Roster Building Thread VI (2022-23): Offseason edition
- Thread starter Gardner McKay
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Hell no to Knobloch. This season a fair amount of Hartford fans (on here) were discussing how he should not be back for Hartford next year.. He barely got a veteran team in the playoffs. Sure the trade deadline helped but Hartford was floundering until then and got in to the playoffs around the last 2-3 games. No forward has has came up from Hartford and grabbed a spot from NYR, his player development has been crap in my opinion. Hopefully Cuylle will be a nyr in the next year or 2, but that has nothing to do with the way KK handled him. Also Drury lobbied for Quinn, and fired him. Drury is the one who hired GG, maybe Dolan nudged him but it was still Drury who hired him.
From one of Brooks article: "So the decision on Quinn by Drury will not be influenced by their Boston University kinship. It will not be colored by the fact that Drury was an enthusiastic supporter of Quinn when he became a candidate to succeed Alain Vigneault behind the bench following 2017-18."
The determining factor in Chris Drury’s massive David Quinn decision
The decision on David Quinn by Chris Drury will not be influenced by their Boston University kinship.
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McRanger92
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McRanger92
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Hell no to Knobloch. This season a fair amount of Hartford fans (on here) were discussing how he should not be back for Hartford next year.. He barely got a veteran team in the playoffs. Sure the trade deadline helped but Hartford was floundering until then and got in to the playoffs around the last 2-3 games. No forward has has came up from Hartford and grabbed a spot from NYR, his player development has been crap in my opinion. Hopefully Cuylle will be a nyr in the next year or 2, but that has nothing to do with the way KK handled him. Also Drury lobbied for Quinn, and fired him. Drury is the one who hired GG, maybe Dolan nudged him but it was still Drury who hired him.
From one of Brooks article: "So the decision on Quinn by Drury will not be influenced by their Boston University kinship. It will not be colored by the fact that Drury was an enthusiastic supporter of Quinn when he became a candidate to succeed Alain Vigneault behind the bench following 2017-18."
The determining factor in Chris Drury’s massive David Quinn decision
The decision on David Quinn by Chris Drury will not be influenced by their Boston University kinship.
The appeal of Knobluach is that he is an extension of management. Clearly there is dissention among the coaching staff, which has hopefully not bled too much into the players but ya know. The team needs a clear message so they players can just play. Knob is a younger coach who might have a more fresh take on things and Drury has already called him up to coach the NHL team on multiple occasions already. If you can't get Sullivan, go with the organization guy who is on the same page as the President & GM. It just should not be Gallant.
MrAlmost
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Rangers fans: We need a new coach that wants to be more aggressive. More forecheck. More speed.
Quinn: We need to be more aggressive. More forecheck. More speed.
Rangers Players: No.
Rangers Fans: Coach has no plan. No tactics. Bad. FIRE!
Rangers fans: We need a new coach that wants to be more aggressive. More forecheck. More speed.
Gallant: We need to be more aggressive. More forecheck. More speed.
Rangers Players: No.
Rangers Fans: Coach has no plan. No tactics. Bad. FIRE!
Rangers fans: We need a new coach that wants to be more aggressive. More forecheck. More speed.
Who's next?
Quinn: We need to be more aggressive. More forecheck. More speed.
Rangers Players: No.
Rangers Fans: Coach has no plan. No tactics. Bad. FIRE!
Rangers fans: We need a new coach that wants to be more aggressive. More forecheck. More speed.
Gallant: We need to be more aggressive. More forecheck. More speed.
Rangers Players: No.
Rangers Fans: Coach has no plan. No tactics. Bad. FIRE!
Rangers fans: We need a new coach that wants to be more aggressive. More forecheck. More speed.
Who's next?
I posted this in the Laf thread but it’s at the bottom of a longer post and will get lost in debate. This is my main concern though:
I never said trade Laf. What I’ve said is, we need to be realistic about what we have. Laf and Kakko were supposed to be elite, franchise defining talents and the success of this iteration of the NYR essentially rested on their success as, if not franchise players, at least all-star level talents. We struck out and now this roster will follow the exact same life cycle as the Lundqvist Rangers who lacked the high end internally developed offensive talent to get over the hump. I’ve said we need to stop deluding ourselves into insisting “there’s still hope” for Laf, not because he can’t grow into a 60 point player and salvage his career, but because a 60 point player won’t do shit for US in terms of finally having a young, home grown, team controlled elite offensive talent. Good for Laf if he figures it out and has a career to match Kreider’s. If you really think he can reach a level like Mika or Tage, personally I think you are legitimately insane, and without him reaching a Tage or Hughes type of level, even if HE has a nice little career for himself, WE are headed for another 10 years of no Cups and frustration, watching a perennial Norris candidate and Vezina candidate waste their careers.
