Roster Building Thread V (2022-23): Cheese and WINE

[UAGoalieGuy]

I know they are still up in thr series, but if the Leafs lose in round 1 or 2 the Leafs could be looking to shake things up.

May be a deal around Panarin for one of their big 3

 

[archanfelnsx]

This coach will never give Jones a chance unfortunately.

Well there is one obvious way to fix that.

 

[RosensRug]

Sadly I don't think that is going to happen. Sullivan is a great coach, he would be such an improvement on Gallant.

What we really need is Coach Q but he's still banned and who knows what the temperature is around his status and whether or not the Rangers would want to go down that road. He's one of the best coaches alive though so it would be great if somehow he could come here.

I cannot imagine a scenario where Coach Q gets another job in the NHL. Especially after all the political backlash the league dealt with this season over the pride jerseys.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

The men in Hartford that play with jump and jam and never take a shift off are:

Blidh
Jones
Cuylle
Trivigno
Henriksson
Pajunieni
Hajek
Gettinger
Rempe

Whether any have the skills to compete and make a difference at the NHL playoff level is uncertain.

 

[Rangeri]

They are not going to trade all the players. Just call taxi for Gallant.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I don't totally agree with the idea the Rangers didn't fully rebuild. We missed the playoffs for 4 straight years, had an enormous amount of first round picks and acquired a lot of young talent to grow into the new core. The timeline accelerated a bit with Panarin signing but that doesn't mean they didn't rebuild, they did - only a handful of players remained from the old core.

The real problem is that we were extremely unlucky with our drafting in the first round. We won TWO lotteries and picked 1st OA and 2nd OA in consecutive drafts. That happening is usually the lynchpin for a rebuild and sets an organization up for success. We picked the consensus player in both drafts, the player that every single GM in the league would've picked in those places so they weren't bad picks. We just got super unlucky that our picks came at this time. Look at the 1st and 2nd overall players from the last few years:

1st OA:

2013 - MacKinnon
2014 - Ekblad
2015 - McDavid
2016 - Matthews
2017 - Hischier
2018 - Dahlin
2019 - Hughes
2020 - Lafreniere
2021 - Power


2nd OA

2013 - Barkov
2014 - Reinhart
2015 - Eichel
2016 - Laine
2017 - Patrick
2018 - Svechnikov
2019 - Kakko
2020 - Byfield
2021 - Beniers

If you rank all of these player, who do Kakko and Lafreniere finish ahead of? Byfield and Patrick?

Literally every single 1st overall before Lafreniere since 2013 is a star player (I'm not a huge Ekblad guy but he's still a first pair defenseman) with most of them being franchise defining players. You could say the same for half of the players at 2nd overall.

We're the Rangers. Even when we have good luck, it's shit.

 

[B17 Apricots]

If there was some sort of scenario where Panarin would waive... his buddy Malkin is in Pittsburgh. Penguins have 20 million in cap space this off-season. No one significant to retain this summer. Guentzel will only have 1 year left on his contract. Hell, with an extension in place I'd do the trade 1 for 1 just for the cap savings alone. If I'm being honest, if they offered Pierre-Olivier or Ty Smith and a bunch of picks I'd take the deal knowing full well I can turn around and use the cap space to re-sign Kane and Tarasenko for cheap. Kane was a 90 point player last year, let him get his surgery. Tarasenko was over a point per game last year. I'd rather have both of them locked in cheap over AP.

Carolina has +23 million in cap space this off-season. Again, no one significant to retain this summer. I don't know if you're prying any of their young forwards from them but Teräväinen will only have 1 year left on his deal. They have a plethora of picks and prospects.

There's plenty of teams that might be a suitor that'd have to send money back but also a few that could be realistic that don't have to move any money at all. But really the return is kind of irrelevant, you'd certainly return some good value but more importantly you free up tons of cap space to deepen the roster. Obviously it should go without saying that it comes back to whether AP is willing to waive or not...

