Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIII

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Deflecting and doesn't answer the question.

You're using outliers (Pittsburgh, with how many top 5 draft picks in how many years and one, arguably two, generational players and Chicago hitting the jackpot on their draft picks) and throwing out words like "window" and speculating about how many years away that will be.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm wondering what qualifies this team, or any team, to be in their "window". Which teams would you say, right now, are in their window? Tampa? Washington? Nashville? Boston? San Jose?

I used Vegas because they kind of fly in the face of the "top 2" homegrown argument

I used the Islanders, not because I aspire the Rangers to be like them, but because they're in a position that nobody foresaw at the beginning of this season. I honestly don't think their cast of characters is all that much better than ours.

You can’t use Vegas, we have no way to replicate what they did. An expansion draft just isn’t in the cards here.

I thought the Isles were a bubble playoff team, but this post was not addressed to me so I’ll leave this one be. I will say that I’d expect pretty Significant regression from them next year unless they make some adds. That team is a first round exit waiting to happen as is.
 
This is like a once in a lifetime rebuild chance, literally. They should probably see it through.

For real.

I understand the skepticism about this team staying away from UFA’s because that’s not how they usually operate, but they’ve also never done what they’re doing now.

We’re in uncharted territory.
 
It`s not an ideal rebuild @Ola - we need some some years to build a team in the draft. Panarin only take a cap hit and we might end up missing out a young elite player in the 2020 draft? No thanks! Let the patience rebuild continue! :)
 
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The Panarin wishcasting in here from some is hilarious.

Mark Stone, in a no bidding war, tax free situation landed a 9.5 million dollar a year deal. It’s not hard to connect the dots here.

When athletes leave money on the table, the discount provided to the team that wins their services is usually pretty small. Shattenkirk’s AAV is around where most thought it’d be, they got a break on the term.

And he’s a guy who was desperate to be here. Panarin May like New York, but he also likes Beaches.
 
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Where is the logic in this? I don't understand, please help me, because lots of people keep telling me that signing a big free agent means we suddenly give up on our rebuild.

If we sign him, does it mean we will stop trading expiring assets for prospects and draft capital? Does it mean we will suddenly call up all of our young guns and stunt their development? Will Gorton suddenly turn around and trade all the picks we've collected for rentals? Should we have all of our young prospects surrounded by plugs who are just here to collect a paycheck for a year or two then move on? What kind of environment do you think that would create for them? (See; Edmonton, Buffalo, Arizona aka perpetual darkness). Most of those teams have a superstar and yet somehow they still continue to suck, why is that? I thought if you have a big star (especially on a big contract), then your team won't suck or be rebuilding anymore. Signing an elite talent to a long contract gives our rookies some stability, someone for the coach to lean on a bit more, and something for the fans to enjoy while the team sucks nuts.

Some members of this community have also noted that the notion of Panarin signing here for a reasonable contract is absurd. "Wont accept anything less than ~12 million" "Market will offer him way more hes never comin here lol" . When someone makes a rebuttal to that they just scoff and say **** like "lol ur delusional bro NEVER GONNA HAPPEN". Glad you're here to show us how your opinion is the only correct one and everyone else should shut up (not talking about you here OP, just a select few posters who will definitely know who they are). Panarin has stated publicly he wants to go somewhere his wife would be happy, and NYR seems to be at the top of the list. I think if he ends up signing here he will be leaving more money on the table elsewhere, and he will be here because he wants to be a Ranger.

I had a different post but I had no sleep (not a second) and played hockey and pretty much deleted it. So bear with me I am not sure I am going to make sense at the moment. lol

I don't want Panarin for a number of reasons but the main one is a philisophiocal one. This rebuild is pretty much a total tear down save for like 4-5 main roster players that more than likely aren't going anywhere. We can probably argue them but to me they are Hank, Zbad, ADA, Kreider and Skjei. That's an ok start to a team but a whole more is needed, LDO.

Gorton sent a letter out to be ready for penetration and it's going to hurt. So to follow the letter he's subsequently sold off all the short term solid assets the Rangers had to get a ton of high end draft picks. That's rebuilding, not ripping it apart but close enough. I am not telling you anything you don't know. That's a pretty strong message to the fanbase, we are starting over, tearing it down and building a homegrown core and start with a solid foundation that's going to take several years at the very least.