This really isn’t about me hating the kid. I’ve already said I’m not talking about trading the kid. This is about me being beyond frustrated that we FINALLY had two cracks at a TRUE elite offensive talent BEFORE his prime and we didn’t even just get like a low end elite talent. We got Laf and Kakko. I’m just trying to be realistic about what their failures to be 80-100 point talents means for the NYR future. It means we don’t have the pieces or the horses and because of the contracts we gave out - relying on the ELC/bridge years of the kids to bring cheap performance at a high level and augment the expensive vets, we are stuck. It feels like the future is quite bleak when it was so bright only 2 years ago.
I never said trade Laf. What I’ve said is, we need to be realistic about what we have. Laf and Kakko were supposed to be elite, franchise defining talents and the success of this iteration of the NYR essentially rested on their success as, if not franchise players, at least all-star level talents. We struck out and now this roster will follow the exact same life cycle as the Lundqvist Rangers who lacked the high end internally developed offensive talent to get over the hump. I’ve said we need to stop deluding ourselves into insisting “there’s still hope” for Laf, not because he can’t grow into a 60 point player and salvage his career, but because a 60 point player won’t do shit for US in terms of finally having a young, home grown, team controlled elite offensive talent. Good for Laf if he figures it out and has a career to match Kreider’s. If you really think he can reach a level like Mika or Tage, personally I think you are legitimately insane, and without him reaching a Tage or Hughes type of level, even if HE has a nice little career for himself, WE are headed for another 10 years of no Cups and frustration, watching a perennial Norris candidate and Vezina candidate waste their careers.
This really isn’t about me hating the kid. I’ve already said I’m not talking about trading the kid. This is about me being beyond frustrated that we FINALLY had two cracks at a TRUE elite offensive talent BEFORE his prime and we didn’t even just get like a low end elite talent. We got Laf and Kakko. I’m just trying to be realistic about what their failures to be 80-100 point talents means for the NYR future. It means we don’t have the pieces or the horses and because of the contracts we gave out - relying on the ELC/bridge years of the kids to bring cheap performance at a high level and augment the expensive vets, we are stuck. It feels like the future is quite bleak when it was so bright only 2 years ago.
Oscar Lindberg
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Have mentioned it before and promise this’ll be the last time.
The other day I watched the 2015 1OA and 2OA playing on the same ice at the same time and marvelled at the talent.
Then I remembered Laf and KK and sighed.
I’ll eat my hat if either of those boys is ever good enough to tie the skates of the aforementioned players.
Hell no to Knobloch. This season a fair amount of Hartford fans (on here) were discussing how he should not be back for Hartford next year.. He barely got a veteran team in the playoffs. Sure the trade deadline helped but Hartford was floundering until then and got in to the playoffs around the last 2-3 games. No forward has has came up from Hartford and grabbed a spot from NYR, his player development has been crap in my opinion. Hopefully Cuylle will be a nyr in the next year or 2, but that has nothing to do with the way KK handled him. Also Drury lobbied for Quinn, and fired him. Drury is the one who hired GG, maybe Dolan nudged him but it was still Drury who hired him.
From one of Brooks article: "So the decision on Quinn by Drury will not be influenced by their Boston University kinship. It will not be colored by the fact that Drury was an enthusiastic supporter of Quinn when he became a candidate to succeed Alain Vigneault behind the bench following 2017-18."
The determining factor in Chris Drury’s massive David Quinn decision
The decision on David Quinn by Chris Drury will not be influenced by their Boston University kinship.
Thank you.
I don't think you can really disregard the impact Knoblauch had on Cuylle though. He improved dramatically as the season went on under his watch. What ever it was that caused the switch to go off for him, it came under Knobloauch's watch.
On the player development thing, he's had what, 2 legitimate NHL forward prospects to work with in his time down in Hartford? One of them being Barron (who is now an NHL regular somewhere else) and Cuylle who had a very nice year and got in a few games this year. The Rangers haven't exactly been an easy team to grab a spot on, we have a shit load of vets and you don't want to try to develop younger guys on the 4th line so I don't really think this is a fair criticism.
I don't think he's an option for the sole reason that he doesn't have any NHL HC experience. If they go on a deep run just menacing their opponents to death I may change my tune but I don't think you, me or anyone will really have to worry about him becoming an option.
