Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXXIV

[IDvsEGO]

They have too many guys who don’t produce enough to justify their lack of defense or don’t defend enough to justify their lack of production. A lot of tweeners. They’re being carried by the Big Four, Fox, Trouba, the fourth line, and Igor.

Im going to point out how rediculous this sounds.

Pittsburg is carried by crosby/malkin and letang.
Washington is carried by ovi/backstrom/carlson
Tampa is carried by vasy/point/hedman/kucherov
Toronto is carried by matthews/marner/tavares
Florida is carried by barkov/huberdau/ekbald
Boston is carried by marchand/bergeron/pasta
Colorado is carried by mackinnon/rantanen/makar

Some teams have more stars than others, simply due to cap.

The rangers are absolutely being carried by their best 4 players plus their defense and goaltending. There are very few exceptions to this. Teams are carried by star players, because that why they're star players. No team has 12 star forwards, and 4 star defensemen. Nor does a team win the stanley cup without star players (the 2014 rangers would've been the first but hank had a playoff run for the ages that year)

In the playoffs, you then get contributions from other players, because the games tighten up but you still get carried to the playoffs by your star players, and then need your star players to out perform the other teams stars.

Would you prefer the rangers to go back to playing under tort ? 4 grind lines that do nothing but forecheck and skate hard, but then are forced to win only because a goalie stands on his head.

 

[LokiDog]

This is pretty much where I'm at.

Drury needs to make the decision this summer if Lafreniere and Kakko are a part of the winning formula. If they're not, trade them while they still have value.

It's a very blunt and harsh assessment, but when you have a window where you still have Kreider, Panarin, Shesterkin, Fox, Trouba, and Zibanejad all in their primes and you've identified them as the core for the next contention window, you need to make moves to win before their play drops off to a point that they're not a part of the winning formula.

If Lafreniere and Kakko are not going to be contributing parts of that core, ship them out. The Rangers as a team can't wait another 3 or 4 years until they figure it out and become top 6 forwards. Kakko in particular still has the upside in my mind to be a Jere Lehtinen type of player that excels on defense and still puts up 50-60 points on a top line with the team's point producers. I'll go against the grain and say that I'm more willing to keep Kakko over Lafreniere long term because of this. Lafreniere simply has been a huge disappointment. If he's not going to show it by next year, he's gone. How many first overall picks that didn't bust turned it on in year 3 or 4? MacKinnon is the only one I can really think of at the moment. I'm not going to put lipstick on a pig here. I just don't see it with Lafreniere. He doesn't keep his feet moving enough to compensate for his lack of high end skill. His IQ is super high and because of it he thinks he can coast. He's the guy I'm dealing for a center.

If Vancouver calls up and offers an extended Horvat for Lafreniere, I really think long and hard about it. But for now, yes, moves like Lehkonen, Jarnkrok, and Crouse are the ones to make, preferably one of the first two that play RW. RFA or UFA at year's end but would extend here for another 3 or 4 years to be a 3rd line piece. There's going to be room for Cuylle, Othmann, and Berard still.

I couldn’t agree more. The fact is, it may be true that Laf will be fine and be a star in 3 years. The problem is, Kreider, Trouba, Fox, Panarin, Zib and especially Shesty while still under contract, really can’t be waiting until 3 years from now to start going for it. A lot of people are saying that if you move Laf and he ends up reaching his potential it’s egg on your face. To me, if you trade Laf for someone like Horvat and win a Cup and contend for a few years, even if Laf becomes an 80 point winger in Vancouver, it was worth it. Sure, Laf’s ceiling is higher. Sure, if he nails it, you’ll be saying oh, we could have had him. Whatever. There’s no guarantee he’d hit that potential here with the way we are approaching things, and frankly, I’d rather give us the best 4 year window possible while Kreider, Zib, Panarin, Trouba are prime and Shesterkin is on this contract. Replace the Chytils and Gauthiers with guys like Lehkonen, who are proven wingers that fit a third line role. Chytil and Gauthier are total question marks. We don’t have time for that, especially if we want to wait on Laf and Kakko. If we’re going to wait for Laf and Kakko we definitely need proven guys in their roles to supplement. I still would probably gamble with one of Laf/KK and I do lean toward KK having the lower offensive ceiling but better overall package.