 

[EdJovanovski]

I don't totally agree with the idea the Rangers didn't fully rebuild. We missed the playoffs for 4 straight years, had an enormous amount of first round picks and acquired a lot of young talent to grow into the new core. The timeline accelerated a bit with Panarin signing but that doesn't mean they didn't rebuild, they did - only a handful of players remained from the old core.

The real problem is that we were extremely unlucky with our drafting in the first round. We won TWO lotteries and picked 1st OA and 2nd OA in consecutive drafts. That happening is usually the lynchpin for a rebuild and sets an organization up for success. We picked the consensus player in both drafts, the player that every single GM in the league would've picked in those places so they weren't bad picks. We just got super unlucky that our picks came at this time. Look at the 1st and 2nd overall players from the last few years:

1st OA:

2013 - MacKinnon
2014 - Ekblad
2015 - McDavid
2016 - Matthews
2017 - Hischier
2018 - Dahlin
2019 - Hughes
2020 - Lafreniere
2021 - Power


2nd OA

2013 - Barkov
2014 - Reinhart
2015 - Eichel
2016 - Laine
2017 - Patrick
2018 - Svechnikov
2019 - Kakko
2020 - Byfield
2021 - Beniers

If you rank all of these player, who do Kakko and Lafreniere finish ahead of? Byfield and Patrick?

Literally every single 1st overall before Lafreniere since 2013 is a star player (I'm not a huge Ekblad guy but he's still a first pair defenseman) with most of them being franchise defining players. You could say the same for half of the players at 2nd overall.

We're the Rangers. Even when we have good luck, it's shit.

If you replace our 1st & 2nd picks with pretty much any other 1st & 2nd picks we’d be winning this series

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I don't totally agree with the idea the Rangers didn't fully rebuild. We missed the playoffs for 4 straight years, had an enormous amount of first round picks and acquired a lot of young talent to grow into the new core. The timeline accelerated a bit with Panarin signing but that doesn't mean they didn't rebuild, they did - only a handful of players remained from the old core.

The real problem is that we were extremely unlucky with our drafting in the first round. We won TWO lotteries and picked 1st OA and 2nd OA in consecutive drafts. That happening is usually the lynchpin for a rebuild and sets an organization up for success. We picked the consensus player in both drafts, the player that every single GM in the league would've picked in those places so they weren't bad picks. We just got super unlucky that our picks came at this time. Look at the 1st and 2nd overall players from the last few years:

1st OA:

2013 - MacKinnon
2014 - Ekblad
2015 - McDavid
2016 - Matthews
2017 - Hischier
2018 - Dahlin
2019 - Hughes
2020 - Lafreniere
2021 - Power


2nd OA

2013 - Barkov
2014 - Reinhart
2015 - Eichel
2016 - Laine
2017 - Patrick
2018 - Svechnikov
2019 - Kakko
2020 - Byfield
2021 - Beniers

If you rank all of these player, who do Kakko and Lafreniere finish ahead of? Byfield and Patrick?

Literally every single 1st overall before Lafreniere since 2013 is a star player (I'm not a huge Ekblad guy but he's still a first pair defenseman) with most of them being franchise defining players. You could say the same for half of the players at 2nd overall.

We're the Rangers. Even when we have good luck, it's shit.

I think you're really underestimating:

1. How long and painful most successful rebuilds are. The Hawks and Devils didn't say f it, lets go all in on the trade and UFA market because they drafted Tuomo Ruutu, Cam Barker, Jack Skille, Pavel Zacha, and Michael McLeod. Whether intentionally or unintentionally they kept sucking until they got multiple franchise forwards. You can't shortcut that. It is overwhelmingly the way to win a Cup in the NHL today.

