Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXV

[haohmaru]

Hayes high as a ranger is 49 points. Why are we calling him a 50 point player? He’s never done that.

Generally, a "50 point" or "60 point" or whatever point refers to how many points a player has gotten over a season, not selectively with one team. Hayes has 50+ points this year in a single season.

 

[emodwarf]

Hayes high as a ranger is 49 points. Why are we calling him a 50 point player? He’s never done that.

QFT

 

[Edge]

I’ve always been a proponent of ranges, more so than thresholds.

So when I think of Hayes, I find it easier to consider him to be a player more in the 45-55 range, than to say he’s a 50 point player per se.

Same with a guy like Kreider. He’s probably a guy in the 25-30 goal range, and a 50-55 point player.

 

[Beacon]

Panarin Zibs Buch
Kreider Hughes Kravtsov
Strome Howden Chytil
Lemiuex Lias Fast

I feel like if I keep typing it.. It will come true

Manifest

Fun fact: this time next year, we'll be projecting Kravtsov as a third liner, while whoever we draft with our top pick in June will be projected in the top-6. Don't believe me? Look at the posts here every Spring: the last first rounder is always projected to be on the second line while still a teenager, but the guy who's all of 20 now and still not a second liner is dumped own.

Why would Chytil be behind Kravtsov next year? Chytil spent this whole year in the NHL, as well as parts of the last year. But since we saw him play, we know he's not a 19 year old superstar and we discount the possibility he improves, while Kravtsov played against weaker opposition, so therefore he'll be a second liner in the NHL as a 19 year old. Yeah, no. We'll be lucky if next year Kravtsov does what Chytil just did this year.

 

[Edge]

Fun fact: this time next year, we'll be projecting Kravtsov as a third liner, while whoever we draft with our top pick in June will be projected in the top-6. Don't believe me? Look at the posts here every Spring: the last first rounder is always projected to be on the second line while still a teenager, but the guy who's all of 20 now and still not a second liner is dumped own.

Why would Chytil be behind Kravtsov next year? Chytil spent this whole year in the NHL, as well as parts of the last year. But since we saw him play, we know he's not a 19 year old superstar and we discount the possibility he improves, while Kravtsov played against weaker opposition, so therefore he'll be a second liner in the NHL as a 19 year old. Yeah, no. We'll be lucky if next year Kravtsov does what Chytil just did this year.

While blunt, this really isn’t inaccurate even going back to the days of Miller and Kreider.

Having said that, I do think Kravtsov is arguably the most naturally talented forward prospect we’ve seen in a while. But while I think the potential is there for him put up more points than Chytil, I’m not sure it will be dramatically more points, nor would I automatically pencil him into the top six.

I’ll also be interested to see how quickly this board turns on Buch if he doesn’t come out of the gate guns-a-blazing.

Because what kind of streak Buch is on goes a long way toward dictating whether we love the guy and pencil him into our first line, or pencil him into our trade proposals for another team’s talent that’s going to overcome his own share of question marks and find new heights of success with us.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Deal Vesey and Names for picks or whatever.

Deal Shatty or dump him in the AHL (he can walk away if he wants to and become an UFA).

Get Fox and sign CURTIS LAZAR as a free agent.

Forget about the big name UFAs.

Kravtsov-Ziba-Buch
Howden-Chytil-Lazar
Lemieux-Lias-Fast
Smith-Strome-Vinny
Staal-TDA
Skjei-Fox
Hajak-Pionk
Geo
Hank

PO team. Questions on this?

Not what I would do but hey what do I know....

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Hayes high as a ranger is 49 points. Why are we calling him a 50 point player? He’s never done that.

What’s a point between fan boys?

 

[duhmetreE]

Fun fact: this time next year, we'll be projecting Kravtsov as a third liner, while whoever we draft with our top pick in June will be projected in the top-6. Don't believe me? Look at the posts here every Spring: the last first rounder is always projected to be on the second line while still a teenager, but the guy who's all of 20 now and still not a second liner is dumped own.

