Speculation: Roster Building Thread XXXIII: 33rd thread twds the line of dead

[NYRangers0723]

So I don’t know why everyone is freaking out about this Boston deal. It’s super clear that this deal in a vacuum makes zero sense for Boston right now. Trading for a player with potential and no playoff experience. They need Kreider. They just cleared the cap space for him(they prob want to sign him). We are probably working with them on a deal that includes Kase + future picks + other prospects for Kreider right now. Calling it.

. Very Doubtful

 

[haohmaru]

Not for nothing, but having a 30/60 LW behind your 100 point top LW is really nice to have, especially when you have a 1C that is putting up almost 1.2 PPG, one of the highest scoring defenses in the league and a goalie quickly establishing himself as elite. This team is a lot farther ahead than people are willing to admit.

Imagine the meltdown if Gorton stunned everyone and was a buyer this deadline lol.

 

[RangerBoy]

Not for nothing, but having a 30/60 LW behind your 100 point top LW is really nice to have, especially when you have a 1C that is putting up almost 1.2 PPG, one of the highest scoring defenses in the league and a goalie quickly establishing himself as elite. This team is a lot farther ahead than people are willing to admit.

Farther ahead from what? What's the goal here? To put together a championship level level team which can be good for a long while? I thought that was the Rangers plan.

You think it's a good idea to give a soon to be 29 year old Kreider a 6 year contract after the Rangers gave Panarin a 7 year contract? How many years is Zibanejad getting after his current contract expires in 2 years? How much is Zibanejad getting?

The Rangers are lead by a bunch of guys in their late 20's. Their top forwards are players in their late 20's. Panarin is 28. He turns 29 by the start of next season. Kreider turns 29 this April. Zibanejad turns 27 this April. Strome will be 27 in July.

Rebuilding is different here.

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

Imagine the meltdown if Gorton stunned everyone and was a buyer this deadline lol.

Happened with the Giants...

 

[NYSPORTS]

Imagine the meltdown if Gorton stunned everyone and was a buyer this deadline lol.

if this was Sather he would likely unload a boat load of prospects to Chicago for Kane.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Happened with the Giants...

Confident in saying it wont happen here.

 

[mas0764]

Last year Kreider got hurt at the end of the year(and played through the it) otherwise he gets probably 35 goals. The year before that he gets the blood clot and comes back early to HELP the team and plays well. Year before that it was 28 goals. This year I think 30 is a better chance. Look I’ve accepted Kreider for what he is a very good top 6 player. Some still can’t get over the fact that he didn’t become a superstar. What impresses me is that he had become a better overall player especially defensively

I'm not sure who hasn't "accepted," it.

I love Kreider. I love Hank too. I wish there was a way to keep both here for the next run because they both deserve it.

But just like it doesn't make sense to keep Hank unless he takes backup money for a backup role, it doesn't make sense to keep Kreider unless it's for middle-6 money for middle-6 term and for a middle-6 role.

And that's not 7x7.

Factor in the apparent haul it has been rumored to be available (1st/high end prospect, maybe more) it's a no-brainer for a team that still very much NEEDS to be rebuilding it's forward core.

My biggest concern isn't that they "re-sign" Kreider... I think there are very concerning angles if they go that route, but there are ways around it in theory.

My biggest concern is that they decide Kakko, Panarin, and Kravtsov constitute all they need to do for the forward lineup and decide to roll with it moving forward. Ie, let's go ahead and make the playoffs, and next year we can start being buyers for playoff runs.

No, no, no, a thousand times no.

The defensive lineup we have is very well stocked. It lacks a true #1, but we have a handful of guys who are like 2s and 3s, and we have depth in spades, so I'm not worried about that. Goaltender is also good.... even if we deal Georgiev, we've got a long term starter in Shesty, we've got a current backup, if he wants to be one, in Hank, and we've got pipeline backup options as well (Wall, Huska, Lindblom).

Forward simply doesn't have enough for a multi-year run of contending like a Boston or a Los Angeles or a Chicago, yet. You'd be counting on too many older vets to keep their current level of play into the 2020's for me to feel comfortable with that, or you'd be counting on too many guys like Henricksson or Aaltonen to take steps that we don't know if they are capable of.

The team still needs forwards and the most straightforward way to get it, is high draft picks.

Otherwise they will need to get creative and lucky. I don't want to have to get lucky, I want to be so flush with assets that success is hard to miss. That's not a "fantasy." It's easily within reach if people have about one or two more years of patience with losing teams.

 

[Gardner McKay]

So I don’t know why everyone is freaking out about this Boston deal. It’s super clear that this deal in a vacuum makes zero sense for Boston right now. Trading for a player with potential and no playoff experience. They need Kreider. They just cleared the cap space for him(they prob want to sign him). We are probably working with them on a deal that includes Kase + future picks + other prospects for Kreider right now. Calling it.

I think we want Boston (and other teams) to need Kreider a lot more than they actually do. He is the top rental but that doesn't mean they need him. There are other options.

 

[gravey9]

I think he likely resigns. But if Newhook or McMichael are available in some variation of a deal you think long and hard.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

If you go look at Boston's forum they've been talking about needing a 2RW for awhile.

