talking about that the player won't be "a sure fire franchise changing young center", and then would that mean you're agreeing with the assertion that you are claiming is false? Where is the history of a Lundkvist and a late first package time and time again bringing in a no doubt young top 6 center?

This "empty the cupboard" talk is nonsense. If Lundkvist and a first round pick is all we've got, there's not much in the cupboard anyway.

If the Rangers prove themselves as contenders over the next 3-4 weeks, doing nothing might waste their best opportunity at a cup with this group. The matter of fact way that you try to claim "I'm right and you're wrong" while the Rangers continue on a 113 point pace, with Igor adding to his Vezina claim every game that we keep pace with your idea of true contenders is what's misguided. Your plan to build the perfect team is what's delusional.

 

[bobbop]

I’ve got a little different perspective on Nemeth. I have no idea what was wrong with him (or maybe a family member) but it obviously went on for a long time and perhaps it was going on before he went on leave. Maybe he has been revitalized. Nemeth wasn’t a bad signing based on past performance but he sure was a black hole earlier this year. Let’s see how he progress in the next few games. I suspect he is on a short leash but I’m rooting for him to be successful.

 

[TheGortonConspiracy]

I’ve got a little different perspective on Nemeth. I have no idea what was wrong with him (or maybe a family member) but it obviously went on for a long time and perhaps it was going on before he went on leave. Maybe he has been revitalized. Nemeth wasn’t a bad signing based on past performance but he sure was a black hole earlier this year. Let’s see how he progress in the next few games. I suspect he is on a short leash but I’m rooting for him to be successful.

Mollie Walker said it was lingering covid symptoms. Don’t have the article link but it sounded somewhat informed.

Edit link Patrik Nemeth returns to Rangers' lineup after COVID-19 bout

 

[RangersFan1994]

Wouldn’t it be funny at the deadline, the Rangers get a defenseman, but it is someone they used to have. How would anyone feel if Staal was a Ranger again at the deadline? A lot cheaper than trading for Chariot. UFA at season ends too.

 

[duhmetreE]

I’ve got a little different perspective on Nemeth. I have no idea what was wrong with him (or maybe a family member) but it obviously went on for a long time and perhaps it was going on before he went on leave. Maybe he has been revitalized. Nemeth wasn’t a bad signing based on past performance but he sure was a black hole earlier this year. Let’s see how he progress in the next few games. I suspect he is on a short leash but I’m rooting for him to be successful.

My fear is that he's just too slow

Against teams like Florida and Carolina he could cost us

 

[mas0764]

That's a hard sell to a team unless the guy has Jagr level talent. It's a completely impossible sell for a guy with no track record.

They don't even do this in baseball which is so much more an individual sport.

The team went through "the letter," in which they said they were outright trading away long time locker room favorites. I think they'll survive being told "hey, here's a talented kid who has some growing up to do, give him a hard time on the ice a little and make him grow up because we need him."

 

[Fitzy]

Wouldn’t it be funny at the deadline, the Rangers get a defenseman, but it is someone they used to have. How would anyone feel if Staal was a Ranger again at the deadline? A lot cheaper than trading for Chariot. UFA at season ends too.

I don't think he makes us any worse, but I don't think he makes us much better, either.

 

[MarkMessyay11]

I agree.

But even if it is organizational bad luck, the organization can't just take the position that the best way to run your team is to set hard and fast rules with no exceptions ever made. First of all, that's not how Gen Z kids respond anymore. That's not to say there shouldn't be rules that are maintained, but professional athletes in the 21st century do not respond to this kind of tough love as well as prior generations did, and wishing that they did won't change it.

Second of all, that's not the best way to run a team, ie, they are just wrong. These are professionals being paid millions of dollars. They don't all have to love each other in the locker room. You can't have Georgiev sucker punching Tony DeAngelo, but if some of them think Kravtsov is a spoiled brat being shown some favoritism, too f***ing bad, they'll get over it. Kakko and Lafreniere aren't losing their spots to him. And I could care less how Dryden Hunt feels if he gets demoted because of Kravtsov.