Why would Chytil be behind Kravtsov next year? Chytil spent this whole year in the NHL, as well as parts of the last year. But since we saw him play, we know he's not a 19 year old superstar and we discount the possibility he improves, while Kravtsov played against weaker opposition, so therefore he'll be a second liner in the NHL as a 19 year old. Yeah, no. We'll be lucky if next year Kravtsov does what Chytil just did this year.

Because they're not even close to the same players? They're in different tiers. Chytil, unless he takes major strides in 1 off-season, is not a top6 forward. He literally can't handle the puck ffs

Chytil, for the most part, has looked bad, besides a handful of plays. Kravtsov is on a different level. He's just a better prospect and player at this point. It's not close IMO.

... and it doesn't really matter who's penciled where... Lines will change.. It's the roster that I care about.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

While blunt, this really isn’t inaccurate even going back to the days of Miller and Kreider.

Having said that, I do think Kravtsov is arguably the most naturally talented forward prospect we’ve seen in a while. But while I think the potential is there for him put up more points than Chytil, I’m not sure it will be dramatically more points, nor would I automatically pencil him into the top six.

I’ll also be interested to see how quickly this board turns on Buch if he doesn’t come out of the gate guns-a-blazing.

Because what kind of streak Buch is on goes a long way toward dictating whether we love the guy and pencil him into our first line, or pencil him into our trade proposals for another team’s talent that’s going to overcome his own share of question marks and find new heights of success with us.

Buch needs to be on with Kreider and Zibanajad to be at his best.

 

[Beacon]

Because they're not even close to the same players? They're in different tiers. Chytil, unless he takes major strides in 1 off-season, is not a top6 forward. He literally can't handle the puck ffs

Chytil, for the most part, has looked bad, besides a handful of plays. Kravtsov is on a different level. He's just a better prospect and player at this point. It's not close IMO.

Yeah, it's always not even close in favor of the guy facing easier opponents. Prospects 95% of the time collapse in HF value after they leave the Juniors for the AHL, then lose more value after leaving the AHL for the NHL.

If you cant see how Chytil has top-6, even first line potential, you're just not good at evaluating talent, only see how a player does today against current opposition. Kravtsov desperately wanted to stay in the NHL last summer, but the July camp left the Rangers in no doubt that he won't make it, so he was told to go back. Chytil stuck around 100% of the games. Age-wise, they are 3 months apart.

The idea that Kravtsov is better and it's not even close is based purely on how much easier it is to look good against lesser players. When Chytil was in the AHL a year ago, he looked unreal and he was worse last year than this. The KHL is better than the AHL, but not as good as the NHL. I'm sure if Chytil was in the KHL this year, he'd look insane there.

 

[aufheben]

He can do what Lindros did. Likely? Hehe, nah not even I think that. But not necessarily impossible. I dont think the upset around the league would set any records.

Tampa is on display all over. You can basically not even put EDM on tv for big parts of the season. It’s not optimal.

But he’s not the GM like Eichel, he can’t just trade himself.

 

[duhmetreE]

Yeah, it's always not even close in favor of the guy facing easier opponents. Prospects 95% of the time collapse in HF value after they leave the Juniors for the AHL, then lose more value after leaving the AHL for the NHL.

If you cant see how Chytil has top-6, even first line potential, you're just not good at evaluating talent, only see how a player does today against current opposition. Kravtsov desperately wanted to stay in the NHL last summer, but the July camp left the Rangers in no doubt that he won't make it, so he was told to go back. Chytil stuck around 100% of the games. Age-wise, they are 3 months apart.

I can't tell if you're being serious.

He has a lot of things to work on. His stickhandling is possibly the worst I've ever seen in the NHL and that's not hyperbole. His IQ/processing has left me wanting. He has good wheels, how often has he used them? His shot? he showed good hands when he went coast2coast but that was 2 plays. Defensive play? Effort?

From what I remember, Chytil stayed so he could play here, as opposed to a Czech league. Development wise, Chytil made more sense staying here. KHL is second only to the NHL. So, Kravtsov going back to Russia was a non-issue.

