Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXXIV

[Pawnee Rangers]

I blame David Quinn.

I don't think enough people have made this very astute connection.

 

[CupSeeker]

Rumor is he joined briefly but Mas054 kept spamming his inbox with demands that he play Laff on the first and drop Kreider down to the 3rd.

That's actually a great idea.

 

[smoneil]

Interesting Gallant doesn't seem to think there's a big difference between 8, 10, 12, 15 minutes of ice time when it comes to developing a young player. It's like he's never even read an HFB post.

The issue isn't that he is doing the opposite of what WE would do. The issue is that he (and Quinn before him) is doing the opposite of what just about every coach of every "direct to the NHL" top draft pick has done over the last 20+ years. I'm on "team patience" but if this doesn't work, all the heads should roll (you don't get to be smarter than everyone else in the game if your different approach doesn't work).

 

[RGY]

Jeff Carter signs a 2 year extension in Pitt, 3.125AAV. Full no move.

I always liked Jeff Carter

 

[leetch99]

My only concern is how welcomed back will he be in the locker room. I don't know the answer.

Good chance the right wingers might not be that fond on him . The other key guys are on fat contracts already like Kreider-Panarin-Zibs-Reaves-Goodrow . It won't hurt Laf or Rooney ....so likely just Hunt -Barron the AH yo-yo-KK-Chytil and McKegg . So....should not be a huge deal actually if he can get Kreider on his side to smooth things in the room if there ever was a beef .

 

[kovazub94]

Interesting Gallant doesn't seem to think there's a big difference between 8, 10, 12, 15 minutes of ice time when it comes to developing a young player. It's like he's never even read an HFB post.

He's probably on ignore

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

The issue isn't that he is doing the opposite of what WE would do. The issue is that he (and Quinn before him) is doing the opposite of what just about every coach of every "direct to the NHL" top draft pick has done over the last 20+ years. I'm on "team patience" but if this doesn't work, all the heads should roll (you don't get to be smarter than everyone else in the game if your different approach doesn't work).

I have no way of knowing what another coach would do. But we have two vastly different head coaches, and two general managers allowing it, handling him pretty much the same way. I'm going to go ahead and give Gallant the benefit of the doubt and remain patient and optimistic. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to watching THE ENTIRE TEAM in the playoffs in a few months. I want spring time hockey. I need it. I want to come home from work, put the pregame on while it's still light out, open the windows ,get good and drunk and curse at Ryan Strome.

 

[smoneil]

The concept that you can have a room full of people who all love each other is fantasy land. Just like most professions you have to deal with people in your workplace you don't really like, but you still make it work, hockey locker rooms can be like that too.

You of course cannot have the Antonio Brown in there causing ridiculous distractions, but saying every immature kid is a problem for the locker room or every time you play a skilled kid above a grizzled veteran is a problem, is just nonsense. These are the things people are paid to get over.

Literally, the only two things that are different about the Antonio Brown situation and the Kravtsov situation are that Brown did his walk out in the middle of a game (after he'd been told he was getting cut) and that Brown, unlike Kravtsov, had actually accomplished something in his career.

I'd forgotten that you were one of the "Krav was 100% right and should have been handed a spot he didn't earn" crowd. It makes the rest of your comments here make more sense. The vibe in the room is very important. They don't have to love each other, but they 100% need to trust each other and believe that they all want the same thing. A "me first" player, especially a younger one who hasn't earned squat yet, is going to be unpopular in that room.

 

[Synergy27]

There's too much concern about the locker room. These are grown men and professionals.

I don’t mean to come off as harsh, but these are the words of an inexperienced person. Human factors are critical. There is a real reason why some teams are more than the sum of their parts.

 

[kovazub94]

I blame David Quinn.

It's Quinn's body inside Gallant's skin. Explains the face...

 

[smoneil]

I have no way of knowing what another coach would do. But we have two vastly different head coaches, and two general managers allowing it, handling him pretty much the same way. I'm going to go ahead and give Gallant the benefit of the doubt and remain patient and optimistic. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to watching THE ENTIRE TEAM in the playoffs in a few months. I want spring time hockey. I need it. I want to come home from work, put the pregame on while it's still light out, open the windows ,get good and drunk and curse at Ryan Strome.

Oh, it's 100% a team philosophy at this point. They have clearly decided that they want to win now and the the kids will still develop without minutes. We absolutely know what another franchise would do, because every year there are a couple of guys drafted at the top of the draft, and almost all of them get heavy minutes if they go directly to the NHL. The Rangers are rolling the dice that the kids will develop just as well, but at a slower pace, getting bottom minutes on a winning team. I cling to optimism, but again, if they are wrong? Everyone in the franchise who lobbied for that approach needs to be canned, because it was very much an unheard of approach to player development.