2. How much benefit there is to fully "clearing the decks" to allow your top prospects to keep their confidence trajectory going, being given key roles with no one looking over their shoulder every time they screw up. Kakko was almost immediately taken off of PP1 for Colin Blackwell. Colin Blackwell. Can't begin to oversell how short sighted and dumb that was. And there is no way to know what kind of impact shit like that built up over the years has had.

The Rangers 100% did not fully rebuild. They didn't. They sold some pieces and accumulated assets. They got draft lottery luck. But they did not commit to a complete rebuild.

 

[Synergy27]

I think you're really underestimating:

1. How long and painful most successful rebuilds are. The Hawks and Devils didn't say f it, lets go all in on the trade and UFA market because they drafted Tuomo Ruutu, Cam Barker, Jack Skille, Pavel Zacha, and Michael McLeod. Whether intentionally or unintentionally they kept sucking until they got multiple franchise forwards. You can't shortcut that. It is overwhelmingly the way to win a Cup in the NHL today.

2. How much benefit there is to fully "clearing the decks" to allow your top prospects to keep their confidence trajectory going, being given key roles with no one looking over their shoulder every time they screw up. Kakko was almost immediately taken off of PP1 for Colin Blackwell. Colin Blackwell. Can't begin to oversell how short sighted and dumb that was. And there is no way to know what kind of impact shit like that built up over the years has had.

The Rangers 100% did not fully rebuild. They didn't. They sold some pieces and accumulated assets. They got draft lottery luck. But they did not commit to a complete rebuild.

I understand what you are saying here. I am as disappointed, if not more disappointed, in Kakko and Laf as anyone. Hell, I was ringing the concern bell years ago, but was told to be patient.

The thing is, we DO have multiple franchise forwards. Mika and Panarin are absolutely “franchise” forwards. Kreider scored 50 goals last year.

The problem isn’t that Hughes and Hischier are better than Laf and Kakko. The problem is that they are better than Mika and Panarin.

If Laf and Kakko were who they were supposed to be, this team would he cakewalking through the league with its insane depth, but we aren’t necessarily losing because they haven’t developed as planned. We are losing because our franchise players aren’t as good as the other team’s.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

I not sure who suggested it first but I agree that Jones should start game 6.
The team needs another d-man who can carry/get the puck out of our zone.

 

[surlysailor]

Instead of trading Panarin for Tkachuk, they should have been trying to trade Trouba for Rasmus Andersson. Not that either would have happened but it's the principle of the matter. That would have made a bigger difference than the other suggestion.

Or pick up Tolvanen on waivers>Les, trade for Valimaki from the Flames for anything before they put him on waivers. Drury had better options all year but instead went for size/grit/character or whatever you want to call over skill (except for Kane who fell into his lap)

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

I think you're really underestimating:

1. How long and painful most successful rebuilds are. The Hawks and Devils didn't say f it, lets go all in on the trade and UFA market because they drafted Tuomo Ruutu, Cam Barker, Jack Skille, Pavel Zacha, and Michael McLeod. Whether intentionally or unintentionally they kept sucking until they got multiple franchise forwards. You can't shortcut that. It is overwhelmingly the way to win a Cup in the NHL today.

2. How much benefit there is to fully "clearing the decks" to allow your top prospects to keep their confidence trajectory going, being given key roles with no one looking over their shoulder every time they screw up. Kakko was almost immediately taken off of PP1 for Colin Blackwell. Colin Blackwell. Can't begin to oversell how short sighted and dumb that was. And there is no way to know what kind of impact shit like that built up over the years has had.

The Rangers 100% did not fully rebuild. They didn't. They sold some pieces and accumulated assets. They got draft lottery luck. But they did not commit to a complete rebuild.

A lot of Devils fans would get upset that players would leave the team and sign elsewhere and that NJ/Newark wasn't a destination for free agents.

That has been proven, because it hasnt been up until recently - and that is something that has worked in their favor. They've been saved in part by not having the opportunities to sign overpriced long term deals on the UFA market. It allowed them to truly suck and bottom out, took their medicine and then made smart moves and draft choices.