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Gallant is a bullshitter and a fraud. He says he wants a forecheck then implements an even weaker forecheck system than Quinn because he wants to keep the score down 5v5. Go into the season with GG still here and that locker room will be ugly. He got canned in the past the minute orgs realised what he is.
I get what you're logic is, but I don't think KK is that coach. Look at TB, they have kids come up and play their system and fit in like a glove. Who from Hartford has done that, and/or made the team? Even out of pre-season camp, DQ, GG picked guys who play "tenacious, forecheckers" like Hunt, Blackwell, Rooney, Leschyshyn etc... none of which came up from Hartford. All guys signed as FA from other organizations, and one waiver claim. No one from Hartford has stuck with the team long term, not even Brodz who you can argue should be in the lineup over Goodrow. I guess it really comes down is that to coach for not getting the most out of the players, or the players not being good enough. Either way until the TDL imo KK did nothing to improve with his coaching tactics. The only thing that saved his job was the work of Drury/Martin at the deadline. I think if you want to go with a new coach there are for more interesting options. I'd go with someone with no or little NHL experience like Brunette, Sturm, or Carberry and like you said get a vet to help them along the way. I do wish MSL was free cause I think he would be great with this team, but it is what it is. Maybe wait a year and see if MTL or Pitt makes a change and just get GG new assistant who can change on the fly.
McRanger92
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The future is only bleak if you believe it impossible for 21 year old's to improve over time. I don't blame fans for taking the glass half empty approach to this team after what just transpired. Hell, I am furious about it. But the fact is the team is still extremely young, and none of the players drafted during the rebuild have been put in roles to put up high point totals, with the exception being Miller, who was a top 4 D out of necessity from the get go.
I have been a strong proponent of leaning on the veterans, and supplementing them with deadline additions the past 2 years. All in all, we has some fun but it didnt work out, I am taking the L there. It's now time to try something new. The way the roster is constructed limits the changes they can make. It is what it is. Other teams young players succeed earlier because they are ingratiated into the core immediately. The Rangers have not done that, either by design or deference to their veterans. Laf/Chytil/Kakko, etc. deserve the chance to play every night in the top 6 and on the powerplay. Don't tell me they havent earned it. They earned it by sitting behind a core group of vets for 3 years who have proven to us they cant get it done on their own.
Drury and the Rangers need to put the homegrown players in positions to remove all doubt about what they are and can be. If they move on without ever trying it, then I'll say its bleak.
This is what ryan Strome said in his first camp.
“Even from the first game we had the other night, what [Gallant] expects and demands on the bench isn’t anything no one’s capable of. It’s keep pucks out of the middle, chip it in and chip it out, don’t beat yourselves and support the puck. Other than that, it’s kind of go out there and play.”
That is his entire system. And u see it on the ice. Chip, chip, smack puck around the boards, and then free for all.
Meanwhile teams like the Devils value having the puck and utilize the middle of the ice. They arent chipping it out, they make short passes and go forward together.
Gallant is a joke. But the Rangers will be a bigger joke if we keep this idiot on the bench next year for his inevitable mid season firing to shakeup our lackluster play.
“Even from the first game we had the other night, what [Gallant] expects and demands on the bench isn’t anything no one’s capable of. It’s keep pucks out of the middle, chip it in and chip it out, don’t beat yourselves and support the puck. Other than that, it’s kind of go out there and play.”
That is his entire system. And u see it on the ice. Chip, chip, smack puck around the boards, and then free for all.
Meanwhile teams like the Devils value having the puck and utilize the middle of the ice. They arent chipping it out, they make short passes and go forward together.
Gallant is a joke. But the Rangers will be a bigger joke if we keep this idiot on the bench next year for his inevitable mid season firing to shakeup our lackluster play.
100% agree. with this. For the life me I just don't understand why NYR have no issues with integrating homegrown defensemen throughout the years. Drafted, or traded for as a prospect NYR have had Staal, Girardi, Sauer, McD, Fox, Lindgren, Miller, Schneider all part of their core at some poin. All made their debut with the NYR, and all of their big FA signings for D have failed miserable (redden, Shatty, to a lesser extent Trouba), but for whatever reason NYR prospects that have become a part of the core since the Dubi/Cally days have been Kreider. That's it. Sure Buch for a time but to me he was shipped out to soon to be considered a core piece.
No, they can improve. No one is saying that.
Do we REALISTICALLY think that the kids can improve to the point where they are our version of a Hughes or MacKinnon or Thompson or Robertson?
