Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIX

[Tawnos]

But they don't need the contract slot or the cap space and he doesn't seem to be a bad teammate

Not everything about roster building is about cap hits and contract slots. This rebuild would be better off without Brendan Smith there simply because his presence requires an unnecessary decision to be made about the roster. There isn't a place in the organization he can play that wouldn't better serve the rebuild to have a young player there. Except Maine, I guess. Not the NHL. Not the AHL. His presence in the organization is a negative.

 

[Riche16]

On the other hand, why waste time with a player who isn't part of the solution today and won't be part of the success tomorrow?

Because our GM signed him to 4 year contract and that as they say, is how the cookie crumbles.

What you shouldn't do is teal from your future (hopefully good team) to solve the problem and kicking that can down the road.

 

[Tawnos]

Unfortunately we will pay for that bonus both in what it costs to acquire him, and then sign him.

Make no mistake about that. His next contract will not reflect him being a 35 point defenseman with the attributes you listed. We will be paying for all of those nice little "bonuses."

I don't mean bonus in the sense that I don't value it. I mean he checks the boxes of several things I like, plus he's good offensively on top of that. Yeah, that makes him more expensive. But that also makes the price potentially worth it.

 

[True Blue]

McDonagh is hailed around here as the best defender weve had in well..... forever.

over the last 7 seasons, hes played an average of 70 reg season games per yr. 70

trouba 6 seasons averaged 68 reg season games. 68

so why are we afraid of jake trouba ?

Do you remember the issues with McDonagh towards the end? Why would you sign on for actually getting yourself into another McDonagh situation?

 

[Edge]

I think stating it was 40 games is a vast minimizing of the role he has had for the last few seasons. Since 16-17 he is 2nd in TOI even though he has Byfuglien and Myers on the right side with him, he's 1st on the Jets in toi%QoC and in CF%QoC and gets the most defensive zone starts. It seems to me he is the #1 defenseman on the team, not Byfuglien or anyone else.

I think most Jets fans would disagree with you.

And again, I'm not arguing he's an effective player --- when he's actually out there.

But we are not talking about missing 5 or even 10 games here and there.

We are talking about missing 17 games, 22 games, 27 games.

These are not little bumps and bruises.

Even beyond that, there's also a world of difference between playing with that Jets team and this Rangers team.

 

[Tawnos]

Because our GM signed him to 4 year contract and that as they say, is how the cookie crumbles.

What you shouldn't do is teal from your future (hopefully good team) to solve the problem and kicking that can down the road.

What you also shouldn't do is exaggerate the impact of $1.1m will have on our cap planning in 21-22 and 22-23 by calling it "stealing from your future"

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Not everything about roster building is about cap hits and contract slots. This rebuild would be better off without Brendan Smith there simply because his presence requires an unnecessary decision to be made about the roster. There isn't a place in the organization he can play that wouldn't better serve the rebuild to have a young player there. Except Maine, I guess. Not the NHL. Not the AHL. His presence in the organization is a negative.

I hear what you're saying, but as long as he's playing 4th line LW and not on D, I don't really see it that way. Right now, he's not blocking anyone and if a Tim Gettinger or someone forces his way up, then you do what Quinn did this year and rotate time in the press box – then buy him out next year if need be. All of which presumes injuries won't open spots, regardless.

I'm all for trading him, but I don't want to incur year 3 and 4 cap penalties just to get him off the team.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

You guys did at least watch the Jets series?

That is a microcosm of what Trouba is, he's really good in his own zone, he is good at getting to the puck to guys who attempt and shoot a lot. His offense is not really what his production line indicates.

Trouba sending passes to his most common teammate forwards Scheifele, Wheeler, Connor, Ehlers, Laine both 5on5 and on the PP are a little different than who he'd be passing to on the Rangers.

I know, the Jets don't have Kakko.

 

[Edge]

I don't mean bonus in the sense that I don't value it. I mean he checks the boxes of several things I like, plus he's good offensively on top of that. Yeah, that makes him more expensive. But that also makes the price potentially worth it.

And the truth is, he could.

But while there are several boxes he checks, there are some glaring question marks as well.

 

[Tawnos]

I hear what you're saying, but as long as he's playing 4th line LW and not on D, I don't really see it that way. Right now, he's not blocking anyone and if a Tim Gettinger or someone forces his way up, then you do what Quinn did this year and rotate time in the press box – then buy him out next year if need be. All of which presumes injuries won't open spots, regardless.

