Roster Building Thread VI (2022-23): Offseason edition

[surlysailor]

I'd love to get all of Panarin's space off the books in its entirety, but the reality is that if he's moved its probably going to take retention AND taking back some salary.

Taking back salary makes more sense for where this team is right now since you want bodies you can use now rather than just draft picks who won't be ready to help for 3-5 years. Hopefully Barkov continues to be underwhelming for Florida en route to them getting pumped by Carolina and they think that Panarin is the antidote.

Moving him this off season doesn't make sense for the reasons you said. If you wait a year and he either he builds up his trade value by having another 90 point season or at the worst teams will have a lot more cap space to absorb his full contract with a lesser return when the cap rises.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Moving him this off season doesn't make sense for the reasons you said. If you wait a year and he either he builds up his trade value by having another 90 point season or at the worst teams will have a lot more cap space to absorb his full contract with a lesser return when the cap rises.

Or he regresses and no one wants him at all with out attaching assets.

And you let him pollute the team more than he already has.

There are teams that can fit him in now but no matter the situation NO one is taking on the full 11.6 hit with out sending something back or the Rangers retaining. Thats a ton of money. Better suited for sure, but its a heavy hit.

 

[NYR Viper]

My only concern with that is that we have like $100 in cap space.

I'm not thinking of guys like Pacioretty really. Even guys like Nick Ritchie, Josh Leivo, Adam Erne. Guys who can take a NHL shift, add something, but won't be in their way completely. I'm just using those guys as examples of guys I would sign, perhaps not them specifically (except Leivo, who I would sign)

 

[Machinehead]

We don't need to lean less on Fox. We need to lean more on Fox and play our other shitty pairs less.

Heiskanen, Doughty, Dahlin, Karlsson, Makar, and Hughes all play more than he did per game in 2023. He's under-utilized for a player of his caliber, not over-utilized.

The wacky theory that he was tired is a complete non-issue based on literally one mistake. He was our best player against the Devils. This was the CF% and xGF% of some of their forwards against Fox:

Bratt - 43% , 44%
Hischier - 45%, 40%
Meier - 37%, 28%
Mercer - 37%, 14%
Tatar - 47%, 52%

Hughes and his most common linemates were effective against Fox and that's about it. That's f***ing Jack Hughes and keep in mind that this is a series in general where the Rangers got obliterated in CF% and xGF%.

Fox played less in the playoffs than he did in the regular season. Gallant has one braincell. His team is getting bulled at even strength and he plays his best 5v5 player less instead of spamming him. Heiskanen is averaging 28 per game. f*** around with mid players in the postseason and find out.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I would fully, unironically rather have Vesey in the top 9 than Goodrow.

That seems like an obvious statement. He was part of 2 or 3 of the Rangers best lines all season and fills the role that everyone is clamoring for Fast to return and fill. Goodrow isn't capable of that.

 

[bleedblue94]

I get that cap is an asset, but drury is not going to tear this team down. Also you are throwing away a 90 point player, a 21 y/o first overall pick who may not be what we hoped for but is at least a top 9 player for 2 picks who may not be ready for at least 3-4 years, a complete scrub. Then Drury since he is in a cup or bust mode is going throw money away for a mediocre fa crop or give up other assets for players just to fill in the holes he created? For what? An at best a prayer to get into the playoffs? Also it’s not like Laf is going to command a ton as a rfa, he’s got to get the same if not maybe .1 more than KK.

again, just because you would see a stripped roster right now doesnt mean that slots would not be filled prior to the season. laffy is a mess waiting to happen with his contract status. if it drags out there are teams that could easily toss the offer sheet to him for 1 year that nyr cant match. there were questions about that with kakko last summer and there are a couple teams kicking themselves for not doing it bc kakko took a big step this year. for some teams laffy could just be a player that needs a change. i believe the issues with him run deeper than just that, but that is for another conversation.

also, panarin is not building up his value more if he has another 90 point season. people know what he is and they also know he is 32 in october. he is getting old by nhl standards. dont kid yourself. we can already see a decline in his play and that isnt going to just magically get better. if you can move him today you do it. you want opportunities for other players, you move him. you want to change the attitude around this team, you move him. you want cap flexibility, you move him. you want a shot at one of the big ufas next summer, you move him. if the opportunity arises, you move him...

