Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIX

[DanielBrassard]

If we aren't moving for Trouba, I really need to see some sort of move, be it for a higher draft pick or young prospect, that gets a potential #1 all situations defenseman in the system. Miller maybe has that upside but I'd expect he's got about a "C" chance of achieving it via the old HF ranking system.

With the addition of Kakko, who frankly could be either a top wing OR center at the NHL level from what I've read, 1D is the big vacant spot in our future.

We could build depth and have 3 well balanced pairings without a true star blueliner, but that's not an ideal situation, much like our "Three second lines" offensive situations of the past.

I think it's much easier to get by without a star blueliner than it would be without a true star forward. But I agree it's far from ideal. But if hypothetically you could only have a choice of either it would be forward>defenseman 100%

 

[Tawnos]

I think it's much easier to get by without a star blueliner than it would be without a true star forward. But I agree it's far from ideal. But if hypothetically you could only have a choice of either it would be forward>defenseman 100%

Center>D>Winger IMO

 

[FIRE DRURY]

No it has not. That is how they are spinning it. To cover for the fact that they ruined their own rebuild. Please do not buy it.

Nonsense.

Why didn’t you see the team torn apart when Stepan and Brassard were traded?

Why did we sign free agent vets if we were in fact, rebuilding? Rebuilding teams don’t typically sign veteran dmen to multi year contracts.

We weren’t rebuilding. The real rebuild started last season. That’s when Gorton started dismantling the team for picks and prospects. And the rebuild was not ruined by Shatty and Smith. We just won the lottery and will be picking 2nd OA.

Nobody is buying the nonsense you keep discharging so stop trying to convince people you know what the hell youre talking about.

 

[ETTER DE]

Retooling isn’t rebuilding

Again, just over a year after Gorton stated that they needed to get younger 60% of the team was replaced. And it is clear that he also wanted to trade McDonagh. That is not a retool, that is rebuilding.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Center>D>Winger IMO

I'd still take the winger unless the defenseman is a Karlsson/Burns who can score 70+ points consistently.

 

[Tawnos]

I'd still take the winger unless the defenseman is a Karlsson/Burns who can score 70+ points consistently.

If we are talking about players with relatively equal value in their positions, I prefer the D over the W. Say, for example, if the choice is between Kane and Keith at their peaks.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Again, just over a year after Gorton stated that they needed to get younger 60% of the team was replaced. And it is clear that he also wanted to trade McDonagh. That is not a retool, that is rebuilding.

But he wasn’t traded the year prior. He was traded after the letter went out saying we’re going to rebuild.

You’re incapable of differentiating a retool from a rebuild. Clearly.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

If we aren't moving for Trouba, I really need to see some sort of move, be it for a higher draft pick or young prospect, that gets a potential #1 all situations defenseman in the system. Miller maybe has that upside but I'd expect he's got about a "C" chance of achieving it via the old HF ranking system.

With the addition of Kakko, who frankly could be either a top wing OR center at the NHL level from what I've read, 1D is the big vacant spot in our future.

We could build depth and have 3 well balanced pairings without a true star blueliner, but that's not an ideal situation, much like our "Three second lines" offensive situations of the past.

I'm with you on finding that guy, but I don't think either of the last 2 cup winners had that guy either (Letang was out for the entire 2017 playoffs. Carlson would qualify for some, but only those who want to ignore that he sucks at Defense.)

I really want to pull Rasmus Andersson out of Calgary though.

 

[Fitzy]

I'm with you on finding that guy, but I don't think either of the last 2 cup winners had that guy either (Letang was out for the entire 2017 playoffs. Carlson would qualify for some, but only those who want to ignore that he sucks at Defense.)

I really want to pull Rasmus Andersson out of Calgary though.

Sure, but in an ideal scenario we prepare for all situations, and if guys don't pan out you make due with what you have.

I'd rather not go into playoff contention with the mindset that we're going to rely fully on specialist defensemen who are good either only on offense or defense, and only play either the PP or PK.

That said, maybe Hajek takes huge steps next year. Maybe Rykov surprises with his translation to NA sized ice.

 

[ETTER DE]

But he wasn’t traded the year prior. He was traded after the letter went out saying we’re going to rebuild.

You’re incapable of differentiating a retool from a rebuild. Clearly.

I neither can or will try to make an effort to convince you. If you believe so than we see it differently.

 

[iamitter]

We could get a lot of surprises on defense. When McDonagh was traded to us, we did not expect him to become a top pairing defenseman. Heck, even after his first full pro season with us, half in the AHL and half in the NHL, we simply thought him and Sauer made a phenomenal second pairing. Staal & Girardi were viewed as better.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

I neither can or will try to make an effort to convince you. If you believe so than we see it differently.