I'm all for trading him, but I don't want to incur year 3 and 4 cap penalties just to get him off the team.

Him playing forward forced Nieves out of the lineup on a few occasions.

 

[Edge]

Do you remember the issues with McDonagh towards the end? Why would you sign on for actually getting yourself into another McDonagh situation?

After watching some of the debates on here with our own guys, why do I get the feeling that if Trouba was already ours, coming off a very successful season, after an injury plagued career thus far, that we'd be looking at his upcoming contract and looking to trade him while he had peak value?

I like Trouba. But I also feel like he's one of those names that this board has crushed on for a few years, and that he comes dangerously close to occupying a blind spot in our mirrors.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

McDonagh is hailed around here as the best defender weve had in well..... forever.

over the last 7 seasons, hes played an average of 70 reg season games per yr. 70

trouba 6 seasons averaged 68 reg season games. 68

so why are we afraid of jake trouba ?

You mean McDonagh, the guy that was traded because the team didn’t want to give him a long term contract?

 

[offdacrossbar]

Which speaks to the other side of this equation.

The Jets are in a very different zone than the Rangers at this point.

So, let's go ahead and say the injuries are all a fluke, the 40 games as a number one is proof enough, and the cost of acquiring and signing is no cause for concern.

That leads me back to the initial concern I expressed --- I think there'd be a significant drop coming and the dream of Trouba wouldn't quite match the reality of him being here, with this lineup.

And when the latter happens, I can see a lot of Rick Nash type discussions on here.

i seriously believe you could construct an argument against any player we could potentially look too acquire.

pretty sure nash was 28 when he was traded.

trouba has averaged 68 games played over 6 seasons. thats factored into his next deal but shouldn't preclude him from being a trade target.

hes 25. hes a righty. hes a 2 way dman who plays a solid defensive game. he skates well. hes a us kid from minny. he had 50 points last season.

he would have been our 3rd leading scorer last yr. and his 50 points is 20 points more than ADA- our top scoring dman. and i get that the peg roster isnt our roster and so those numbers would be lower, but, my point remains.

if theres a dman you go after, he would seem to be the one. and hes available which is something that rarely happens.

 

[Off Sides]

I know, the Jets don't have Kakko.

For some reason me envisioning Trouba passing to Vesey just does not seem to have the same potential.

 

[DanielBrassard]

You mean McDonagh, the guy that was traded because the team didn’t want to give him a long term contract?

McDonagh would have gotten a long-term contract if he was the same age as Trouba, this is a faulty comparison.

 

[MyLoveIsBlue]

It's so frustrating that 14 months into a rebuild, the only talk here is UFA acquisition. It is just common sense that what we need is this UFA or that UFA, just a matter of who we get and how much we pay for him. But nobody doubts if we even need a UFA.

 

[offdacrossbar]

You mean McDonagh, the guy that was traded because the team didn’t want to give him a long term contract?

yes, that guy.

whos play had visibly slipped at 27 yrs of age. who couldn't hit the net on the pp or keep the puck in the zone on the pp point. who seemed burdened by the C on his jersey. who was always banged up and trending in the wrong direction.

doesnt sound much like jake trouba now does it ? and remember, mcd was older and had more miles.

 

[ETTER DE]

It's so frustrating that 14 months into a rebuild, the only talk here is UFA acquisition. It is just common sense that what we need is this UFA or that UFA, just a matter of who we get and how much we pay for him. But nobody doubts if we even need a UFA.

Why do you say 14 months into a rebuild? The rebuild started after the loss to Penguins in the 2016 playoffs. When Gorton said the team needed to get younger. And let Yandle and Staal walk and traded Brassard. And if posters on this forum is to be trusted, he also made attempts to trade Stepan and McDonagh. It was the complete teardown that started 14 months ago. The rebuild has been going on for three years.

 

[Edge]

i seriously believe you could construct an argument against any player we could potentially look too acquire.

pretty sure nash was 28 when he was traded.

trouba has averaged 68 games played over 6 seasons. thats factored into his next deal but shouldn't preclude him from being a trade target.

hes 25. hes a righty. hes a 2 way dman who plays a solid defensive game. he skates well. hes a us kid from minny. he had 50 points last season.

he would have been our 3rd leading scorer last yr. and his 50 points is 20 points more than ADA- our top scoring dman. and i get that the peg roster isnt our roster and so those numbers would be lower, but, my point remains.

if theres a dman you go after, he would seem to be the one. and hes available which is something that rarely happens.

