Speculation: Roster Building Thread VI (2019/2020)

[Raspewtin]

Wait, didn't have 2 points in 3 games?

Didn't he actually have a point per game pace than Andersson? And more production than any center other than Andersson --- including Zibanejad, Strome, and every other candidate?

I feel like these are important aspects that are missing from these conversations.

It's not just that Chytil sucked. It's that Howden out-performed quite a few other players as well. Was he amazing no? But to imply he didn't make the team, based on the performances of some other players, leaves out a lot of details.

an argument based only on stats, tsk tsk.

watch the games sometime.

 

[Machinehead]

See and that's where we create these catch-22 for the guys we want to double down on.

Well it's not about the production. Well that sure takes a hell of a lot out of the evaluation.

Okay, it's about the improvements. So he went to the net and got into a high traffic area (something people wanted to see more of last year). But that doesn't count either.

Okay, here's a list of factors, ranging from safety net to how he played last year. So what did Andersson do last year? Where did Chytil go after December? What did Kravtsov do this preseason?

I mean if we're going to actually critique this players, and swear that there's no bias, then why is this thread lighting up and the others are still in blackout mode?

The answer's not hard.

Yes, there's bias against players that are worse than others. Always has been. Imagine f***ing that.

 

[Machinehead]

Im sorry but i dont think kakko looked "bad" because of strome. Kakko just looked like an 18yo kid trying to figure out how to play in the NHL.

He looked like a Hart candidate playing with Zibanejad.

He plays with scrubs and suddenly he's "just a kid" again.

 

[Edge]

an argument based only on stats, tsk tsk.

watch the games sometime.

I watched the game. I saw A LOT of shitty hockey. And a lot of it from people who were skating in the pros when Howden was getting his learners permit.

 

[Edge]

Yes, there's bias against players that are worse than others. Always has been. Imagine ****ing that.

Oh I can imagine it, from the usual suspects. Just like I can imagine the usual reaction when they get called on it.

 

[Machinehead]

Oh I can imagine it, from the usual suspects. Just like I can imagine the usual reaction when they get called on it.

And I can imagine milquetoast, safe "look at my logical galaxy brain" takes from the usual suspects.

 

[Ghost of jas]

This is a strawman.

I don't want to make the playoffs but I also don't want the most important prospect we've ever had playing with Ryan Strome.

Kakko looked terrible in preseason when he was with the other garbage we have instead of Zibanejad and immediately, a bunch of posters laced into Kakko over it. But I'm being negative.

People ALWAYS make too much out of the opening night lineup. This team remains a work in process. I don’t believe Kakko is going to be ruined playing next to Strome to start the season. If he is, then he isn’t the player every scouting report claimed he is. Yes, it would have been great if one of the young centers grabbed the opportunity to win the 2C spot. I’ll say it again if either of Strome or Namestnikov are still here next season, then there are problems. Of course, I remain convinced that the future 2C for this team is coming out of the 1st round of the upcoming draft. Nothing has dissuaded me from that opinion.

 

[Edge]

Im sorry but i dont think kakko looked "bad" because of strome. Kakko just looked like an 18yo kid trying to figure out how to play in the NHL.

I agree, and there are going to be quite a few instances of promising young players looking very much their age.

If I'm being perfectly honest, a lot of our kids did not make my heart flutter this preseason.

The one probable exception is Andersson. And I'm enjoying this because it's providing a rare reprieve from dissecting every single aspect of his development and fearing the worst.

 

[Edge]

And I can imagine milquetoast, safe "look at my logical galaxy brain" takes from the usual suspects.

LOL, like proceeding with logic and patience is actually a... bad thing?

 

[Ghost of jas]

I agree, and there are going to be quite a few instances of promising young players looking very much their age.

If I'm being perfectly honest, a lot of our kids did not make my heart flutter this preseason.

The one probable exception is Andersson. And I'm enjoying this because it's providing a rare reprieve from dissecting every single aspect of his development and fearing the worst.

