Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXVII

[Waivers]

Even though I am all for trading Kreider, I am also 100% for grabbing Panarin too.

 

[SA16]

Forcing them to commit.

Seems like just a waste of time to me since those deals will just be matched right away. There's no way Marner signs for 10M but I could see Point doing it since it might be more than TB would offer given how much they pay Stamkos/Kucherov and the state tax thing but they're still just going to match and can clear space by getting rid of guys like Miller/Johnson/Killorn/Callahan if need be.

 

[eco's bones]

Ottawa by the way is going to be looking for ways to get to the cap floor in 19-20. They have the space for big contracts but whether they can find top notch free agents willing to sign is questionable. What may end up happening is they take on contracts like Reimer's or Kulikov's etc.--guys making pretty good money that other teams are trying to get rid of. It wouldn't be smart to be in their position two years from now--learn from others mistakes and don't put yourself in the same place.

Deliberately exceeding the cap is considered circumvention. Deliberately circumventing the cap floor is considered circumvention as well. There are articles in the CBA that pertain to this. It's in the interest of the NHLPA that teams don't undermine players salaries so I would expect no help from them for teams having issues getting to the cap floor. There are a wide array of penalties that the NHL can hit a team with for non-compliance. They include forfeiture of games--forfeiture of draft picks--suspensions of team agents who are culpable in the non-compliance and other penalties.

 

[Cag29]

I would offer sheet Marner and Point for 10m flat, each. Force them to either match or accept the compensation of 2 firsts, 1 second and 1 third

After we pick Kakko.

 

[eco's bones]

Even though I am all for trading Kreider, I am also 100% for grabbing Panarin too.

If we're trading Kreider I am absolutely all in on getting Panarin. It's bidding war time then.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

After we pick Kakko.

Offer sheets are after the draft anyway

 

[Fireonk]

Under 30 guys and assets who are about equivalent to a late 1st round pick or better in value (no particular order):
Kaapo/Hughes
Zibby
Kreider
Kravtsov
Andersson
Chytil
Miller
Lundkvist
Buchnevich
Skjei
Deangelo
Georgiev
Shestorkin
Howden
Lemieux
Winnipeg 1st this year
Maybe Dallas and Tampa 1sts this year
Our 1st next year and maybe Dallas's first next year
Maybe Strome?

That doesn't include some of our other interesting young guys like Hajek, Rykov, Lindgren, etc.

This is a crazy level of depth to work from and we still have some depth guys who are legitimate NHLers in Fast, Vesey, Names, and the other D.

Literally no room to fit everyone so some tough choices are going to be made to determine who the Rangers really value as the core. Then whomever isn't part of it you have to find a team looking for quantity over quality and overpay a bit in the trade to get it. I am willing to lose a trade from a strict value perspective if it gets us that one other true high end piece to build with.

 

[egelband]

If we're trading Kreider I am absolutely all in on getting Panarin. It's bidding war time then.

I hope the Rangers don't get into any bidding wars. If Panarin wants to come to the Rangers and takes an appropriate deal, cool. Anyhow I don't see Gorton getting into a bidding war at this point.

 

[RGY]

I do not like the idea of offer sheets. Especially when we have so many young kids in our system. If even just half of our 1st and 2nd round picks make it and are impact players, the same will happen to us. Those teams and others will be chomping at the bit to railroad us back.

 

[Fugazy]

I hope the Rangers don't get into any bidding wars. If Panarin wants to come to the Rangers and takes an appropriate deal, cool. Anyhow I don't see Gorton getting into a bugging war at this point.

I’m very confident Gorton and the staff wouldn’t get involved with that. They’ll have a number in mind and present it. Then it’s up to Panarin.

 

[RGY]

I’m very confident Gorton and the staff wouldn’t get involved with that. They’ll have a number in mind and present it. Then it’s up to Panarin.

I agree. I think the Rangers have a max upper limit they are willing to go to. From there it will come down to if Panarin wants to spend the rest of his career in Florida or NY. Florida will be able to offer money with no state income tax. Florida is currently* in a better position than the Rangers, however, the minute they draft Kakko and add Panarin himself things start to change soon.

Ultimately it will come down to preference.

 

[True Blue]

If we're trading Kreider I am absolutely all in on getting Panarin. It's bidding war time then.

Why? Again, the Rangers are not going to compete next year. MAYBE the rising starts in 2020, but still not true competitors. Why buy out two years of his prime?

 

[Ghost of jas]

Why? Again, the Rangers are not going to compete next year. MAYBE the rising starts in 2020, but still not true competitors. Why buy out two years of his prime?