Third of all, the team has to think about more than this year's locker room and regular season outcome. In this, too many fans are lapping up the 'win now' kool-aid with the owner, apparently, being the biggest buffoon of all. The most successful organizations in pro sports have proven to be the ones that can take advantage of the other teams by playing the systems in their favor. That means asset management is literally more important to year-over-year success than anything else. The Rangers turned Kravtsov into an asset of zero value with their reaction, so they are flat wrong there in their stewardship of the franchise's assets as a duty to the fans to put out a winning product every year. They chose the "this year," over the "all years," and that's the cumulative low-value choice that makes any other year harder as has been proven again and again with all their win-now moves over the decades. They've learned nothing, which isn't surprising given it's still the same owner.

in b4 someone says "you must not manage people in a group," -- because I do.

I definitely agree with you too. Any good organization in any industry needs to make adjustments…they’re no exception. I was just responding to situations that have already occurred. Hopefully it’s a learning experience for both the players involved and for the organization. Kravstov is still part of this org and we still have plenty of good young players who haven’t made the jump yet. It will be interesting to see how they’re all handled.

 

[MarkMessyay11]

Wouldn’t it be funny at the deadline, the Rangers get a defenseman, but it is someone they used to have. How would anyone feel if Staal was a Ranger again at the deadline? A lot cheaper than trading for Chariot. UFA at season ends too.

From a sentimental perspective, I’d love that. From a team perspective, I’m not sure he’s much of an upgrade over Nemeth. That said, I’d take him at the cheaper cost over Chiarot any day of the week.

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

I’ve got a little different perspective on Nemeth. I have no idea what was wrong with him (or maybe a family member) but it obviously went on for a long time and perhaps it was going on before he went on leave. Maybe he has been revitalized. Nemeth wasn’t a bad signing based on past performance but he sure was a black hole earlier this year. Let’s see how he progress in the next few games. I suspect he is on a short leash but I’m rooting for him to be successful.

While i agree and always hope the best for players the play for the rangers but man he is unnecessary and honestly isnt very good. He is bad defensively and is a black hole offensively, he is constantly out of position when pinching, and cant move the puck out of the zone.

We have a ton of legit D prospects who are ready. Jones, Nils, Schnieder, reunenen... We do not need Nemeth on this team nor do we need the 2.5m dollars on the cap hit for him.

Just let the kids play.

Same thing with Mckegg, not sure how he is that high up on the depth chart but again we have alot of solid bottom 6 forwards who i know id like to see if they are able to play. Barron, Richards, Puj, Gettinger, Greco, and so on. SHould all be above Mckegg in the depth chart.

We all see it, Sadly, Gallant does not. I like him as a coach but man his lineup decisions are horrible

 

[RangersFan1994]

I wonder if Rangers are involved here




Was a teammate of Igor Shesterkin for his 1st year in the KHL

St. Petersburg SKA 2021-22 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

The one piece that the NYR might be feeling some pressure to move by the TDL or draft is Lundkvist.

He has been a good team player so far as his situation has played out. But he and his agent are well aware of how the NYR RD depth chart is shaking out. As well as the contenders for PP time in front of him. Is he going to report to play in Hartford next year? If / when that happens as we all know his value takes a massive hit.

Of course, other GMs know this as well and it may be factored in. However in most teams around the league I’d have to think he’d likely be an NHLer and on a lot of those, running PP2.

The next 4-5 months are likely the sweet spot for moving him.

I'd say so.

With Trouba & Fox and Schneider emerging at such a young age and not looking out of place, the right side is pretty well locked up for the foreseeable future.

I really like Nils, do you play him on the left side? Is it worth it to have a redundant Fox-like player who likely wont get the top PP minutes where he excels?

It's a shame to want to move him, but its a good problem to have at this point. This is what you wanted when the letter was sent out.

That is - if you get the right value back for him. This was the talk during the rebuild. Draft the best available, move up and take key players. Move the assets out to fill holes when needed.

If Nils is moved it would really fulfill that notion to be in a package for a young center. Because he's that good and his value is still very high. But I would really hate to move him for a rental. You dont do that now. Its shortsighted.

So what team has a bevy of top young centers in their farm like the Rangers have on D? Even if the kid doesnt play right now and improve the team for this run, its worth making the move and including the 2nd rounder if you have to. Thats a damn good package for the right young center who is a Nils level center prospect elsewhere.

 

[LORDE]

Depends how you are evaluating him.

If you are asking him to beat out Reaves for a grit role he has no chance.

If you are ok with a little more skill and less grit being inserted into the top 9, there's no chance he's not an immediate upgrade over like 4 of our current wingers.