 

[IDvsEGO]

This is pretty much where I'm at.

Drury needs to make the decision this summer if Lafreniere and Kakko are a part of the winning formula. If they're not, trade them while they still have value.

It's a very blunt and harsh assessment, but when you have a window where you still have Kreider, Panarin, Shesterkin, Fox, Trouba, and Zibanejad all in their primes and you've identified them as the core for the next contention window, you need to make moves to win before their play drops off to a point that they're not a part of the winning formula.

If Lafreniere and Kakko are not going to be contributing parts of that core, ship them out. The Rangers as a team can't wait another 3 or 4 years until they figure it out and become top 6 forwards. Kakko in particular still has the upside in my mind to be a Jere Lehtinen type of player that excels on defense and still puts up 50-60 points on a top line with the team's point producers. I'll go against the grain and say that I'm more willing to keep Kakko over Lafreniere long term because of this. Lafreniere simply has been a huge disappointment. If he's not going to show it by next year, he's gone. How many first overall picks that didn't bust turned it on in year 3 or 4? MacKinnon is the only one I can really think of at the moment. I'm not going to put lipstick on a pig here. I just don't see it with Lafreniere. He doesn't keep his feet moving enough to compensate for his lack of high end skill. His IQ is super high and because of it he thinks he can coast. He's the guy I'm dealing for a center.

If Vancouver calls up and offers an extended Horvat for Lafreniere, I really think long and hard about it. But for now, yes, moves like Lehkonen, Jarnkrok, and Crouse are the ones to make, preferably one of the first two that play RW. RFA or UFA at year's end but would extend here for another 3 or 4 years to be a 3rd line piece. There's going to be room for Cuylle, Othmann, and Berard still.

WOW. Just absolutely WOW.

We luck out with a 2/1 lotto wins in back to back years. We have a first line thats top 15 in the league (mika/ck) and a second line that top 3 (ap/strome), and that gives us the luxury of letting the kids come along slowly, so you want to trade them to win now.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

hangon, you said mckegg is in this lineup when the team is healthy. No hypotheticals here or spinning narratives.

1. Has mckegg been in the lineup once while this team has been healthy? No.

2. Was mckegg sent off the main roster when certain players got healthy? Yes.

Your statement is factually incorrect, in fact his ice time is also dropping from 12mins to 9mins and to just 6mins the last game.

Exactly. You are saying that he will come out when we are healthy, right? Who is Gallant pulling him out of the lineup for? Simple question.

 

[JohnC]

In 2013 @Thirty One helped me with my accounting homework

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

This is pretty much where I'm at.

Drury needs to make the decision this summer if Lafreniere and Kakko are a part of the winning formula. If they're not, trade them while they still have value.

It's a very blunt and harsh assessment, but when you have a window where you still have Kreider, Panarin, Shesterkin, Fox, Trouba, and Zibanejad all in their primes and you've identified them as the core for the next contention window, you need to make moves to win before their play drops off to a point that they're not a part of the winning formula.

If Lafreniere and Kakko are not going to be contributing parts of that core, ship them out. The Rangers as a team can't wait another 3 or 4 years until they figure it out and become top 6 forwards. Kakko in particular still has the upside in my mind to be a Jere Lehtinen type of player that excels on defense and still puts up 50-60 points on a top line with the team's point producers. I'll go against the grain and say that I'm more willing to keep Kakko over Lafreniere long term because of this. Lafreniere simply has been a huge disappointment. If he's not going to show it by next year, he's gone. How many first overall picks that didn't bust turned it on in year 3 or 4? MacKinnon is the only one I can really think of at the moment. I'm not going to put lipstick on a pig here. I just don't see it with Lafreniere. He doesn't keep his feet moving enough to compensate for his lack of high end skill. His IQ is super high and because of it he thinks he can coast. He's the guy I'm dealing for a center.

If Vancouver calls up and offers an extended Horvat for Lafreniere, I really think long and hard about it. But for now, yes, moves like Lehkonen, Jarnkrok, and Crouse are the ones to make, preferably one of the first two that play RW. RFA or UFA at year's end but would extend here for another 3 or 4 years to be a 3rd line piece. There's going to be room for Cuylle, Othmann, and Berard still.