I’m becoming more and more against signing him the farther along we go. I want another top ten pick this year to go with Kakko, followed by one more next year. This team is still so far from being complete.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I was pro Panarin but I'm now of the opinion that we only sign him if we are moving on from Kreider. The difference between the 2 players will be roughly 4-5 million. I'm still not sure we are the leader in his eyes so maybe we would have to overpay, if that's the case just pass on him.

 

[True Blue]

I’m becoming more and more against signing him the farther along we go. I want another top ten pick this year to go with Kakko, followed by one more next year. This team is still so far from being complete.

Yeah, I find myself digging in even more about not signing him.

For various reasons, I have become more resigned that Kreider possibly being moved. I will say I am still on the side of I would rather keep him, but I can see a scenario where Gorton does not even wait to negotiate and makes the deal. That aside, I think Gorton has a# in his head for him. Anyway, I am all for trying to get another early pick this year and then have the possibility of top-5 in next year's loaded draft as well. That would make the start of the 2020 season one of the more exciting ones that we as Rangers fans have had for a very, very long time.

 

[RangerBoy]

At the Rangers town hall last October, Sather said the long term 8 & 9 year contracts were crazy. He said it’s too long. Too many things can go wrong. Is a 7 year contract crazy too? 7 years at $11M is crazy.

Sather is stepping down as team president and will remain as an adviser/alternate BOG.

Is Gorton giving out that type of contract? That contract has more downside than upside.

Panarin would be a fool to take less money and term to play in New York over Florida. His old coach Joel Quenneville has say in personnel decisions in Florida. Vinnie Viola is spending to the cap. Sasha Barkov.

Shattenkirk apparently turned down better offers to play for the Rangers. He has very limited trade protection right now. He was better off taking the security of a longer term contract than taking the Rangers four year contract. These teams will dump the player at the first opportunity they get when the player is not performing well. He took 3 years less in term.

Gorton said the Rangers had a few players who overachieved their expectations like Zibanejad and Georgiev but they had others who were disappointments. He didn’t mention names but Shattenkirk is on that list.

The Rangers can dump Shattenkirk at any time. They find a taker. Retain half the money. Trade him for another bad contract. What did Shattenkirk accomplish in that scenario? Nothing. He played for the Rangers but cost himself and his family a lot of money. Is Kevin completing his contract as a Ranger?

Shattenkirk said he took the Rangers 4 year contract thinking he will sign a 3 year contract extension at the end of the current contract. Good luck.

 

[GAGLine]

Ottawa by the way is going to be looking for ways to get to the cap floor in 19-20. They have the space for big contracts but whether they can find top notch free agents willing to sign is questionable. What may end up happening is they take on contracts like Reimer's or Kulikov's etc.--guys making pretty good money that other teams are trying to get rid of. It wouldn't be smart to be in their position two years from now--learn from others mistakes and don't put yourself in the same place.

Deliberately exceeding the cap is considered circumvention. Deliberately circumventing the cap floor is considered circumvention as well. There are articles in the CBA that pertain to this. It's in the interest of the NHLPA that teams don't undermine players salaries so I would expect no help from them for teams having issues getting to the cap floor. There are a wide array of penalties that the NHL can hit a team with for non-compliance. They include forfeiture of games--forfeiture of draft picks--suspensions of team agents who are culpable in the non-compliance and other penalties.

I seriously doubt reaching the floor in 2021-22 will be an issue for the Rangers, with or without Panarin. Zib and Skjei aren't going to be the only players making significant money. There will be free agents brought in between now and then. They may not be here for a long time or get paid 10+ mil per year, but they will no doubt have enough of a cap hit to get us over the hump. Gorton isn't stupid. He isn't going to have a roster full of ELCs and bridge contracts.

Let's see where we are at by the end of this summer.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Getting 2OA and presumably Kakko has changed my thinking on Kreiders longevity here. IMO we’ll need either one of him or Panarin to move in the right direction, would rather a more elite player like Panarin. Use Kriders value to help at D, like a Trouba or someone along those lines.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

I seriously doubt reaching the floor in 2021-22 will be an issue for the Rangers, with or without Panarin. Zib and Skjei aren't going to be the only players making significant money. There will be free agents brought in between now and then. They may not be here for a long time or get paid 10+ mil per year, but they will no doubt have enough of a cap hit to get us over the hump. Gorton isn't stupid. He isn't going to have a roster full of ELCs and bridge contracts.

Let's see where we are at by the end of this summer.

Yeah you gotta try pretty hard not to hit the floor, there always the Lucic nuclear option

 

[eco's bones]

Why? Again, the Rangers are not going to compete next year. MAYBE the rising startsI t in 2020, but still not true competitors. Why buy out two years of his prime?

Because....that's why.