I want spring time hockey as well, but I also remember, not THAT long ago, when we had spring time hockey just about every year, but could never get over the hump because we never got elite, "top of the draft" talent. Now we have that, but we seem to be in such a rush to get back to where we were that we are gambling with that top talent's development. All I'm saying is that if that gamble goes wrong, the team needs to own up to its mistake. If it goes right? Hell, that may lead to a whole new approach to developing top talent (particularly as it would keep their contracts lower in the early stages of their careers). It's a fascinating thing to watch unfold, but if it were me? Getting top two draft picks (hell, top 5) for the first time since the O6 days? That's not a gamble I would make.

 

[Synergy27]

The issue isn't that he is doing the opposite of what WE would do. The issue is that he (and Quinn before him) is doing the opposite of what just about every coach of every "direct to the NHL" top draft pick has done over the last 20+ years. I'm on "team patience" but if this doesn't work, all the heads should roll (you don't get to be smarter than everyone else in the game if your different approach doesn't work).

I in no way want to defend the organization because I also think something is very wrong with our forward development. That said, while I don’t really buy the COVID excuse, the lottery wins really were unprecedented. How many top 2 picks have ever gone to a team with transcendent talents ahead of them on the depth chart?

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Oh, it's 100% a team philosophy at this point. They have clearly decided that they want to win now and the the kids will still develop without minutes. We absolutely know what another franchise would do, because every year there are a couple of guys drafted at the top of the draft, and almost all of them get heavy minutes if they go directly to the NHL. The Rangers are rolling the dice that the kids will develop just as well, but at a slower pace, getting bottom minutes on a winning team. I cling to optimism, but again, if they are wrong? Everyone in the franchise who lobbied for that approach needs to be canned, because it was very much an unheard of approach to player development.

I want spring time hockey as well, but I also remember, not THAT long ago, when we had spring time hockey just about every year, but could never get over the hump because we never got elite, "top of the draft" talent. Now we have that, but we seem to be in such a rush to get back to where we were that we are gambling with that top talent's development. All I'm saying is that if that gamble goes wrong, the team needs to own up to its mistake. If it goes right? Hell, that may lead to a whole new approach to developing top talent (particularly as it would keep their contracts lower in the early stages of their careers). It's a fascinating thing to watch unfold, but if it were me? Getting top two draft picks (hell, top 5) for the first time since the O6 days? That's not a gamble I would make.

I'm not so sure they think what they're doing is a gamble, nor do they think Laff is at some inflection point in his career where it's a make or break season. Nor am I going to demote the league's leading scorer to third line and break up our top line just so a kid can feel better about himself. Laff will be fine. He's developing every day in practice and in games.

Nothing this team has done this season screams they're in a rush, but they're winning a lot, so why not keep what's working. There are no guarantees in life, I could wake up tomorrow, walk out my door and have an anvil dropped on my head or my Acme Rocket could malfunction. I think the coach deserves the opportunity to construct the lineup he feels gives him the best change to win. Which, includes Laff. Also, those teams from years back never had a Panarin or Fox.

 

[McRanger92]

to me you are identifying what we really have in the system all together, and if we start tearing through the group you listed than we are really starting to rip the guts out of our prospect system/assets that were meant to backfill the big contracts we will have to give to our young players as they age

Is the bolded really a pressing issue? Cap teams in a Cup window will do everything they can to squeeze young players salaries, especially ones who haven't produced.

 

[McRanger92]

Turk calls Schneider a mini Trouba.

He isn't going anywhere so might as well remove him from any trade thoughts...

Good. I love Schneider's game. Very calm in the d-zone and looks to rip it with the wrist shot in the O-zone, already a big part of this team's future imo.

 

[smoneil]

I in no way want to defend the organization because I also think something is very wrong with our forward development. That said, while I don’t really buy the COVID excuse, the lottery wins really were unprecedented. How many top 2 picks have ever gone to a team with transcendent talents ahead of them on the depth chart?

I get that, but my philosophy is that if you can't give your top picks top minutes, then they should get those minutes in a lesser league. Give them their 9 games, but then give them a list of things to work on and send them down. I get that Laf had nothing left to prove in the Q, but if he's down there working on his skating technique? Working on learning to play RW? That's still valuable. Same with Chytil. How many more faceoffs would he have taken playing 1st line minutes in Hartford rather than 4th line minutes here? How much better would his defense be playing PK1 in Hartford over not at all here?

The organization--likely due to the unprecedented nature that you mentioned--has made a conscious choice that a lesser minutes at a higher level will result in better, albeit slower, development. I hope they are right, but I have concerns.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Gallant said today that he didn't see playing Laffy less minutes as detrimental to his development. There are a lot of ways he could have answered/angled on this question, but when he said he thinks 8 minutes is the same as 12 minutes and 15 minutes of icetime, that is absolute horseshit. A 50% decrease in ice time vs the top players is obviously going to detriment his growth. You don't get into the flow of the game the same way and on a season, if he's missing 4-5 minutes a game, it's easy to extrapolate how much time he's missing vs other rookies on a season. I know there is no easy answer, as the 2 LW's ahead of him are: 1. the leagues leading goal scorer, 2. Artemi Panarin...but Gallant has to answer that question better.

 

[mas0764]

Literally, the only two things that are different about the Antonio Brown situation and the Kravtsov situation are that Brown did his walk out in the middle of a game (after he'd been told he was getting cut) and that Brown, unlike Kravtsov, had actually accomplished something in his career.