The idea that Kravtsov is better and it's not even close is based purely on how much easier it is to look good against lesser players. When Chytil was in the AHL a year ago, he looked unreal and he was worse last year than this. The KHL is better than the AHL, but not as good as the NHL. I'm sure if Chytil was in the KHL this year, he'd look insane there.

No... It's based on the fact that he's a better player and prospect.

Speculation and hypotheticals are great... If Kravtsov was in the AHL he look insane there.

 

[duhmetreE]

While blunt, this really isn’t inaccurate even going back to the days of Miller and Kreider.

Having said that, I do think Kravtsov is arguably the most naturally talented forward prospect we’ve seen in a while. But while I think the potential is there for him put up more points than Chytil, I’m not sure it will be dramatically more points, nor would I automatically pencil him into the top six.

I’ll also be interested to see how quickly this board turns on Buch if he doesn’t come out of the gate guns-a-blazing.

Because what kind of streak Buch is on goes a long way toward dictating whether we love the guy and pencil him into our first line, or pencil him into our trade proposals for another team’s talent that’s going to overcome his own share of question marks and find new heights of success with us.

I'd say Chytil is closer to Miller and Kreider, in terms of prospects, than Kravtsov.

How long has it been since we had a forward prospect like Kravtsov? Kovalev?

I want Chytil to be a stud. I just haven't seen enough, there's definitely some flashes there but I'm not going to lie to myself. He has top6 potential, absolutely... You see some tools but there's a lot missing

 

[duhmetreE]

Buch needs to be on with Kreider and Zibanajad to be at his best.

He showed flashes before he got hurt. After coming back from the injury he looked like 'old-Buch'... IMO His game picked up when he was playing with Andersson. Buch needs to be engaged and aggressive. It's like a switch was flipped. He bought in to Quinn hockey and is a proud American

 

[Edge]

I'd say Chytil is closer to Miller and Kreider, in terms of prospects, than Kravtsov.

How long has it been since we had a forward prospect like Kravtsov? Kovalev?

I want Chytil to be a stud. I just haven't seen enough, there's definitely some flashes there but I'm not going to lie to myself. He has top6 potential, absolutely... You see some tools but there's a lot missing

I agree that Kravtsov’s upside is a step up from Chytil.

Chytil has and continues to strike me as more of a potential second line player — which at various times over the last two years has not been a popular sentiment.

In terms of having a forward prospect on Kravtsov’s level? I’d say Cherepanov. Different players and different styles, but he was the last guy who I felt I could say had a chance to be top tier talent on the wings.

 

[wafflepadsave]

Pork fat rules. I have a drippings container where I save all fat, not just bacon fat. It's my Master Fat.

I like where this thread is going!

 

[Avery16]

Just went for the last Brussles Sprouts guy in the thread. No biggie.

<sigh>

 

[RGY]

I agree that Kravtsov’s upside is a step up from Chytil.

Chytil has and continues to strike me as more of a potential second line player — which at various times over the last two years has not been a popular sentiment.

In terms of having a forward prospect on Kravtsov’s level? I’d say Cherepanov. Different players and different styles, but he was the last guy who I felt I could say had a chance to be top tier talent on the wings.

And you know what its ok if Chytil becomes a very good top 6 player as long as Kravtsov becomes a top 1st liner. Would be even better if this years 1st in the top 10 can be a 1st line player. Big bonus. Lias still has time to top out as a decent top 6 player and elite top 9 player. But overall its great depth.

Man oh man do we need some luck and somehow jump up to the top 2. We NEED Hughes or Kakko in the worst way.

 

[Edge]

And you know what its ok if Chytil becomes a very good top 6 player as long as Kravtsov becomes a top 1st liner. Would be even better if this years 1st in the top 10 can be a 1st line player. Big bonus. Lias still has time to top out as a decent top 6 player and elite top 9 player. But overall its great depth.