....and anyway the Rangers I think are planning on their team being better next year. They are going to expect more out of Chytil and Howden for instance. More out of DeAngelo and Buchnevich and if Henrik can't hold it together Georgiev is going to play more and then there is Shestyorkin. In his exit interview Quinn says a lot about fixing the defense so as to not to lose so many one goal games (what kind of talk is that for a team that wants to stink up the joint?) and I suspect strongly that that is going to be a focus too. I don't expect we're going to lose as many of them either. A lot of these guys aren't going to be wide eyed rookies anymore or young players trying to prove they belong and Quinn will not be a rookie coach next year looking at players he hasn't seen or coached before. He has a better idea of their capabilities and how they fit within the structure he wants to build and the expectations for them are going to be higher and there's not nearly going to be much of the feeling out process anymore.

So maybe we don't make the playoffs next year anyhow but I don't expect our season is going to be toast by mid-February.

 

[Beacon]

I don't think the Rangers have any intention of being bad for a few years though. And they were a competitive team in most games this year. Top of the league as far as one goal games and top of the league in giving up empty net goals which are goals you give up towards the end of one goal games. I don't think Quinn and his staff have any other intentions than to push this team into the playoffs next year and whether that happens or not I expect some improvement.

The other thing again and I brought this up the other day--teams are required to hit the cap floor. We're probably going to be okay this coming year and the next after but at the end of 20-21 all of Lundqvist, Shattenkirk, Staal and Smith come off the books and that's over $25 mil and that's a massive amount of money to come off the books at one time--keeping in mind the cap rising is not the friend of rebuilding teams--so yeah we're probably going back into free agency if not this year then next because doing all of that in the summer of 2021 will put the team in a marketplace that exists or doesn't--or we can't really project what will be available at that point in time but we will still be required to hit the cap floor. It will be either that or we will have to trade some of these young prospects for guys with contracts who will put us at the floor. Unless of course practically all of those entering their second contracts pan out. I don't expect that to happen. The thing is we are in the middle of the cycle--and at the end of the cycle if your team has divested itself of all its large contracts it will be time to get good again some way--some how.

Now some people's solutions might be to lock up Buchnevich and DeAngelo with $6 mil per year contracts this summer and to lock up Chytil, Andersson and Howden as soon as their ELC 's expire. What do you think of that? Better idea than to kick Panarin's tires?

Hitting the floor is not a problem. Eat some salary for a pick or extend a guy long term instead of a bridge (so instead of 2 years at $3 and 4 years at $6 once he's UFA, you sign him to 6 years at $5 or even $4.5, which helps you when the team gets better and has more cap problems).

 

[Matt4776]

Because....that's why.

....and anyway the Rangers I think are planning on their team being better next year. They are going to expect more out of Chytil and Howden for instance. More out of DeAngelo and Buchnevich and if Henrik can't hold it together Georgiev is going to play more and then there is Shestyorkin. In his exit interview Quinn says a lot about fixing the defense so as to not to lose so many one goal games (what kind of talk is that for a team that wants to stink up the joint?) and I suspect strongly that that is going to be a focus too. I don't expect we're going to lose as many of them either. A lot of these guys aren't going to be wide eyed rookies anymore or young players trying to prove they belong and Quinn will not be a rookie coach next year looking at players he hasn't seen or coached before. He has a better idea of their capabilities and how they fit within the structure he wants to build and the expectations for them are going to be higher and there's not nearly going to be much of the feeling out process anymore.

So maybe we don't make the playoffs next year anyhow but I don't expect our season is going to be toast by mid-February.

??

Do you expect the head coach of a hockey team to say that he not going to try to improve his team? To say that his team that had the least amount of ROW in the league doesn't need fixing?

 

[eco's bones]

??

Do you expect the head coach of a hockey team to say that he not going to try to improve his team? To say that his team that had the least amount of ROW in the league doesn't need fixing?

Do you expect young players not to improve?

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

I can’t help but think there’s a deal with Winnipeg for Trouba. I would do Kreider and Shatty (with +/- 1.6 retention) plus a pick/prospect. They need RD, Shatty can play better on a better team and serves as a bridge to their prospects. They could also use a good F since they have 4 UFAs coming to term and only Vesalainen coming up. Kreider could beef up their 2nd line.

Kreider Little Ehlers/Wheeler

RD Big Buff / Shatty / Morrow

 

[Matt4776]

Do you expect young players not to improve?

Sure I do. Do I think players still below legal drinking age will improve enough to off-set the losses of Zuccarello and Hayes (for sure), possibly Kreider, and another year of aging for Staal, Shattenkirk, Hank.etc? I don't.

EDIT: And to be clear, my post wasn't directed at your entire post. Though I disagree with you, I wasn't questioning your belief that the team will be better. Just questioning your reasoning that because Quinn said "we're looking to improve our defense so we wont lose one goal games" that means we're not a team that "wants to stink up to the joint."

No team goes into the year looking to "stink up the joint."