Kase fits that need, I can't imagine they'd flip him, especially when you consider he's signed for a reasonable price for the next two seasons

 

[mas0764]

It doesn't fit their narrative...

TANK, we need more picks.. Sell off anyone over 27 or UFA. We need moar picks

It actually fits my narrative just fine. I've been saying for some time that I think they make the playoffs next year.

I think we ARE relatively close. Which is why it's vital to ensure overwhelming talent has been acquired before we move on to contending. Once you get there, if you find you are short, it's nearly impossible to go back. Look at us from 2012-17. Had to overpay for guys like St. Louis and he didn't work out, really. And we got one Cup Final appearance out of it.

I'm just not ready to say we have enough ammo. We are close.

This year should be sacrificed for the final pieces of a long term vision.

 

[cheech70]

Can Gorts sign Kreider to an extension as a Ranger and then trade him before Monday?

 

[mas0764]

Farther ahead from what? What's the goal here? To put together a championship level level team which can be good for a long while? I thought that was the Rangers plan.

You think it's a good idea to give a soon to be 29 year old Kreider a 6 year contract after the Rangers gave Panarin a 7 year contract? How many years is Zibanejad getting after his current contract expires in 2 years? How much is Zibanejad getting?

The Rangers are lead by a bunch of guys in their late 20's. Their top forwards are players in their late 20's. Panarin is 28. He turns 29 by the start of next season. Kreider turns 29 this April. Zibanejad turns 27 this April. Strome will be 27 in July.

Rebuilding is different here.

Exactly. Our D group is nice and young, but our forward group is not one that you look at and think, "There's a decade contender." Kakko is one main piece. Chytil appears to be another. Kravtsov we hope will be one. Panarin has a decent chance to be contributing at a top-line or top-6 role, 5 years from now.

But counting on Zbad and Kreider and even Buch at that time frame is a dangerous proposition.

We need more talent for our future top 6 still. We have a chance to get it this season.

But some people, possibly management included, would rather a playoff run that I cannot possibly agree helps the team in the long run more than it would be to have, say, Tim Stutzle.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

It actually fits my narrative just fine. I've been saying for some time that I think they make the playoffs next year.

I think we ARE relatively close. Which is why it's vital to ensure overwhelming talent has been acquired before we move on to contending. Once you get there, if you find you are short, it's nearly impossible to go back. Look at us from 2012-17. Had to overpay for guys like St. Louis and he didn't work out, really. And we got one Cup Final appearance out of it.

I'm just not ready to say we have enough ammo. We are close.

This year should be sacrificed for the final pieces of a long term vision.

You make it sound like the kid they pick at 9 or 11 or Tim Stutzle is a guarantee to make it and be an impact player. Guys bust all the time. I don't care how deep this draft is, not everyone picked in the top 15 is going to make it to the NHL or live up to the hype.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Some of you guys really believe you can win with 0 veteran leadership?

Kreider needs to be resigned. Him, Zibanejad and Panarin are the core leadership of this team. Panarin more so by example since he doesn't wear a letter but you get my point. You can't just have 15 21-23 year olds leading you to a cup. Every single cup winner since the last lockout has had strong veteran leadership alongside young talent.

 

[Levitate]

I'm not sure who hasn't "accepted," it.

I love Kreider. I love Hank too. I wish there was a way to keep both here for the next run because they both deserve it.

But just like it doesn't make sense to keep Hank unless he takes backup money for a backup role, it doesn't make sense to keep Kreider unless it's for middle-6 money for middle-6 term and for a middle-6 role.

And that's not 7x7.

Factor in the apparent haul it has been rumored to be available (1st/high end prospect, maybe more) it's a no-brainer for a team that still very much NEEDS to be rebuilding it's forward core.

My biggest concern isn't that they "re-sign" Kreider... I think there are very concerning angles if they go that route, but there are ways around it in theory.

My biggest concern is that they decide Kakko, Panarin, and Kravtsov constitute all they need to do for the forward lineup and decide to roll with it moving forward. Ie, let's go ahead and make the playoffs, and next year we can start being buyers for playoff runs.

No, no, no, a thousand times no.

The defensive lineup we have is very well stocked. It lacks a true #1, but we have a handful of guys who are like 2s and 3s, and we have depth in spades, so I'm not worried about that. Goaltender is also good.... even if we deal Georgiev, we've got a long term starter in Shesty, we've got a current backup, if he wants to be one, in Hank, and we've got pipeline backup options as well (Wall, Huska, Lindblom).

Forward simply doesn't have enough for a multi-year run of contending like a Boston or a Los Angeles or a Chicago, yet. You'd be counting on too many older vets to keep their current level of play into the 2020's for me to feel comfortable with that, or you'd be counting on too many guys like Henricksson or Aaltonen to take steps that we don't know if they are capable of.

The team still needs forwards and the most straightforward way to get it, is high draft picks.

Otherwise they will need to get creative and lucky. I don't want to have to get lucky, I want to be so flush with assets that success is hard to miss. That's not a "fantasy." It's easily within reach if people have about one or two more years of patience with losing teams.