Not that I necessarily disagree with your analysis but this would be extremely hard to stomach as a fan. Launching a “rebuild” to build a long term contender as the letter stated...to end up giving up on the highest picks this franchise has ever had...to maximize a what, 2-3 year “window” around the timing of vets like Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider, and Trouba who have won jack all in their career?

I mean that’s kind of an absurd change of plans that is a borderline dealbreaker for me. But at the end of the day a great reminder that any fandom for this team is really just fandom for a billionaire’s plaything.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Exactly. You are saying that he will come out when we are healthy, right? Who is Gallant pulling him out of the lineup for? Simple question.

Assuming a healthy lineup for the rangers (this includes blais)

laf/mika/ck
Panarin/Strome/KK
Goat/chytil/blais
Rooney/Goodrow/hunt

Assuming blais is out, you slide hunt up, and then reaves in. But still no mckegg.
Mckegg isnt even our 13th in this.

 

[I Eat Crow]

WOW. Just absolutely WOW.

We luck out with a 2/1 lotto wins in back to back years. We have a first line thats top 15 in the league (mika/ck) and a second line that top 3 (ap/strome), and that gives us the luxury of letting the kids come along slowly, so you want to trade them to win now.

I'm not the one that signed Panarin, traded for Trouba, and extended Kreider. The previous regime did this and pigeonholed Drury into this situation. If the goal is to win hockey games and a Cup, making the most of what you have even if it means trading away a piece or two that really hurts is what will need to be done.

Here's another way of putting it. As is, Lafreniere and Kakko aren't major contributors to the success of the team right now. Unless they both take massive leaps forward next year, they won't be contributors as long as this team's window is open. It's open starting this year and open as long as you have Shesterkin playing Vezina caliber hockey, Panarin playing like a top 10 player in the league, and Zibanejad, Kreider, and Trouba contributing on both sides of the puck. Once they drop off, the window closes and you liquidate and start the process all over again. You can trade one or two and retool on the fly, then what? Lafreniere and Kakko are 40 point and 50 point wingers respectively and need new contracts when they're UFA's? Whoopty doo. You're treading water at that point and you're the 1998 to 2002 Rangers with over the hill and overpaid stars.

OR

You trade one or both now for someone valuable that helps this team win during this window. Either way, we're starting the cycle again in 4 or 5 years that we just went through from 2017-2019, so may as well make the most of it while Kreider, Panarin, Shesterkin, Zib, Trouba, and Fox are all in their primes.

It's fine to keep Lafreniere and Kakko and let them develop if the idea was to force feed them 20 minutes a night in all situations if the Rangers committed to a full rebuild whilst continuing to build the team through high picks. They didn't though. Making the moves to acquire the core blunted the rebuild and turned it into a retool very quickly. Being Edmonton or Buffalo perpetually rebuilding isn't fun either, though.

It just sucks. The Rangers would be among the Cup favorites right now with Lundell and Zegras on the roster instead of Lafreniere and Kakko. Even when the Rangers win the draft lottery, they lose.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Assuming a healthy lineup for the rangers (this includes blais)

laf/mika/ck
Panarin/Strome/KK
Goat/chytil/blais
Rooney/Goodrow/hunt

Assuming blais is out, you slide hunt up, and then reaves in. But still no mckegg.
Mckegg isnt even our 13th in this.

Well Blais is gone for the season, so the Rangers will have to be healthy without him. So you are saying that when Chytil and Kakko come back McKegg is out of the lineup? Because we know Reaves aint coming out.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Well Blais is gone for the season, so the Rangers will have to be healthy without him. So you are saying that when Chytil and Kakko come back McKegg is out of the lineup? Because we know Reaves aint coming out.

I dont have a problem with that.
Reaves does need the occasional off day, but yes.
The other option is that we start calling some kids up once we start locking up the playoff positioning. I'd like to see pajunami and/or cullye get a shot to spark something before the playoffs.
Barron was decent earlier but then stunk vs carolina.

 

[bleedblue94]

Exactly. You are saying that he will come out when we are healthy, right? Who is Gallant pulling him out of the lineup for? Simple question.

@IDvsEGO answered you, and that means mckegg isn't in the lineup with blais out and barron in the minors, and it still doesnt take into consideration that drury is going to add more to this lineup.