Now after just one lousy year, because everyone gets antsy and impatient, you ( not you in particular) want Gorton to spend 12-13 million on one player to accelerate things. That's a really mixed message, a total 180 in philosophy and psychology. What do you think the 99.99999 percent of the fanbase that doesn't spend their time on various Rangers fan forums is going to think? What's going to happen to Gorton, Quinn and everyone else when the Rangers suck total ass with Panarin for 1 or 2 more years? What's going to happen when the organization reads the tea leaves and gets impatient because the court of public opinion turns on them big time?

Do you honestly think it will be status quo? The Fo's message will still be "It's a rebuild people it takes time."? One move begets other similar moves and pretty soon everything gets muddled. Will the kids still get the same patience and development process they would have gotten in there was no signing. Do the Rangers try and get their NCAA players into the fold too fast where another year would have been better for their development? Will it change their larger philosophy with regard to the kids? I can see where it may.

It's a silly way to do a rebuild. Stick to the plan and a coherent philosophy. There's a line from the Karate Kid that works here in my opinion, walk one side of the road, you're ok, walk the other side of the road and you will be fine as well, play in the middle of the road you get squished.

Frankly, I don't care too much about Buffalo, Edmonton or Arizona. I don't think they have much to do with regard to the Rangers. Signing one player to a huge contract doesn't bring stability. It brings a lot of questions, a lot of concerns in my opinion. It opens up a can of worms that's not needed.

As far as Panarin not giving a discount I have this rebuttal. The Rangers are going to have to bid against some veritable tax haven teams, like the Panthers, who are in close proximity to a sizable Russian community. If you think he's coming to New York for a lesser or equal contract than what he would be offered by the Panthers than Panarin is an idiot or his agent failed in his fiduciary responsibility or both. The Rangers are going to have to add to make the contract more attractive to play in a high tax state and city. This isn't a native NY'er situation like Shatty that did what he had to do to play for the Rangers. As it is, the Rangers didn't want to really sign him and were all but forced to because of the sweetheart deal. Panarin is going to cost quite a bit to come here, quite a bit more than I want the Rangers spending on any one player at the moment.

I am content with a rebuild that way it is, methodical. In no way shape or form has it resembled anything like what the constantly named failures have done.
 
Deflecting and doesn't answer the question.

You're using outliers (Pittsburgh, with how many top 5 draft picks in how many years and one, arguably two, generational players and Chicago hitting the jackpot on their draft picks) and throwing out words like "window" and speculating about how many years away that will be.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm wondering what qualifies this team, or any team, to be in their "window". Which teams would you say, right now, are in their window? Tampa? Washington? Nashville? Boston? San Jose?

I used Vegas because they kind of fly in the face of the "top 2" homegrown argument

I used the Islanders, not because I aspire the Rangers to be like them, but because they're in a position that nobody foresaw at the beginning of this season. I honestly don't think their cast of characters is all that much better than ours.

I gotta be honest with you, I really hate using Vegas an example for much of anything right now. The whole process they went through is unique onto itself, and I'm not totally sure if they haven't already peaked.

But I think the outliers you're referring to are exactly my point. They aren't the norm. So if it still took them several years, and that was with hitting the jackpot or getting two generational talents, what does that say for us? Even if the Rangers matched them, best case scenario, you're still looking at about 2023. I'd be be curious to see a blueprint for coming in under that timetable.

As for windows, yeah I'd say some of those teams are in their window or getting close --- specifically Tampa, Nashville, Winnipeg, Toronto, etc. That's not to say all of them don't have their share of flaws that could undermine their efforts, but I generally view them as teams who have a better than average chance at being in the final four, or playing for the cup. They're usually able to maintain that level over a several season span, and generally a team that has a competitive mix that on any given night is likely to beat more teams than it loses to. And that's the difference between building a team like Nashville and building a team like the Islanders. Like Vegas, I don't know if the Islanders are sustainable.