To be honest, I’m pleased with what I saw from Andersson this pre-season. But, what I saw was that a smart player who can be a quality 3C on a winning team. I’m not seeing a 2C in the organization, and that goes for Chytil and Howden.

 

[Tawnos]

Howden is certainly not an established NHL player and he didn't really do enough in camp to make the team.

He's here because Chytil was worse and there's nobody else.

I completely disagree. In fact, it's worth repeating something I already said this morning in this thread. Performance is not the priority when it comes to making the decisions on these young players right now. This isn't some random theory. It's exactly what Sam and Joe were saying that the coaches were telling them (they said this during the broadcast on Saturday).

So no, he's not here because Chytil was worse and there's nobody else. He's here because the staff believes he has less to learn from an AHL stint than he does in the NHL. If they thought he had something to gain from AHL time, Nieves would be here and Howden would be in Hartford.

 

[Procrastinator]

I agree, and there are going to be quite a few instances of promising young players looking very much their age.

If I'm being perfectly honest, a lot of our kids did not make my heart flutter this preseason.

The one probable exception is Andersson. And I'm enjoying this because it's providing a rare reprieve from dissecting every single aspect of his development and fearing the worst.

yes. aside from anderson (who was a pleasant surprise), i thought the rest of the kids looked more or less like kids. they all showed moments of brilliance but overall showed they need to learn the nhl caliber of play.

 

[Hire Sather]

First liner clears waivers!

We're blessed.

 

[Edge]

To be honest, I’m pleased with what I saw from Andersson this pre-season. But, what I saw was that a smart player who can be a quality 3C on a winning team. I’m not seeing a 2C in the organization, and that goes for Chytil and Howden.

And the reality is that the odds of all of these kids becoming everything we hope from them is pretty slim.

While it's nice to imagine Chytil-Andersson-Howden all slotting down the middle of the lineup in 2025, it's probably not going to happen.

But whatever they end up becoming, or not becoming, it's waaaaaay too early to tell right now. Because judging by them at their best and their worst, right now, is going to give some very polarized results.

 

[Machinehead]

People ALWAYS make too much out of the opening night lineup. This team remains a work in process. I don’t believe Kakko is going to be ruined playing next to Strome to start the season. If he is, then he isn’t the player every scouting report claimed he is. Yes, it would have been great if one of the young centers grabbed the opportunity to win the 2C spot. I’ll say it again if either of Strome or Namestnikov are still here next season, then there are problems. Of course, I remain convinced that the future 2C for this team is coming out of the 1st round of the upcoming draft. Nothing has dissuaded me from that opinion.

I don't think he'll be ruined either but I don't want to see him criticized over it.

There's a tendency on here to blame good players so we can defend the scrubs that are causing the problems.

For all the talk about bias against players, all it takes is Kreider burping once for this place to burn down, you know that. Don't expect anything else for Kakko.

 

[Zibanejbread]

 

[Edge]

yes. aside from anderson (who was a pleasant surprise), i thought the rest of the kids looked more or less like kids. they all showed moments of brilliance but overall showed they need to learn the nhl caliber of play.

Frankly, that's what I saw --- kids who looked 18, 19, 20 and 21.

And those numbers are really important to remember. We're not talking about 22, 23 and 24 year olds. And in some cases, we're not talking about every one of those players being elite talents either. We're talking about guys who project, if all goes well, as support players. Maybe second liners, maybe third liners, etc.

So if they came out now, and looked like world beaters, they wouldn't be projecting as support players in the first place.

 

[Machinehead]

LOL, like proceeding with logic and patience is actually a... bad thing?

Giving nothing but middle of the road opinions so you're never wrong and then acting like you're smarter than everyone else is a bad thing.

You attack any opinion that isn't "the Rangers are an ice hockey team."

 

[TheDirtyH]

LOL, like proceeding with logic and patience is actually a... bad thing?

What about saying Howden played poorly this preseason and holding the opinion he should start the year in the AHL contradicts 'logic and patience'?