You are complaining to complain at this point. You are acting like mckegg is a staple to this roster when his ice time is dropping and he is only here bc of injuries.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Not that I necessarily disagree with your analysis but this would be extremely hard to stomach as a fan. Launching a “rebuild” to build a long term contender as the letter stated...to end up giving up on the highest picks this franchise has ever had...to maximize a what, 2-3 year “window” around the timing of vets like Panarin, Zibanejad, Kreider, and Trouba who have won jack all in their career?

I mean that’s kind of an absurd change of plans that is a borderline dealbreaker for me. But at the end of the day a great reminder that any fandom for this team is really just fandom for a billionaire’s plaything.

For sure.

Doing what "The Letter" set out to do isn't exactly fun either and is a good way to become Edmonton or Buffalo. I'd rather that the Rangers did what they ended up doing and shipped out pieces of the old core that weren't cutting it anymore and started to rebuild depth in the prospect pool again with those acquired pieces and used others to retool and formulate a new core through some shrewd trades and UFA signings. There are things I disagreed with like trading McDonagh (I would have kept him), but others were for the best (Stepan trade and Zucc trade).

We see it with the area's football teams. The Jets and Giants have been perpetually rebuilding for the past decade with just about nothing to show for it. Tearing it down to the studs every 5 years is a great way to build angst among a fanbase. Not that 4 Cups in 80 years is something to be proud of either...

 

[IDvsEGO]

I'm not the one that signed Panarin, traded for Trouba, and extended Kreider. The previous regime did this and pigeonholed Drury into this situation. If the goal is to win hockey games and a Cup, making the most of what you have even if it means trading away a piece or two that really hurts is what will need to be done.

Here's another way of putting it. As is, Lafreniere and Kakko aren't major contributors to the success of the team right now. Unless they both take massive leaps forward next year, they won't be contributors as long as this team's window is open. It's open starting this year and open as long as you have Shesterkin playing Vezina caliber hockey, Panarin playing like a top 10 player in the league, and Zibanejad, Kreider, and Trouba contributing on both sides of the puck. Once they drop off, the window closes and you liquidate and start the process all over again. You can trade one or two and retool on the fly, then what? Lafreniere and Kakko are 40 point and 50 point wingers respectively and need new contracts when they're UFA's? Whoopty doo. You're treading water at that point and you're the 1998 to 2002 Rangers with over the hill and overpaid stars.

OR

You trade one or both now for someone valuable that helps this team win during this window. Either way, we're starting the cycle again in 4 or 5 years that we just went through from 2017-2019, so may as well make the most of it while Kreider, Panarin, Shesterkin, Zib, Trouba, and Fox are all in their primes.

It's fine to keep Lafreniere and Kakko and let them develop if the idea was to force feed them 20 minutes a night in all situations if the Rangers committed to a full rebuild whilst continuing to build the team through high picks. They didn't though. Making the moves to acquire the core blunted the rebuild and turned it into a retool very quickly. Being Edmonton or Buffalo perpetually rebuilding isn't fun either, though.

It just sucks. The Rangers would be among the Cup favorites right now with Lundell and Zegras on the roster instead of Lafreniere and Kakko. Even when the Rangers win the draft lottery, they lose.

So the goal for a coach is to win each individual game. The goal for a GM is to win a cup over a period of years.
Drury should be fired into the sun if he traded laf or kakko. its one thing to have a top 2 talent bust, its another to trade them too early to win A SINGLE CUP before they hit their prime.

Drury isnt pigenholed into anything, as you said he's not responsible for those deals nor does he have any obligation to win a cup this year specifically.
The rangers have 2 windows, 1 that's started now, and goes for the next 2-3 years and will go as far as panarin and mika take them. They have a potential second window as kakko and laf hit their primes.
This second window will be far larger and the more important one. Selling now to maximize a 2 year window is the most short sighted thing i can think of.

This isn't 2014 with an aging goaltender and team. This is a team thats the 5th youngest in the league.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

@IDvsEGO answered you, and that means mckegg isn't in the lineup with blais out and barron in the minors, and it still doesnt take into consideration that drury is going to add more to this lineup.

You are complaining to complain at this point. You are acting like mckegg is a staple to this roster when his ice time is dropping and he is only here bc of injuries.