If not, we have massive money tied into aging veterans and the youth that was supposed to augment those veterans and then take over as the faces of the franchise are more likely to remain complimentary pieces leaving us WITHOUT the offensive talent we need.
The problem isn’t whether the kids can improve. They can. They will. They may even have really solid careers. We don’t need 60 point players. I’m not saying 60 point players are bad but we NEEDED to FINALLY draft a kid who could be a 21 year old point per game player with a 100 point ceiling who we would have from 18-30 years old. We had two cracks at it in the draft. Since we got TWO guys who MAY be 60-65 point solid players, how is our future any different than our last 15 years? Laf and Kakko are basically different versions of Dubi and Callahan. Are we being gifted another lottery pick soon? If we never draft this player, we will forever be signing Panarin’s at age 27 and hoping for a different outcome.
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The other thought I have regarding Lafreniere and Kakko and their development is that they don't fit well together. Furthermore, the team generally doesn't have the right mix of players that complement each other.
Draisatl is probably in the 5th percentile or less when it comes to speed, but he happens to play on a line with the guy in the 99th percentile. McDavid flies through the neutral zone, which allows the line to get set up in the offensive zone and Draisatl can do his thing.
You could say it's the same story with Rantanen and MacKinnon.
Laf and Kakko are both slow. Their line relies on Chytil to carry the puck into the offensive zone, and if that doesn't work then they have a tough time. Dump and chase doesn't work too well because Laf and Kakko can't pressure the defense quickly enough.
Draisatl is probably in the 5th percentile or less when it comes to speed, but he happens to play on a line with the guy in the 99th percentile. McDavid flies through the neutral zone, which allows the line to get set up in the offensive zone and Draisatl can do his thing.
You could say it's the same story with Rantanen and MacKinnon.
Laf and Kakko are both slow. Their line relies on Chytil to carry the puck into the offensive zone, and if that doesn't work then they have a tough time. Dump and chase doesn't work too well because Laf and Kakko can't pressure the defense quickly enough.
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McRanger92
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My hope is this Drury/Gallant rift stems from the organization wanting the youth in bigger roles. The Kid line was bad in this series but at least they played with more energy than The Walking Dead veterans. Gallant didn't once break up the Kid line to spark the rest of the team until it was too late to even do anything. The Rangers gave the Kids legitimate PP time once all year and it was for a handful of games at best after the Tarasenko trade. Lighten the load on headcases like Mika/Panarin/Kreider and let Laf/Chytil/Kakko cook with more open ice and more time playing WITH the veterans. Because under Gallant the Rangers have been 2 different teams in 1, it's time to mesh them. Everyone will be better off for it.
McRanger92
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I absolutely think all 3 of the Kids can be point per game players when fully developed, especially Chytil (45 points in 74 games as a 3C with no PP time). Zibanejad didnt become a point per game player until he was 26 and changed teams once. Pavel Buchnevich never even cracked 50 as a Ranger and Kakko had 40 this year as a 22 year old (again with no PP time).
Lafreniere is at an inflection point in his career, not unlike where Chytil and Kakko were over the last 2. Next year is an enormous year for him but if you've noticed the trajectory here, both his peers started to show signs of legitimate growth the first year after their ELC. If Laf really commits this summer and is given a top 6/PP role without having to worry about a turnover getting him benched, 60+ points is very much on the table, with the arrow pointing up from there. It would be flat out stupid not to do that.
MrAlmost
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That's fair, but that's not really the point. Every coach wants a faster team that is more aggressive in the offensive zone, doesn't yield ice in the neutral zone and backchecks hard. Every fan wants the same thing. Yet, our fans call for the head of every single coach, sometimes before they have even coached a game, because they "have no tactics" or do not want to play the system of "where the game is headed". It must be that the fans don't even listen to what the coaches say, which funny enough, perfectly mirrors the group that is the real problem. The players.
At what point do Ranger's fans realize that either, A. they don't know shit or 2. it's not the coach, it's not the "system", it's the personnel?
I'm being a little over the top for comedic and dramatic effect. Scapegoating the coach every time has gotten this team precisely no where.
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McRanger92
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WojtekWolski86
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I get the need and idea of Fast. But cost and never staying healthy is why we let him go. We are already need to get rid of Goodrow and the noose on our cap points to minimum $ vets and kids needing to fill the bottom 6.
This team needs to figure out the coach situation ASAP and build the team off of that. The coach and GM need to be on the same page and that hasn't been the case.
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