 

[DanielBrassard]

View attachment 706052

5v5 forward chance creation against the Devils.

Lafreniere sucks, Kakko doesn't, part 69.

Panarin still the best playmaker on the team by far, but he's terrible and has to be booted off the team and replaced by the guy who has been a terrible playmaker as an NHL player. I too want the #1 overall pick in 2024.

 

[McRanger92]

What competition? You dont have competition if it is rigged, and what you described (accurate) is literally the complete opposite of competition haha.

Players here for the last 2 years knew their spot and their role. There was no competition bc regardless of play and such players still had their role. Trouba even alluded to this as an issue the night of the helmet toss.

I dont really think that's true. Kakko started on the top line and when their finishing didnt match their expected output, he was the one demoted, not his veteran linemates. I frankly dont care if there is competition for roster spots because were not a rebuilder right now. Cuylle had 25 goals and was an AHL all star last year. He should be looked at as a piece of the bottom 6 on the NHL roster because they dont have 6 guys better than him for that role in the organization. At this point thats all that matters to me.

 

[surlysailor]

again, just because you would see a stripped roster right now doesnt mean that slots would not be filled prior to the season. laffy is a mess waiting to happen with his contract status. if it drags out there are teams that could easily toss the offer sheet to him for 1 year that nyr cant match. there were questions about that with kakko last summer and there are a couple teams kicking themselves for not doing it bc kakko took a big step this year. for some teams laffy could just be a player that needs a change. i believe the issues with him run deeper than just that, but that is for another conversation.

also, panarin is not building up his value more if he has another 90 point season. people know what he is and they also know he is 32 in october. he is getting old by nhl standards. dont kid yourself. we can already see a decline in his play and that isnt going to just magically get better. if you can move him today you do it. you want opportunities for other players, you move him. you want to change the attitude around this team, you move him. you want cap flexibility, you move him. you want a shot at one of the big ufas next summer, you move him. if the opportunity arises, you move him...

Ok, I’ve never said don’t move panarin, but you need to have a full on plan, because drury is in a win now mode, and to throw laff into that mediocre deal because of his contract situation? How does that make sense. If you move panarin what’s the situation? Some team is going to offer him a 5 mil contract? a) if panarin is gone you can afford b) you don’t want to take it, take the compensation, it will be worth more than just throwing him a deal to get an extra 2nd? Also you’re right it is the nhl, there is always teams willing to take on a 90 point player, esp when he only has 2 years left by then. Subban got traded to njd while having an 9mil deal and was on a downward trend, gaborik was traded for 3 pieces when he was up and down and had a full ntc, Everyone thought Eichel was a malcontent and no one would want him and he still got a good return. If Toronto can’t re-sign both Nylander & Matthew’s they wouldn’t give nyr a call? I think talking in absolutes and knowing what will happen is b.s. I might be wrong and y’all might be right but I don’t think Drurys idea is to fire the coach and blow up the team for players he doesn’t know.

 

[bleedblue94]

I dont really think that's true. Kakko started on the top line and when their finishing didnt match their expected output, he was the one demoted, not his veteran linemates. I frankly dont care if there is competition for roster spots because were not a rebuilder right now. Cuylle had 25 goals and was an AHL all star last year. He should be looked at as a piece of the bottom 6 on the NHL roster because they dont have 6 guys better than him for that role in the organization. At this point thats all that matters to me.

kakko was put there to smooth out what happened last year. he was never keeping the spot. turk just didnt like him for whatever reason. kakko leaves you scratching your head sometimes but you can see there is a player in there that just needs to be cultivated and brought to the surface. turk flat out said he was here to win games and not to develop players (so f***ing stupid, you win more by developing your player to be better, ALL you players).