I'd forgotten that you were one of the "Krav was 100% right and should have been handed a spot he didn't earn" crowd. It makes the rest of your comments here make more sense. The vibe in the room is very important. They don't have to love each other, but they 100% need to trust each other and believe that they all want the same thing. A "me first" player, especially a younger one who hasn't earned squat yet, is going to be unpopular in that room.

You did not “forget,” that, because it is untrue. I have never ever said Kravtsov was not to blame. The team was also to blame, and some small minded people are unable to differentiate those two arguments.

And insinuating Kravtsov is just like Antonio Brown is patently ridiculous.

 

[mas0764]

I don’t mean to come off as harsh, but these are the words of an inexperienced person. Human factors are critical. There is a real reason why some teams are more than the sum of their parts.

I don’t mean to come off as harsh, but these are the words of someone who thinks their marginally related experience is somehow representative of everyone else’s reality.

 

[smoneil]

I'm not so sure they think what they're doing is a gamble, nor do they think Laff is at some inflection point in his career where it's a make or break season. Nor am I going to demote the league's leading scorer to third line and break up our top line just so a kid can feel better about himself. Laff will be fine. He's developing every day in practice and in games.

Nothing this team has done this season screams they're in a rush, but they're winning a lot, so why not keep what's working. There are no guarantees in life, I could wake up tomorrow, walk out my door and have an anvil dropped on my head or my Acme Rocket could malfunction. I think the coach deserves the opportunity to construct the lineup he feels gives him the best change to win. Which, includes Laff. Also, those teams from years back never had a Panarin or Fox.

They didn't, but they had much better depth. This is, effectively, a one and a half line team that lives and dies on the power play. What happens when (as is often the case) the officials swallow their whistles in the playoffs?

And I get that the team isn't concerned. Honestly, that's the part that is the most frustrating. Their two prized prospects are putting up historically-bad D+2 and D+3 seasons. There should be concern there. And I'm sorry, but Laf getting 8 or 9 minutes a night with 4th liners? He's not a crucial element of this current lineup. You could replace Laf with most 4th liners and get about the same from them this season. Sending Laf down--as he's been getting used this season--would do nothing to the team's chances of success.

Like I said--I hope the kids pan out and the team's approach is vindicated. But there have been few to no signs of that thus far. If both players do bust out, that would be an epic fail, as the odds of successive top 2 picks busting are astronomical (I broke down ~10 years worth of top 5 picks in a recent thread, and literally it had never happened). If they fail, it's on the team and their "slow play" development gamble.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

They didn't, but they had much better depth. This is, effectively, a one and a half line team that lives and dies on the power play. What happens when (as is often the case) the officials swallow their whistles in the playoffs?

And I get that the team isn't concerned. Honestly, that's the part that is the most frustrating. Their two prized prospects are putting up historically-bad D+2 and D+3 seasons. There should be concern there. And I'm sorry, but Laf getting 8 or 9 minutes a night with 4th liners? He's not a crucial element of this current lineup. You could replace Laf with most 4th liners and get about the same from them this season. Sending Laf down--as he's been getting used this season--would do nothing to the team's chances of success.

Like I said--I hope the kids pan out and the team's approach is vindicated. But there have been few to no signs of that thus far. If both players do bust out, that would be an epic fail, as the odds of successive top 2 picks busting are astronomical (I broke down ~10 years worth of top 5 picks in a recent thread, and literally it had never happened). If they fail, it's on the team and their "slow play" development gamble.

It's all gonna be ok. I promise you. Enjoy the next few months.

 

[smoneil]

You did not “forget,” that, because it is untrue. I have never ever said Kravtsov was not to blame. The team was also to blame, and some small minded people are unable to differentiate those two arguments.

And insinuating Kravtsov is just like Antonio Brown is patently ridiculous.

You were the one who liked to add things like "he shouldn't have left" followed by a "but" and then several paragraphs about how the team screwed him over by not handing him something other players had earned, right? That's the same thing as saying he's not to blame. You can't simultaneously see the same act (walking out on the team) as "wrong" AND "righteous/justified."


As for Antonio Brown--Both walked out on their team in a petulant fit. How is that not similar?

 

[smoneil]

It's all gonna be ok. I promise you. Enjoy the next few months.

Don't patronize me, kid. I'm making calm, rational arguments. Engage with the points I'm raising. If you want to turn it into a back and forth insult battle, take it to the play-ground.

 

[alkurtz]

They really aren’t. A big thing that separates pro athletes from normal joes aside from the physical talent is the mentality.

Disagree, not when it comes to interpersonnel relations.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Don't patronize me, kid. I'm making calm, rational arguments. Engage with the points I'm raising. If you want to turn it into a back and forth insult battle, take it to the play-ground.

Wasn't patronizing, wasn't insulting, wasn't remotely looking to make it an insult battle. I agree with most of your points. But this stuff is beyond our control. And the way I see it, you can either worry about stuff or enjoy the ride. But you do you.