I'm acting like that because of Gerard "Loyal to his guys" Gallant. I guess we'll see what happens but my bet is that when Chytil and Kakko are back McKegg is going to be comfortably on that fouth line eating up space. Blais isn't a player on this team right now and won't be until next year, so using him as your "we're still not healthy" is disingenuous.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I dont have a problem with that.
Reaves does need the occasional off day, but yes.
The other option is that we start calling some kids up once we start locking up the playoff positioning. I'd like to see pajunami and/or cullye get a shot to spark something before the playoffs.
Barron was decent earlier but then stunk vs carolina.

I'd love to see those guys play. The coach, on the other hand, couldn't care less about giving those guys a shot.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

For sure.

Doing what "The Letter" set out to do isn't exactly fun either and is a good way to become Edmonton or Buffalo. I'd rather that the Rangers did what they ended up doing and shipped out pieces of the old core that weren't cutting it anymore and started to rebuild depth in the prospect pool again with those acquired pieces and used others to retool and formulate a new core through some shrewd trades and UFA signings. There are things I disagreed with like trading McDonagh (I would have kept him), but others were for the best (Stepan trade and Zucc trade).

We see it with the area's football teams. The Jets and Giants have been perpetually rebuilding for the past decade with just about nothing to show for it. Tearing it down to the studs every 5 years is a great way to build angst among a fanbase. Not that 4 Cups in 80 years is something to be proud of either...

I hear your point generally but just don’t see the risk of ever becoming Buffalo/Edmonton as being a real thing in NY. Panarin, Adam Fox, Kevin Hayes, buyout payments, etc are advantages NY has that will always prevent them from falling into that trap.

However I think there is a pretty big distinction that the ultra successful teams in this decade (Pens, Hawks, Tampa to name a few) started with building a culture and a team AROUND their top kids. The top prospects came first, then pieces were added to build on the strengths of those prospects.

They didn’t try to incorporate top prospects into an existing structure of veterans (who have won nothing). Keep the culture of stale veteran leadership intact and force the top prospects to fit in and “come along slowly.” No one else that I can think of did things that way.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I'm acting like that because of Gerard "Loyal to his guys" Gallant. I guess we'll see what happens but my bet is that when Chytil and Kakko are back McKegg is going to be comfortably on that fouth line eating up space. Blais isn't a player on this team right now and won't be until next year, so using him as your "we're still not healthy" is disingenuous.

And yet to start the season mckegg was firmly in the healthy scratch category and only got in because reaves got injured.
Rooney and hunt are far better than mckegg and gallant knows it. Goodrow is 100% a much better player when forced down to the 4th.
The Gallant gives all his players a chance to win / lose spots. He is a players coach but first and foremost the player needs to actually produce for him to continue giving them ice time. The only one on the 4th that I cant see being moved as a healthy scratch is Rooney.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I'd love to see those guys play. The coach, on the other hand, couldn't care less about giving those guys a shot.

Gallant plays the players he has. Do I love some of his ice time distribution? not really. Do we win more than we ever did under quinn, absolutely.

 

[I Eat Crow]

So the goal for a coach is to win each individual game. The goal for a GM is to win a cup over a period of years.
Drury should be fired into the sun if he traded laf or kakko. its one thing to have a top 2 talent bust, its another to trade them too early to win A SINGLE CUP before they hit their prime.

Drury isnt pigenholed into anything, as you said he's not responsible for those deals nor does he have any obligation to win a cup this year specifically.
The rangers have 2 windows, 1 that's started now, and goes for the next 2-3 years and will go as far as panarin and mika take them. They have a potential second window as kakko and laf hit their primes.
This second window will be far larger and the more important one. Selling now to maximize a 2 year window is the most short sighted thing i can think of.

This isn't 2014 with an aging goaltender and team. This is a team thats the 5th youngest in the league.

And what happens when Lafreniere and Kakko fall short of their draft day expectations?

You're right back at square one anyway.

NHL GM's don't think more than 1 or 2 years down the line in terms of their contention windows and whether they're in one or not. It's impossible to project where a team is going to be 2 or more years away from now. If your team is in a situation where they can win now with lots of the current pieces in their prime now and in the following 1-2 years, I've got news for you. They're going to try to win when they're best chance of winning is going to come about. They're not going to care about trading a can of magic beans for the slight possibility of another contention window in 5 or 6 years. That's absolute nonsense.