cuylle can come here and earn a spot, i hope he does, but handing him a roster spot bc we dont have better options is more about drury and this roster than it is about cuylle. i hope he is good enought o force his way in. but i dont want him here on the 4th line (idiotic to do that to another kid), and currently there is not any room on any of the top 3. if he is not able to earn a top 9 spot then i want him in the ahl player and developing his offense instead of buried on the 4th line or strictly bottom 6

 

[SA16]

They're veterans who can fill a role for a short period of time and play the style of game the team is looking for

They fill the role of "bad player that helps the team lose games." I wouldn't call them veterans either. Blidh is 28 years old and has played 84 career games. Lockwood is 24 years old with 28 total games played and 1 point.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I could find someone who puts up Panarin's playoff playmaking numbers at half his price tag while playing an actual multi dimensional game.

Now going scoreless in 6 straight is a mix of him being bad, his team mates being bad and some bad luck but he gets paid way too much to be bad in important games. We've dealt with this for 2 runs now and he didn't have the excuse of injured linemates (or perhaps himself being injured) this time around, and he was even WORSE.

Oh so he makes the occasional royal road pass that gets through! Great, but for every 1 there are 9 that didn't and and no chance to even get through and end up turning into wasted possession. Outside of funneling himself into a corner because he just flat out refuses to extend zone time by keeping things simple, this is by far the biggest mark against him. I don't care what system gets put in place next, but this is the kind of shit that NEEDS to stop and he won't stop doing it.

I don't even want to diminish the importance of having some element of what he brings on the team because well, you still need it but he doesn't do enough of the other things that contribute to offense to justify not only the price tag, but to keep him here at all.

 

[bleedblue94]

Ok, I’ve never said don’t move panarin, but you need to have a full on plan, because drury is in a win now mode, and to throw laff into that mediocre deal because of his contract situation? How does that make sense. If you move panarin what’s the situation? Some team is going to offer him a 5 mil contract? a) if panarin is gone you can afford b) you don’t want to take it, take the compensation, it will be worth more than just throwing him a deal to get an extra 2nd? Also you’re right it is the nhl, there is always teams willing to take on a 90 point player, esp when he only has 2 years left by then. Subban got traded to njd while having an 9mil deal and was on a downward trend, gaborik was traded for 3 pieces when he was up and down and had a full ntc, Everyone thought Eichel was a malcontent and no one would want him and he still got a good return. If Toronto can’t re-sign both Nylander & Matthew’s they wouldn’t give nyr a call? I think talking in absolutes and knowing what will happen is b.s. I might be wrong and y’all might be right but I don’t think Drurys idea is to fire the coach and blow up the team for players he doesn’t know.

you are trying to say trade him when something better presents itself, but that something wont just be available to nyr and then you are in a bidding war to clear space, and the longer you wait the harder it is to trade him if you even can.

I am not fly by the seat of my pants on this. i have been on this train for 18 months with @LokiDog

the things you are shooting at me i already know. you bring up gaborik, subban, and others as if they are not the poster child for why teams dont want to take on those kind of players later in their careers and with term and money left. age is a real thing and teams dont want money and term tied to players over their 30s anymore. this is exactly why if you cant unload a 32 year old one dimension winger that avoids traffic and is a flop in the playoffs while having the second highest cap hit in the league you absolutely move it to just move on from the situation. if someone was willing to give us a 2nd rounder and take all of panarins contract i would do that in a nano second.

 

[surlysailor]

you are trying to say trade him when something better presents itself, but that something wont just be available to nyr and then you are in a bidding war to clear space, and the longer you wait the harder it is to trade him if you even can.

I am not fly by the seat of my pants on this. i have been on this train for 18 months with @LokiDog

the things you are shooting at me i already know. you bring up gaborik, subban, and others as if they are not the poster child for why teams dont want to take on those kind of players later in their careers and with term and money left. age is a real thing and teams dont want money and term tied to players over their 30s anymore. this is exactly why if you cant unload a 32 year old one dimension winger that avoids traffic and is a flop in the playoffs while having the second highest cap hit in the league you absolutely move it to just move on from the situation. if someone was willing to give us a 2nd rounder and take all of panarins contract i would do that in a nano second.