Man oh man do we need some luck and somehow jump up to the top 2. We NEED Hughes or Kakko in the worst way.

And that’s the thing with these kids. So long as we don’t get too carried away with some of them, we’ll find that they turn out to be good players.

Maybe not superstars, but not trash either.

And of course we still need high end talent. I’d LOVE to add Hughes or Kakko. But the quest for perfect, or to acquire the ideal players, doesn’t have to be the enemy of the good.

If we’re going to be truly successful, it will require both.

 

[NYRKING30]

While blunt, this really isn’t inaccurate even going back to the days of Miller and Kreider.

Having said that, I do think Kravtsov is arguably the most naturally talented forward prospect we’ve seen in a while. But while I think the potential is there for him put up more points than Chytil, I’m not sure it will be dramatically more points, nor would I automatically pencil him into the top six.

I’ll also be interested to see how quickly this board turns on Buch if he doesn’t come out of the gate guns-a-blazing.

Because what kind of streak Buch is on goes a long way toward dictating whether we love the guy and pencil him into our first line, or pencil him into our trade proposals for another team’s talent that’s going to overcome his own share of question marks and find new heights of success with us.

This x100... summer of 2017 we had 2 new top 6 forwards in Chytil and Andersson. I already see Adam fox playing top 4 mins already next year and 1st line forward vitalli kravtsov.. no wonder why this place gets up in arms about our kids. If they aren’t playing above their heads in the top 6 or top 4 they are busts. People set themselves up for disappointment. Try to let nature take its course.

 

[rangers1314]

Bobby Mac just tweeted that multiple sources have told him Sather is stepping down in the near future.

 

[Zibanejbread]

 

[Edge]

This x100... summer of 2017 we had 2 new top 6 forwards in Chytil and Andersson. I already see Adam fox playing top 4 mins already next year and 1st line forward vitalli kravtsov.. no wonder why this place gets up in arms about our kids. If they aren’t playing above their heads in the top 6 or top 4 they are busts. People set themselves up for disappointment. Try to let nature take its course.

We’re a very demanding bunch on these kids, and the advent of more websites and social media feeds only feeds into our impatience and anxiety. Both positive and negative opinions take on lives of their own and spread so quickly.

At the end of the day, whether a prospect works out or doesn’t work out, there’s going to be an ebb and flow to things. But no one does our young players any favors by pouring on the gas when a player is on a hot streak, or piling on when the same player is on a cold streak.

 

[xsniper11x]

There are two league wide trends occurring that I think are moving in our direction: the growing amount of star talent becoming available via trade/UFA and the growing importance of depth in the “monster 2nd contract” world post ELC.

I know we all want to draft elite talent. However, it isn’t the only way to acquire it anymore. Due to the cap and younger (less mature) players becoming more demanding, we’re seeing more star talent being traded or reaching UFA than we have seen in years (if ever). Stone, EK, PK, Seguin, Kessel, McD, Duchene, ROR, Hall, plus Tavares and potentially Panarin and EK in UFA. That’s a ton of talent in their 20s we’ve seen on the move in just the last 3-4 years.

Drafting our own star is obviously preferred. However, if we can continue to stockpile quality assets, we should find ourselves in a prime position for any trade opportunity involving elite young talent.

The second trend I think will become ever so important is depth and cap mgmt without cap circumventing contracts to help build the next Hawks. If you look at the types of contracts these young players are demanding and how GMs are caving (looking at you Dubas) it will he very difficult for teams to have the kind of depth prior champs have had. I think this could potentially start moving the league a bit away from the top heavy superstar model to the benefit of the depth model (Vegas, Preds and to some extent the Caps have been prime examples).

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I’ve always been a proponent of ranges, more so than thresholds.

So when I think of Hayes, I find it easier to consider him to be a player more in the 45-55 range, than to say he’s a 50 point player per se.

Same with a guy like Kreider. He’s probably a guy in the 25-30 goal range, and a 50-55 point player.

Not just probably, he's 28, it's what he is. And this is actually only the 2nd time in his career he's scored 25+ goals.