It's all about timing and cost.

If he's as great as everyone truly believes he is, you're not acquiring him on the cheap.

You can't talk about how great a player is, all of his wonderful attributes, and how much highway is in front of him, and then expect to flip the Jets Brady Skjei, or their first, or the prospects we're kind of lukewarm on for the moment.

It doesn't work that. You're going to pay a sizable price for the asset you just talked up.

And then once you purchase said item, you're going to pay a sizable price to sign him.

And right now, with where this team is, no, and with Trouba's history, I'm honestly not convinced he's the right choice.

Last year, I read VOLUMES of pages, and numbers, and reasons why EK was the type of player we should be going after, how he was worth the investment, how players like him don't come around often, and all the rest.

We practically have a form letter we plug names into when a player has come up over the last 12 months.

I mean literally, this is the third our fourth player in the last 12 months I've heard about who is rarely available.

At some point, maybe it isn't as rare as we think.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Reflecting on the last few pages of back-and-forth, I come back to my original point re: acquiring Trouba.

I'm not interested in acquiring him at just any ol' cost; I'm interested in him for a trade that revolves primarily around Skjei, and for a subsequent contract that carries a cap hit of no more than ~$8MM per year.

I may be wrong, but I feel that most people arguing against are making their argument out of fear that he'll command significantly more in terms of a trade and/or contract – and if that's the case, then I'll be inclined to agree with you.

It's all about timing and cost.

If he's as great as everyone truly believes he is, you're not acquiring him on the cheap.

You can't talk about how great a player is, all of his wonderful attributes, and how much highway is in front of him, and then expect to flip the Jets Brady Skjei, or their first, or the prospects we're kind of lukewarm on for the moment.

It doesn't work that. You're going to pay a sizable price for the asset you just talked up.

And then once you purchase said item, you're going to pay a sizable price to sign him.

And right now, with where this team is, no, and with Trouba's history, I'm honestly not convinced he's the right choice.

Last year, I read VOLUMES of pages, and numbers, and reasons why EK was the type of player we should be going after, how he was worth the investment, how players like him don't come around often, and all the rest.

We practically have a form letter we plug names into when a player has come up over the last 12 months.

I mean literally, this is the third our fourth player in the last 12 months I've heard about is rarely available.

At some point, maybe it isn't as rare as we think.

Or in other words, I'm not at all arguing with @Edge – provided he is correct in his estimation. Indeed, if his guess re: trade/contract costs is correct, then, I'd agree the Rangers should stay away.

 

[Edge]

yes, that guy.

whos play had visibly slipped at 27 yrs of age. who couldn't hit the net on the pp or keep the puck in the zone on the pp point. who seemed burdened by the C on his jersey. who was always banged up and trending in the wrong direction.

doesnt sound much like jake trouba now does it ? and remember, mcd was older and had more miles.

No, but he did look a lot better when he was "one of" the guys and not "the guy".

And there's a lesson in that.

McD had a more miles because he hadn't missed 83 games over his career at the age of 26.

I don't think Trouba missing 83 games because of injury counts as less miles.

That's like arguing a car is in better condition because it has less miles. But neglecting to mention that's because it sat broken down in the driveway for 3 months most years.

 

[Tawnos]

And the truth is, he could.

But while there are several boxes he checks, there are some glaring question marks as well.

I don't really think those question marks even exist, much less could be described as glaring. I'm not saying he's a perfect player, but do you really believe that a 25-year old player on a standard progression arc just had his career season?

 

[Edge]

I don't really think those question marks even exist, much less could be described as glaring. I'm not saying he's a perfect player, but do you really believe that a 25-year old player on a standard progression arc just had his career season?

I dunno, would you have believed the same about McD in 2014, with far less time lost to injuries?

 

[Riche16]

Do you remember the issues with McDonagh towards the end? Why would you sign on for actually getting yourself into another McDonagh situation?

Exactly. But also give up assets to get there and pay him almost double what McD was making.

 

[Riche16]

What you also shouldn't do is exaggerate the impact of $1.1m will have on our cap planning in 21-22 and 22-23 by calling it "stealing from your future"

It is though... especially when you already have dead cap space. Just buy out Staal too! and Kirk! and Hank!

It adds up and I want the 2021 NYR to have all the cap they need to add whoever they f***ing want