That’s fair and I understand the point. I might not agree with it but it’s not unreasonable. I don’t get why are you throwing laffy in the deal because of his contract? You clear the space you have room for him or wait for a team to overpay him in an offer sheet and take that. Basically you’re saying panarin for a 2nd and then laf for 20th and Dickenson who is very meh and paid 2.6 for another 2 years.

 

[Machinehead]

I could find someone who puts up Panarin's playoff playmaking numbers at half his price tag while playing an actual multi dimensional game.

Now going scoreless in 6 straight is a mix of him being bad, his team mates being bad and some bad luck but he gets paid way too much to be bad in important games. We've dealt with this for 2 runs now and he didn't have the excuse of injured linemates (or perhaps himself being injured) this time around, and he was even WORSE.

Oh so he makes the occasional royal road pass that gets through! Great, but for every 1 there are 9 that didn't and and no chance to even get through and end up turning into wasted possession. Outside of funneling himself into a corner because he just flat out refuses to extend zone time by keeping things simple, this is by far the biggest mark against him. I don't care what system gets put in place next, but this is the kind of shit that NEEDS to stop and he won't stop doing it.

I don't even want to diminish the importance of having some element of what he brings on the team because well, you still need it but he doesn't do enough of the other things that contribute to offense to justify not only the price tag, but to keep him here at all.

The idea that we would be replacing Panarin with other players who can do what he does is extremely optimistic. We would be retaining. Literally, nobody has Panarin's cap hit in available space.

It would be player, not plural, and there's a very good chance that's a downgrade.

 

[McRanger92]

I could find someone who puts up Panarin's playoff playmaking numbers at half his price tag while playing an actual multi dimensional game.

Now going scoreless in 6 straight is a mix of him being bad, his team mates being bad and some bad luck but he gets paid way too much to be bad in important games. We've dealt with this for 2 runs now and he didn't have the excuse of injured linemates (or perhaps himself being injured) this time around, and he was even WORSE.

Oh so he makes the occasional royal road pass that gets through! Great, but for every 1 there are 9 that didn't and and no chance to even get through and end up turning into wasted possession. Outside of funneling himself into a corner because he just flat out refuses to extend zone time by keeping things simple, this is by far the biggest mark against him. I don't care what system gets put in place next, but this is the kind of shit that NEEDS to stop and he won't stop doing it.

I don't even want to diminish the importance of having some element of what he brings on the team because well, you still need it but he doesn't do enough of the other things that contribute to offense to justify not only the price tag, but to keep him here at all.

I would be willing to give it more of a go with Panarin if he actually addressed his playoff struggles publicly instead of in private conversations with the beat writers to make him look sympathetic. I'm no Gallant fan and wanted him fired, but Panarin is getting off pretty easy in the media for his 3rd playoff no show in 4 years. At least as fans we can see media appearances by Mika, Trouba, Kreider, Fox taking it on the chin for the loss, while Panarin hides behind not speaking English (which isnt true) and having a Nokia phone. So quirky!

It's naive to think this doesn't weigh on the other players. You could see it on breakup day that certain players were openly advocating for bigger roles (Chytil & Kakko) or flat out angry about how the series went (Trocheck, KAM). The whole team gets jerked around to accommodate Panarin, and to a lesser extent Mika/Kreider, who then doesnt show up and doesnt answer for it after. He may not be a bad teammate, but he does a lot of things a bad teammate would do.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The idea that we would be replacing Panarin with other players who can do what he does is extremely optimistic. We would be retaining. Literally, nobody has Panarin's cap hit in available space.

It would be player, not plural, and there's a very good chance that's a downgrade.

In pure production? Almost for sure.

In overall impact? Debatable.

I don't see why we should be looking at it 1 for 1. Even with retaining, we'll likely open up space for an additional body or 2. It's not like we only have ONE area on the team that can use improvement, I see like 8.

 

[Machinehead]

Arturo Panarin no habla Inglés

 

[Machinehead]

In pure production? Almost for sure.

In overall impact? Debatable.