Retooling and rebuilding aren't the same thing.

 

[Zibanejbread]

We should have been in the ECF the season after we traded Brassard...

 

[Edge]

I'm sorry, but name anyone on this D who is nearing 25 years old defensemen who is up and coming on this roster who people would even want to trade?

ADA? Definitely not, kid is a stud at 24.
Pionk? he's 24, he sucks, and people STILL want him here.
Skjei? Nobody is saying trade Skjei for picks--people are talking Hockey Trade here
John Gilmour? he is AHL Fodder...


We get it, you hate Trouba, 9000 question marks, not healthy al lthe time, blah blah balh...

Yet he's played enarly the same average game count per season as our own former god of a defenseman Ryan McDonagh.

Come on man, this is rather shortsighted of you, and surprising considering your typical posts

Yes, I hate Trouba. He kicks puppies and spits on old people. Damn him. Damn him and his oily hide.

Now that I’ve entertained that horse shit of a comment, we’ll get back to reality. And I’m going to go nice and slow and enjoy this.

About your same average count line. Let’s fact check that for a second.

Through his age 24 season, after turning pro, the maximum number of NHL games McD could’ve played was 252.

He played in all but 5 of them.

Not 50.

Not 15.

5.

That means he played in 98 percent of his team’s games.

Trouba, in the same age range, played in 278 out of 328.

That means he missed 50 games.

Not 15.

Not 5.

50.

But, hey, I get it. He played more games. So percentages is more accurate.

So that means Trouba has played in a little under 85 percent of the games.

But hey, what’s 14 and change percent, right?

Well, as it turns out, quite a bit. Multiplying the percentages across a full season it works out to hair above an 80 game average for McD, and a hair above 69 games for Trouba.

Now, let us also consider that we’ve actually raised Trouba’s averaged because we’ve cut out Trouba’s first two years of 65 games each. But McD wasn’t in the NHL, so thems the breaks. But needless to say, an expanded data pool doesn’t help either player’s cause.

Let us also consider that it was indeed McD subsequent durability, not included in this sample size, that was a contributing factor to him being dealt.

So with all that said, let’s put that little debate in the junk pile.

As for the second part, you sure about that?

Skjei’s been included in deals ranging from Edmonton, to the Trouba deal. Some of those proposals include picks.

ADA hasn’t been included in trade proposals, partly because we’ve been too busy debating why he isn’t in the lineup.

Pionk is what he is, and even the people who don’t like him don’t see a lot of trade value there.

But probably the most accurate comparison would be Zibanejad, whose own questions about durability had him in his fair share of proposals right up until the new year, when he just kept going.

Before that, even on a great contract, yeah, he was in the proposals.

You don’t agree. That’s cool dude.

But don’t @ me like that.

I’ve been around long enough that you gotta know that approach isn’t going to get a friendly response and I’m gonna double check your math.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Again, just over a year after Gorton stated that they needed to get younger 60% of the team was replaced. And it is clear that he also wanted to trade McDonagh. That is not a retool, that is rebuilding.

Or, it started as a retool, then they decided if they were going to retool, it would be better to just rebuild because they didn’t have any sort of cornerstone players on the team or coming up through the system

 

[bobbop]

I like Trouba. But I also feel like he's one of those names that this board has crushed on for a few years, and that he comes dangerously close to occupying a blind spot in our mirrors.

Guilty as charged.

When I first saw Trouba as a 19 year old, I couldn't believe how well rounded his game was. He was an effective player from day one and I love his bite. Because I live in the west, I get to see a lot of the Jets and he has been one of my favorites all along. I do worry if I am letting my admiration for the player get in the way of a solid judgement. And I'll admit, he's been my favorite Jet for a long time.

So this year, I tried to watch a little more dispassionately. Results? I thought this year he took a huge step forward. I love his ability to be a shutdown defenseman when matched against top lines. I like his improved offense (albeit mostly due to more power play time) I think he is blossoming.

I don't know how this game will play out but I am sure interested to see where it goes.

 

[Edge]

Guilty as charged.

When I first saw Trouba as a 19 year old, I couldn't believe how well rounded his game was. He was an effective player from day one and I love his bite. Because I live in the west, I get to see a lot of the Jets and he has been one of my favorites all along. I do worry if I am letting my admiration for the player get in the way of a solid judgement. And I'll admit, he's been my favorite Jet for a long time.