Once those multiple high draft choices panned out (Luck or scouting? Little bit of both imo) then they began filling in the holes through the FA market with deals for Hamilton (which was huge for them) & Palat and then making the trade for Meier at the deadline.

Part of the issue with the Rangers is the country club culture they've built and the free-agency destination they've become for decades. There is no place like NYC, original 6, etc. But the stardom stuff also works against you if you arent careful. Panarin is becoming a perfect example of that

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I understand what you are saying here. I am as disappointed, if not more disappointed, in Kakko and Laf as anyone. Hell, I was ringing the concern bell years ago, but was told to be patient.

The thing is, we DO have multiple franchise forwards. Mika and Panarin are absolutely “franchise” forwards. Kreider scored 50 goals last year.

The problem isn’t that Hughes and Hischier are better than Laf and Kakko. The problem is that they are better than Mika and Panarin.

If Laf and Kakko were who they were supposed to be, this team would he cakewalking through the league with its insane depth, but we aren’t necessarily losing because they haven’t developed as planned. We are losing because our franchise players aren’t as good as the other team’s.

Yea I mean the Rangers franchise forwards were not acquired through the rebuild. That's my point. Agreed on them negatively impacting this series. But you can't tell me they rebuilt when Zibanejad and Kreider were the core players before it started and are still the core players now. Every developmental egg has gone into their baskets over the last 6 years.

Telling me there is no chance that negatively impacted Lafreniere/Kakko at all relative to other top picks, and that the Rangers got unlucking with unanimous consensus 1OA and 2OA picks just is too improbable when the easier answer when the easiest explanation is the NYR contributed in f***ing up their development.

 

[surlysailor]

I know they are still up in thr series, but if the Leafs lose in round 1 or 2 the Leafs could be looking to shake things up.

May be a deal around Panarin for one of their big 3

Would love that, but if Panarin can't handle NY for the playoffs do you think he'd be willing to subject himself to playing in Toronto in the playoffs? Sure he won't be the goto guy but he got rid a Nokia phone because of criticism

 

[DanielBrassard]

Or pick up Tolvanen on waivers>Les, trade for Valimaki from the Flames for anything before they put him on waivers. Drury had better options all year but instead went for size/grit/character or whatever you want to call over skill (except for Kane who fell into his lap)

The Rangers will always prioritize size over skill unless the player they are acquiring is an established player. That's just how it is.

 

[Synergy27]

Yea I mean the Rangers franchise forwards were not acquired through the rebuild. That's my point. Agreed on them negatively impacting this series. But you can't tell me they rebuilt when Zibanejad and Kreider were the core players before it started and are still the core players now. Every developmental egg has gone into their baskets over the last 6 years.

Telling me there is no chance that negatively impacted Lafreniere/Kakko at all relative to other top picks, and that the Rangers got unlucking with unanimous consensus 1OA and 2OA picks just is too improbable when the easier answer when the easiest explanation is the NYR contributed in f***ing up their development.

I think the only place where I disagree is that you 100% have to draft your franchise players. It’s the safest, most probable route because typically franchise players aren’t available in trades. We got incredibly lucky with the Zib and Fox trades.

The idea that we should have moved on from established, still young, franchise forwards so that we could rely on Laf and Kakko was always questionable to me. They were never clearly going to be MUCH better than the guys we already had at the top of the roster. You entertain that thought when you draft McDavid.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

A lot of Devils fans would get upset that players would leave the team and sign elsewhere and that NJ/Newark wasn't a destination for free agents.

That has been proven, because it hasnt been up until recently - and that is something that has worked in their favor. They've been saved in part by not having the opportunities to sign overpriced long term deal on the UFA market. They sucked, took their medicine and then made smart moves and draft choices.