I don't see why we should be looking at it 1 for 1. Even with retaining, we'll likely open up space for an additional body or 2. It's not like we only have ONE area on the team that can use improvement.

Half of Panarin's salary gets you one good player with a lot of luck.

 

[haohmaru]

Lafreniere does not need to be forced into a top six role.

But…but… he “can’t develop” unless he does…

 

[CLW]

My other issue with trading Panarin right now is that we don't exactly have the LW depth we think we do.

Lafreniere does not need to be forced into a top six role.

There is no point in playing Laf on the third line next season. Trade him if that's what the org sees.

 

[Machinehead]

I think everyone has the Gaborik trade in mind when they envision trading Panarin. I think we're forgetting a few things:

-John Moore ate glue and we had Dorsett for half a season. It was Gaborik for Brassard 1 for 1 which is what I think this ends up being if it happens.
-Brassard literally only being good with the Rangers was obscene luck.
-Panarin to Rangers Brassard is still a massive downgrade.
-This team does not win the Cup if you sub out Panarin for Rangers Brassard.
-This team possibly doesn't make the playoffs if you do that.
-After everyone said the same things about Gaborik as they're saying about Panarin, he beat us for the Cup the very next year and was OUTSTANDING in that run. I think it's because his team was actually good enough to win or something, Idk...
-Flipping Brassard for Zibanejad was even more obscene luck and it's disingenuous to include that as part of the Gaborik deal.

I'm open to it and I understand the frustration with the player, but expect the team to get worse. Full stop.

 

[Anthony5967]

There is no point in playing Laf on the third line next season. Trade him if that's what the org sees.

Yea, I too am growing tired of this. The "what has he proven" crowd that echo that with Kakko too, I don't know what you want, I really don't. It just goes to show you how little, and I know this sounds rude, know about developing players. What do the million veterans earn after they punt a series up 2-0? I don't need to see year five of Kakko as a third line, 14:30 a game player with 15 seconds of PP time a game. I am sick of it. Same with Laf. Chytil was great this year, and what did it do for him? Earned him a nice 14 mins a game. These guys would be 60+ point guys by now on most dumpster fires if they were developed properly. And it's not like the NYR can fall back on the fact that they have won anything. They're an embarrassment going on 83 years now.

 

[Machinehead]

Yea, I too am growing tired of this. The "what has he proven" crowd that echo that with Kakko too, I don't know what you want, I really don't. It just goes to show you how little, and I know this sounds rude, know about developing players. What do the million veterans earn after they punt a series up 2-0? I don't need to see year five of Kakko as a third line, 14:30 a game player with 15 seconds of PP time a game. I am sick of it. Same with Laf. Chytil was great this year, and what did it do for him? Earned him a nice 14 mins a game. These guys would be 60+ point guys by now on most dumpster fires if they were developed properly. And it's not like the NYR can fall back on the fact that they have won anything. They're an embarrassment going on 83 years now.

They play as much as the vets do at even strength. Lafreniere and Kakko actually played more than Kreider at even strength. Zibanejad played 11 more ES minutes than Kakko did the entire year. Eleven.

It's just special teams. That's the entire difference. I'm not sure where Kakko fits on our powerplay even if he deserves it and Lafreniere is quite literally one of the worst powerplay players in the last 30 years.

 

[JimmyG89]

Then again, I still have hope that Panarin could fit what we were doing if we actually did something as a team instead of "everyone jump in the pool."

My other issue with trading Panarin right now is that we don't exactly have the LW depth we think we do.

Lafreniere does not need to be forced into a top six role.

Wouldn't this go both ways though? We can say that we haven't seen Lafreniere do it at the NHL level, but at the same time, has the coaching been ideal for him to actually grow?

If Panarin's regression is in part because everyone just jumps into the pool, is Lafreniere's growth and development also stymied by this same factor? I'd expect someone that is a near 10 year veteran in the league to be able to jump in the pool and make it work while someone who doesn't have that to fall back on to and fall on their face.

If this is Drury's mindset, neither will be going anywhere in the offseason, and I'm more inclined to think they'll hope whoever they get to be the coach gets them to that spot.