So this year, I tried to watch a little more dispassionately. Results? I thought this year he took a huge step forward. I love his ability to be a shutdown defenseman when matched against top lines. I like his improved offense (albeit mostly due to more power play time) I think he is blossoming.

I don't know how this game will play out but I am sure interested to see where it goes.

And that’s thing, when he’s healthy, he’s a damn good player.

I might question his durability. Or his ability to permanently occupy that number one spot on a team like the Rangers. Or even the cost of acquiring and signing him.

But I fully acknowledge the talent is there.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Honestly you already mentioned him: Ristolainen. I think he's a heck of a lot better than the reputation he gets, and I would love to see him in a new environment with a youth-focused coaching staff.

Totally open to this as well.

 

[bobbop]

Why don't we just play Smith since he is a good defenseman and also plays well at forward?

Well for starters, he isn't and he doesn't.

 

[bobbop]

I know the Trouba speculation has heated up since the Brooks article but I am afraid that the Jets management may well be willing to suck it up, get another year out of him and then let him walk. I'm not sure they value controllable assets over another Stanley Cup run next year

 

[Edge]

I know the Trouba speculation has heated up since the Brooks article but I am afraid that the Jets management may well be willing to suck it up, get another year out of him and then let him walk. I'm not sure they value controllable assets over another Stanley Cup run next year

Could view him as their own “rental.”

 

[Trxjw]

Totally open to this as well.

He gets a pretty bad reputation on this forum, but I think he has more to give. This is a kid who had questions about his offensive potential during his draft year, but was lauded for his hockey sense and solid transitional play, as well as his ability to play a reliable, simple game in his own end. Where did that player go and how did he end up as a PP specialist in the NHL? Get him out of that rotten environment in Buffalo and give him the opportunity to rediscover his game and I think it'll pay dividends. Signed for 3 more years an a very decent contract.

 

[kovazub94]

Forget about revamping the defense for a second. Forget about #1, #2 or #3 designations. Forget about deployment or usage. Forget contract. Forget cost to acquire.

Right now, this guy has missed nearly 20 percent of his teams over this career. That means over a six year career, he's actually missed more than entire season's worth of games.

Before I even get into the other stuff, I've gotta see if this guy can consistently stay in a lineup.

If he can't even do that with a reasonable degree of hope, the other stuff is going to take a back seat pretty quick.

This is where the Rangers doing their due diligence comes in to make a judgement whether the health concerns are warranted. Judging by the type of injuries, Trouba’s body type, his ability to recover and lack of lasting effect on his performance I cannot see a risk that’s greater than normal.

 

[LORDE]

Instead of Trouba lets spend assets and poach the next Trouba from some GM

 

[Ola]

If we aren't moving for Trouba, I really need to see some sort of move, be it for a higher draft pick or young prospect, that gets a potential #1 all situations defenseman in the system. Miller maybe has that upside but I'd expect he's got about a "C" chance of achieving it via the old HF ranking system.

With the addition of Kakko, who frankly could be either a top wing OR center at the NHL level from what I've read, 1D is the big vacant spot in our future.

We could build depth and have 3 well balanced pairings without a true star blueliner, but that's not an ideal situation, much like our "Three second lines" offensive situations of the past.

Good point.

The article in the link to TSNs website I posted this morning just underlines the time line that must be considered with drafted defenders. The top Ds start to enter their prime at 24-25 and keep it up until 32-34, on average.

The time-line with Lias, Chytil, Kravy and Kakko just don’t add up with building a blueline on defenders that we plan to pick this and next summer.

Still, I am not that concerned. It’s RD that is hard to fill, we got depth there. It’s the mix that counts, I like K’Andree in a few years. Big guys next to our skilled RDs. Skjei will grow, he is growing into the role. What we don’t have is someone that can PK, that should take the top shifts with a lead when we have to defend etc. And we don’t only ‘not’ have that guy, we don’t have room for him either.

I was told that moving Shattenkirk only would get easier. Can Gorton do it this summer? The first thing Gorton should have done after sending the letter should have been to shop Shattenkirk. It was clear as day. Retain, add picks and do whatever it took. Brooks and co went on about moving everyone, but Shatty wasn’t mentioned. That just wasn’t good.

Is Shatty taking up a spot at RD for two more years pushing a kid into a hopeless situation because the vet we have can’t play tough minutes?

Quite frankly, the fact that we didn’t do everything to get rid of Shatty when the letter was sent is such a bad decision that it should warrant some kind of investigative commission that tries to sort out how it was possible. We just cannot keep making mistakes like that.