Once those draft choices panned out (Luck or scouting? Little bit of both imo) then they began filling in the holes through the FA market with deals for Hamilton & Palat and then making the trade for Meier at the deadline.

Part of the issue with the Rangers is the country club culture they've built and the free-agency destination they've become for decades. There is no place like NYC, original 6, etc. But the stardom stuff also works against you if you arent careful. Panarin is becoming a perfect example of that

Completely agreed. The bottom line is the culture of how the NYR are run clearly does not result in building elite Cup contenders. It results in occassional playoff runs. And it has gone on too long to be accidental, it is their business model. Occasional playoff runs plus star/headline chasing plus broccoli haired celebs on the jumbotron sells $500 tickets. To me it is that simple. Just pretty dark when those pieces come together.

I think the only place where I disagree is that you 100% have to draft your franchise players. It’s the safest, most probable route because typically franchise players aren’t available in trades. We got incredibly lucky with the Zib and Fox trades.

The idea that we should have moved on from established, still young, franchise forwards so that we could rely on Laf and Kakko was always questionable to me. They were never clearly going to be MUCH better than the guys we already had at the top of the roster. You entertain that thought when you draft McDavid.

I don't think you absolutely HAVE to draft your franchise players but it is a massive advantage. It gives you the longest window to win a Cup. Winning a Cup is obviously extremely hard even with great players. It involves injury, officiating, and puck luck. When you draft stars it gives you the longest possible window for the stars to align. Plus some financial benefit early on vs the cap, though that is decreasing due to large 2nd contracts.

The NYR way results in constantly juggling 1-2 year "maybe" windows where they are hoping the last UFA they signed hasn't dropped off precipitously (which eventually happens 100% of the time) and the buyout money from past big $ mistakes isn't affecting the on ice product that much and they hit on a few contributions from draft picks.

 

[duhmetreE]

The Rangers will always prioritize size over skill unless the player they are acquiring is an established player. That's just how it is.

Sather book of team building 101

I just want a coach that instills structure and protocols. People hear structure and think Trotz... that's not the only implementation of structure.

Boston is an extremely well oiled and structured team.
Jersey has structure in their attack. Each player understands where to be on the ice because the system asks for it.

We are severely under coached. There's a reason people have been saying it all season.

We can still win this series if the 'stars align'.... pun intended.

 

[haohmaru]

This will surely fix everything.

 

[duhmetreE]

This will surely fix everything.

Zibs has sucked as soon as he was reunited with Kreider. 5v5.

I do not understand how they don't see it.

At least he dropped Panarin. Kids will force feed him.

I guess it's better than doing nothing..... but I thought Gallant 'liked what he saw'....

 

[Rangers in 7]

Zibs has sucked as soon as he was reunited with Kreider. 5v5.

I do not understand how they don't see it.

At least he dropped Panarin. Kids will force feed him.

I guess it's better than doing nothing..... but I thought Gallant 'liked what he saw'....

i mean i dont HATE the lines

 

[duhmetreE]

If the season ends tomorrow, I look to move Trouba and Panarin. see if they'd waive. Useless and expensive in the playoffs.

Unless Trouba is playing on one leg, he has slowed down A LOT. It's scary to see, he's a guy that could be out of the NHL after this contract. He's that slow.

I want players that want the puck and actually produce in the clutch.

 

[NYR Viper]

If the season ends tomorrow, I look to move Trouba and Panarin. see if they'd waive. Useless and expensive in the playoffs.

Unless Trouba is playing on one leg, he has slowed down A LOT. It's scary to see, he's a guy that could be out of the NHL after this contract. He's that slow.

I want players that want the puck and actually produce in the clutch.

Duchene + 2nd '23 + 2nd '24 for Panarin

Zadina + 1st for Trouba

Move on

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

We’re too committed to “blow it up” that’s not happening. We will though trade Panarin, Goodrow, and maybe one other and get some yes I’m gonna say it - TRUCULENCE