Not sure he's responsible enough for that. I'd love to be wrong. I voted him as who would be the most impactful rookie this season. But Chytil, Strome, Goodrow, heck even Laf and Gauth would beat him out at this pt.

I'd love for him to shut up and play (and for Drury to give him that chance). I don't see it anymore but can hope.

 

[mas0764]

Again, the scenario was the Rangers going on a run between now and the deadline where they play 7 playoff teams including PIT, TB, CAR, STL, and MIN on the road, where they would be at or near the top of the league in points. You would still dismiss the success the team is having this year to try to thread some needle some time down the road.

I do not foresee a scenario in which the tiger changes it's stripes. If they are beating those teams its likely because Igor is standing on his head.

Wouldn't change how I feel about the team.

I never suggested anyone like Rakell, but there are obviously players available who do move the needle.

There aren't. There is no one available who is going to get this team over the hump to win a Cup this year.

After this year, there is little room in the cap to add to the talent on this team. When Igor's contract is up in a few years there's even less cap space to add talent to this core. But to people who don't see any need to push for a run this year, that problem is just dismissed.

It's not been dismissed; perhaps you are dismissing the answers.

We are not keeping both Kreider and Trouba here long term. People don't like to hear it, but get used to the idea.

One of them is almost certainly gone (or LTIR'd?) when things get tight. It's not out of the realm of possibility that both end up gone well before their contracts are over.

All the more reason, by the way, why they can't just trade away 3-4 young, cheap assets. With Panarin, Fox and Zibanejad here till eternity on massive deals, and Kakko, Laf and Miller needing big contracts in the not-distant future, you need that young talent. You can't trade half of it away for a guy who puts you right back in the Strome conundrum (not really good enough, too old to extend to a massive deal since he isn't 25 year old Eichel who would be worth the squeeze), who then walks in 18 months.

It's insanity. Anyone advocating for it is crazy.

This was my assertion: "People thinking Lundkvist and a late first round pick will bring back a sure fire franchise changing young center are not being realistic."

Is the "asterisk" your talking about that the player won't be "a sure fire franchise changing young center", and then would that mean you're agreeing with the assertion that you are claiming is false? Where is the history of a Lundkvist and a late first package time and time again bringing in a no doubt young top 6 center?

This team needs long term top 6 forwards with skill in general. It specifically (as opposed to generally) needs probably 2 young centers for it's top 9.

I don't know what the exact composition of those additions needs to be, but we need more. Who player B needs to be, might depend on who player A is.

I do know that a package of Lundkvist, Kravtsov, a first, and another add, is probably enough to bring back the next Eichel or Stone level player who becomes available.

Even after getting that type of long term player, it's gonna need more. There's a ways to go to finalize the long term construction here.

This "empty the cupboard" talk is nonsense. If Lundkvist and a first round pick is all we've got, there's not much in the cupboard anyway.

Yes, exactly. There's not so much in our cupboard.

Our high end prospects, who are not in the NHL as regulars already, and who might realistically be of value, to us or anyone else, right now are probably entirely the following group -

1st Rd pick
Lundkvist
Jones
Robertson
Kravtsov
Othmann
Barron

And that's about it.

Berard and Cuylle are shots in the dark, they are lottery tickets that can't be counted on still, and other teams would treat them as such in trade packages.

We have about 7 real non-NHL assets and we need most of them. Of that group we need 1 name to play RD long term, 1 or 2 names to play LD, 2 top 6 forwards, and basically a completely overhauled bottom 6. This is eventually, mind you, not this year or next year.

There are actually a lot of needs coming up for us.

If you trade half of those 7 prime assets (round up or down, either way), you are really back to being behind the 8 ball for your prospect pool. Especially if you trade them all for a piece that walks this coming offseason or next. It's insanity. You'll have nothing to spend the following year when your chance might be even better. You'll have no one to play on the third line or the third pair and you'll be stuck signing bottom-of-the-barrel free agents like Dryden Hunt who ends up on your third line.

And don't flippin' tell me I'm being unreasonable.

The Hurricanes are eating our lunch both on the ice AND in their prospect pool.

It's doable. They are just better than us.

We need to aim higher.

If the Rangers prove themselves as contenders over the next 3-4 weeks, doing nothing might waste their best opportunity at a cup with this group.