 

[bleedblue94]

I'm acting like that because of Gerard "Loyal to his guys" Gallant. I guess we'll see what happens but my bet is that when Chytil and Kakko are back McKegg is going to be comfortably on that fouth line eating up space. Blais isn't a player on this team right now and won't be until next year, so using him as your "we're still not healthy" is disingenuous.

Like I said:

1. Has mckegg been in the lineup once while this team has been healthy? No.

2. Was mckegg sent off the main roster when certain players got healthy? Yes.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Gallant plays the players he has. Do I love some of his ice time distribution? not really. Do we win more than we ever did under quinn, absolutely.

He has had these players.

And I gotta be honest, I hated Quinn maybe the most out of anyone here. I don't think they'd be a much different team this year with Quinn at the helm as long as Kreider was scoring the way he is, Fox having another norris caliber season and Shesterkin having a Vezina caliber season. Nothing Gallant has done has made those players play like that.

 

[I Eat Crow]

I hear your point generally but just don’t see the risk of ever becoming Buffalo/Edmonton as being a real thing in NY. Panarin, Adam Fox, Kevin Hayes, buyout payments, etc are advantages NY has that will always prevent them from falling into that trap.

However I think there is a pretty big distinction that the ultra successful teams in this decade (Pens, Hawks, Tampa to name a few) started with building a culture and a team AROUND their top kids. The top prospects came first, then pieces were added to build on the strengths of those prospects.

They didn’t try to incorporate top prospects into an existing structure of veterans (who have won nothing). Keep the culture of stale veteran leadership intact and force the top prospects to fit in and “come along slowly.” No one else that I can think of did things that way.

The time to add veteran players was after Kakko and Lafreniere were added to the fold, not before.

Now you have two high draft picks playing limited roles as is on the team with nothing to show for it. Letting Lafreniere play in Juniors or Europe with the COVID pandemic and letting Kakko play in Finland for another year after he was drafted if they weren't going to be the go to guys from the get go would have been much, much more beneficial for their development.

 

[IDvsEGO]

And what happens when Lafreniere and Kakko fall short of their draft day expectations?

You're right back at square one anyway.

NHL GM's don't think more than 1 or 2 years down the line in terms of their contention windows and whether they're in one or not. It's impossible to project where a team is going to be 2 or more years away from now. If your team is in a situation where they can win now with lots of the current pieces in their prime now and in the following 1-2 years, I've got news for you. They're going to try to win when they're best chance of winning is going to come about. They're not going to care about trading a can of magic beans for the slight possibility of another contention window in 5 or 6 years. That's absolute nonsense.

So the mystery box could be anything including a boat.
Theres entirely a sunk cost falacy, in which you continue developing something that fails for too long. 2 years for 18 year-20 year old NHL players is not "too long". IF Laf and Kakko fail to develop will that second window entirely crash? Maybe not as they wont have superstar level contracts and we can open up potential cap space, but if we sell on them now, and fail to win a cup in this immediate window, does our 4-8 year window slam shut? Very likely.

 

[egelband]

I wouldn’t mind Kessel on a line with Zib and Kreider then you look to add more of a two-way RW for the Panarin-Strome line. Someone like Pavelski would be ideal but the cost might be too high. I hate doing projected line ups but...

Kreider-Zib-Kessel
Panarin-Strome-Pavelski
Laff-Goodrow-Kakko

I’d roll with that into the playoffs.

This seems like the right way to go. Unless there’s some amazing deal out there for a longterm piece, the Rangers should probably be after the top expiring deal players. Maybe a first and a prospect like Cuylle for Pavelski and a second and maybe Hajek for Kessel.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

The time to add veteran players was after Kakko and Lafreniere were added to the fold, not before.

Now you have two high draft picks playing limited roles as is on the team with nothing to show for it. Letting Lafreniere play in Juniors or Europe with the COVID pandemic and letting Kakko play in Finland for another year after he was drafted if they weren't going to be the go to guys from the get go would have been much, much more beneficial for their development.

I agree completely. I think we are largely in the same page, maybe talking past each other a bit.

I guess you are coming at it from, they made their bed and if they are going to try to win with the current veteran group, might as well go all in.

I can certainly see the argument, just would be personally tough to stomach.