There's nothing in the statement that Howden has been and probably still is a bad NHLer that makes any claim to his potential and developing skill sets.

I'm sure some people feel Howden's prospects are dark, but in this case you're arguing two things at once that are not the same thing.

 

[Machinehead]

I completely disagree. In fact, it's worth repeating something I already said this morning in this thread. Performance is not the priority when it comes to making the decisions on these young players right now. This isn't some random theory. It's exactly what Sam and Joe were saying that the coaches were telling them (they said this during the broadcast on Saturday).

So no, he's not here because Chytil was worse and there's nobody else. He's here because the staff believes he has less to learn from an AHL stint than he does in the NHL. If they thought he had something to gain from AHL time, Nieves would be here and Howden would be in Hartford.

What has Howden done at this level to indicate the AHL is beneath him?

 

[Ghost of jas]

I don't think he'll be ruined either but I don't want to see him criticized over it.

There's a tendency on here to blame good players so we can defend the scrubs that are causing the problems.

For all the talk about bias against players, all it takes is Kreider burping once for this place to burn down, you know that. Don't expect anything else for Kakko.

And that’s going to happen regardless. I take it as white noise. You’ve been on GDT’s...hot takes are always on the menu.

 

[Tawnos]

What has Howden done at this level to indicate the AHL is beneath him?

Do you even read my posts or do you just scroll right over them unless I'm responding directly to you?

 

[Edge]

Giving nothing but middle of the road opinions so you're never wrong and then acting like you're smarter than everyone else is a bad thing.

You attack any opinion that isn't "the Rangers are an ice hockey team."

I push back on hot takes and stupid comments. Some people are just more prone to making them.

On the flip side of that, I can debate an actual issue and be perfectly fine having different opinions.

For example, I can debate someone on the Panarin or Trouba issues, dedicate pages upon pages to it, and be perfectly okay disagreeing with that person. Likewise, I can debate someone and still see the logic in their perspective.

I don't think patience for 20 year old players is a middle of the road opinion; it's common sense.

Do I think I'm smarter than everyone? Not at all. But I do think I'm in the group of people who, more often than not, aren't talking out of their ass either.

In my experience, it's usually the people who have a tendency to talk our of their ass who chafe the most when they're called on it. Everyone knows who they are. Some choose to ignore it. Some just rolls their eyes. But everyone has a pretty good idea of who they are --- except the actual people in question.

So yeah, when people comment about players they aren't old enough to remember, or players they've never worked with, or conveniently leave out a huge amount of context, I'm gonna call it out.

 

[Machinehead]

Do you even read my posts or do you just scroll right over them unless I'm responding directly to you?

Don't know what post you're referring to.

No, I often don't sit there and read the thread cover to cover like it's Moby Dick.

 

[Edge]

What about saying Howden played poorly this preseason and holding the opinion he should start the year in the AHL contradicts 'logic and patience'?

There's nothing in the statement that Howden has been and probably still is a bad NHLer that makes any claim to his potential and developing skill sets.

I'm sure some people feel Howden's prospects are dark, but in this case you're arguing two things at once that are not the same thing.

For starters, I don't particuarly think Howden played poorly.

I think he had good moments and bad moments. I think he more bad moments then some players, but not nearly as many as others --- especially some of his peers.

Within the context of his performance, compared to said peers, I don't think he did amazing, but I don't think he did worse than player who aren't here right now. I think he was fairly middle of the road, maybe bottom middle.

When I looked at the forwards who should've been sent to the AHL, there were names ahead of him. That doesn't mean he was at the top of the keep list, but it doesn't mean he was at the bottom either.

But beyond what I saw, I can also comment on what I'm seeing. And what I'm seeing is that we aren't spending a ton of time focusing on a lot of players who didn't perform better than Howden, or questioning where their game was this preseason. So to me, that signifies that we aren't looking at all players the same way.

With Howden, I feel like certain comments read as if the person making them has already arrived at the conclusion and is going back to find aspect to support their conclusion. As opposed to observing aspects and then arriving at a conclusion based on those elements.