To be completely honest, the "stock forwards with high draft picks" method isn't going to result in this team being a competitor. You're going to always be patching holes and continuing to say "we just need to draft another impact player" because you're having to replace a Kreider, a Zibanejad, a Panarin, and so forth.

It may be tough to swallow but I think what we're looking at here is the Rangers saying "we need to have a window that opens in 1-2 years of being competitive and trying to win the cup". The Rangers aren't going to wait around constantly trying to find picks and prospects to replace their high end players, they're going to try to win soon with their high end players.
That's why they're still looking for a way to re-sign Kreider.

And again, I dont' think that's a crazy idea...it might not work at all, but again you also can't spend your time running back and forth trying to plug holes in your lineup because you're always waiting for your picks and prospects to replace your elite players while in the meantime other players are aging off your roster and you're trying to sell them for picks and prospects to replace players but now you have to replace those guys and so on and so forth. Constant roster churn isn't a good thing if you ultimately want to win a cup.

The trick for the Rangers may ultimately be quickly building back up into a competitive team but not decimating their farm system like they did in the mid teens trying to go for the cup, but instead keep a steady trickle of solid prospects and players joining the team and as assets to acquire other pieces.

 

[LORDE]

Not for nothing, but having a 30/60 LW behind your 100 point top LW is really nice to have, especially when you have a 1C that is putting up almost 1.2 PPG, one of the highest scoring defenses in the league and a goalie quickly establishing himself as elite. This team is a lot farther ahead than people are willing to admit.

While there is a TON of truth in this post, you could easily flip it and talk all about the deficiencies of this team’s defense as a whole and discuss just how epically distant they are from contention.
We also missed big w Andersson and Kravtsov is a big ?

So when we are talking about windows and contending and how far along we are, we should note that we gave out two massive contracts this past off season and signing Kreider to another may not be wise at this stage.

 

[duhmetreE]

Farther ahead from what? What's the goal here? To put together a championship level level team which can be good for a long while? I thought that was the Rangers plan.

You think it's a good idea to give a soon to be 29 year old Kreider a 6 year contract after the Rangers gave Panarin a 7 year contract? How many years is Zibanejad getting after his current contract expires in 2 years? How much is Zibanejad getting?

The Rangers are lead by a bunch of guys in their late 20's. Their top forwards are players in their late 20's. Panarin is 28. He turns 29 by the start of next season. Kreider turns 29 this April. Zibanejad turns 27 this April. Strome will be 27 in July.

Rebuilding is different here.

Yes, they're led by players in their mid-late 20's now.. What do you want teenagers to be leading the team?

In 5-7 years there will be a transition. When these kids are due for UFA money, Panarin and Kreider come off the books. The kids now become the vets and hopefully by then we have a new infusion of youth. This is a never ending process.

I honestly dont understand how people cant see this.

Take your blinders off. You're so gungho on 'your way' which isn't really an option. You have to put a product on the ice. You have to be somewhat competitive. You need to create an environment that breeds success. This isn't make believe, there's peoples careers at stake.

Sucking until Kakko and Chytil are ready to lead in 7 years is not a 'plan'

 

[NYROrtsFan]

Assuming we re-sign Kreider, and with Zibenjad and Panarin, I think it's becoming clear that our initial window here is in the next 4 seasons.

 

[Barnaby]

Boston moved their first so I’d want Vaak and Beecher coming back in any CK deal. Otherwise STL, Col, or Dallas it is...

 

[Thirty One]

Some of you guys really believe you can win with 0 veteran leadership?

No. I think they can find it cheaper though.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I'm still of the belief that signing Kreider, regardless of what it's for, puts a clock on this team it doesn't need at this very moment.

 

[Yankeekid07]

Anybody have a remote control so we can fast forward to Monday at 5pm?

Would do wonders to my health.

 

[Leonardo87]

If you go look at Boston's forum they've been talking about needing a 2RW for awhile.

Kase fits that need, I can't imagine they'd flip him, especially when you consider he's signed for a reasonable price for the next two seasons

Problem with Kase is staying healthy.

 

[mas0764]

You make it sound like the kid they pick at 9 or 11 is a guarantee to make it and be an impact player. Guys bust all the time. I don't care how deep this draft is, not everyone picked in the top 15 is going to make it to the NHL or live up to the hype.

Assuredly not. I am not implying that, though perhaps you are inferring it.

But again, we need more talent in the top 6 for the intermediate-to-long term. Kreider and Zbad cannot be counted on to be it.

If there was a way to keep them AND get a player of Newhook's caliber, I'm all for it, but the fact is, while it's no guarantee that players picked at "9 or 11" are gonna be stars, it's way more likely to find impact players there than it is picking in the 20s.

There's not enough to be gained by making the playoffs this year other than instant gratification to the sore spot of two straight missed playoffs. "Playoff experience" is important, yes, but it can and will be acquired next season or the season after, there is no substitute for acquiring top end talent. You have to take your shot now; and what's more, I would advocate doing everything possible to move up to get a guy you really feel good about, thus minimizing bust potential.