Fox, Zibanejad, Shesterkin, and Panarin are all going to be here at least 4 more years. Probably longer. This is not their best shot. They are god damned terrible at 5v5, they barely even have a shot.

They will have much, much better shots when the kids develop.

I think your panic attacks on this subject revolve more around, Chris Kreider and Jacob Trouba may never get better shots. Yeah, they might not. They both may be gone before we win a Cup. Oh well.

 

[bobbop]

The one piece that the NYR might be feeling some pressure to move by the TDL or draft is Lundkvist.

He has been a good team player so far as his situation has played out. But he and his agent are well aware of how the NYR RD depth chart is shaking out. As well as the contenders for PP time in front of him. Is he going to report to play in Hartford next year? If / when that happens as we all know his value takes a massive hit.

Of course, other GMs know this as well and it may be factored in. However in most teams around the league I’d have to think he’d likely be an NHLer and on a lot of those, running PP2.

The next 4-5 months are likely the sweet spot for moving him.

Excellent take.

 

[mas0764]

I wonder if Rangers are involved here




Was a teammate of Igor Shesterkin for his 1st year in the KHL

St. Petersburg SKA 2021-22 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

Two Russians added for the deadline, no trades. I like it.

 

[Fitzy]

It's a matter of when not if for Nils Lundkvist.

Even if Trouba gets traded in a few years NYR don't need a top prospect for a spot to play 10 minutes behind Fox and Schneider's 25 each in 3 years. It's gonna be hard enough to get Schneider 15+ a game with both Fox and Trouba here.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I wonder if Rangers are involved here




Was a teammate of Igor Shesterkin for his 1st year in the KHL

St. Petersburg SKA 2021-22 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

Same agent as Kravtsov. Make of that what you will.

 

[mas0764]

I'd say so.

With Trouba & Fox and Schneider emerging at such a young age and not looking out of place, the right side is pretty well locked up for the foreseeable future.

I really like Nils, do you play him on the left side? Is it worth it to have a redundant Fox-like player who likely wont get the top PP minutes where he excels?

It's a shame to want to move him, but its a good problem to have at this point. This is what you wanted when the letter was sent out.

That is - if you get the right value back for him. This was the talk during the rebuild. Draft the best available, move up and take key players. Move the assets out to fill holes when needed.

If Nils is moved it would really fulfill that notion to be in a package for a young center. Because he's that good and his value is still very high. But I would really hate to move him for a rental. You dont do that now. Its shortsighted.

So what team has a bevy of top young centers in their farm like the Rangers have on D? Even if the kid doesnt play right now and improve the team for this run, its worth making the move and including the 2nd rounder if you have to. Thats a damn good package for the right young center who is a Nils level center prospect elsewhere.

Kings - Byfield (unattainable), Turcotte, Kupari, Vilardi, Pinelli
Wild - Boldy, Rossi, Khusnutdinov
Ducks - Zegras (unattainable) (for now ), McTavish, Perrault
Canadiens - Jan Mysak
Hurricanes - Suzuki (unfortunately the Hurricanes probably don't want to help us and may not need a D like Nils either)
Stars - Wyatt Johnston, Mavrik Bourque, Ty Dellandrea
Jets - Perfetti, Lucious
Oilers - Holloway

As an example, I'd personally set sights on Johnston, Rossi, or Turcotte as a big fish, and then in a second deal, aim for Holloway, Khusnutdinov, or Mysak.

 

[tlk]

Same agent as Kravtsov. Make of that what you will.

Also Krav switched agents somewhere around the time (just before?) he bolted...

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Kings - Byfield (unattainable), Turcotte, Kupari, Vilardi, Pinelli
Wild - Boldy, Rossi, Khusnutdinov
Ducks - Zegras (unattainable) (for now ), McTavish, Perrault
Canadiens - Jan Mysak
Hurricanes - Suzuki (unfortunately the Hurricanes probably don't want to help us and may not need a D like Nils either)
Stars - Wyatt Johnston, Mavrik Bourque, Ty Dellandrea
Jets - Perfetti, Lucious
Oilers - Holloway

As an example, I'd personally set sights on Johnston, Rossi, or Turcotte as a big fish, and then in a second deal, aim for Holloway, Khusnutdinov, or Mysak.

I'd be intrigued with Turcotte or Rossi.