So that's a "rough" description, because I don't think there's an exact formula to define window. But it's also one of those weird things that you tend to know it and when you see it.

But, regardless of how you define it, or how they get there, you'd be hard pressed to find a team that goes from where the Rangers are now, with players the ages they are now, and gets to where some of the more optimistic projections on here have them, in the time period being proposed as a justification for Panarin. Literally, at best, a deep dive would reveal the Rangers going from this to a contender in anything less than 4 years would be extremely rare. And once you start getting past that, you're getting into that territory that we talked about earlier.
 
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The Rangers could do something similar to Vegas if the Panthers trade them Barkov as a sweetener for taking on Hoffman's contract. That way they will have the money to sign Bob and panarin.
 
The Panarin wishcasting in here from some is hilarious.

Mark Stone, in a no bidding war, tax free situation landed a 9.5 million dollar a year deal. It’s not hard to connect the dots here.

When athletes leave money on the table, the discount provided to the team that wins their services is usually pretty small. Shattenkirk’s AAV is around where most thought it’d be, they got a break on the term.

And he’s a guy who was desperate to be here. Panarin May like New York, but he also likes Beaches.

It's funny you use the word wishcasting, because some of the proposals really require a pretty leap of faith. You can tell that people really want it and are passionate about it, and that's admirable. But the scenarios always seemed so forced.
 
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I wouldn't do it for $11 million. And maybe that's his demand and I'd walk away. In fact with this cap, I think Lundqvist money is the max you go with anyone that's not a legit franchise player. (And I think everyone agrees Panarin - while excellent - is not a franchise player; He's a Robin on a contending team).

That's the thing, we're not talking about $8 million for 4 years. We're likely going to be looking at $11 million, with a movement clause, for 6+ years.

Even if the Rangers do one of the greatest and quickest turnarounds in league history, his peak years are still going to be when the team isn't likely to be as good.

And I already know the response, "But your speculating, you don't know that. You're guessing."

Truth be told, that response is correct. I am speculating and I am guessing. But I'm doing it off league history, not what I want to happen. So yes, it might not happen, but that's not where the smart money is.
 
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If the Rangers had kept the 17-18 team together as much possible, would they be a playoff team?
I'm talking, they kept:

-Stepan, McD, Hayes, etc
 
That's the thing, we're not talking about $8 million for 4 years. We're likely going to be looking at $11 million, with a movement clause, for 6+ years.

Even if the Rangers do one of the greatest and quickest turnarounds in league history, his peak years are still going to be when the team isn't likely to be as good.

And I already know the response, "But your speculating, you don't know that. You're guessing."

Truth be told, that response is correct. I am speculating and I am guessing. But I'm doing it off league history, not what I want to happen. So yes, it might not happen, but that's not where the smart money is.
Money aside, I think it’s as close as a lock that a player of his caliber essentially forcing his way to a place he wants to be, geographically, is going to make certain he’s getting a NMC on a long term deal
 
If the Rangers had kept the 17-18 team together as much possible, would they be a playoff team?
I'm talking, they kept:

-Stepan, McD, Hayes, etc
I don’t think it would work cap wise anyway, but even disregarding that they’d probably be a bubble team on the outside looking in, Mika most likely wouldn’t be a PPG player because he wouldn’t be playing as much as he does now in the situations he does, Kreider probably has less offensive totals too, defense still wouldn’t be all that good etc etc
 
Money aside, I think it’s as close as a lock that a player of his caliber essentially forcing his way to a place he wants to be, geographically, is going to make certain he’s getting a NMC on a long term deal

I feel like we keep projecting low on some of these UFA contracts.

When people talked about Hayes, the years and the movement clause tended to get glossed over, and they're likely to be essential components of the deal.

When we talk about Kreider, I feel like we're coming in low on the salary and again pushing a movement clause to a side conversation.

With Panarin, we're talking about close to a max contract, with a movement clause.

And we're talking about these things during a time period where we're at least pretty sure that next year is going to suck as well, and that even if we climb into the playoffs the following year, it's still going to be a very young team that is finding itself.

I just don't think you can compartmentalize these different factors.
 
I have an idea.

Why don’t we save that massive 11/7 contract w a clause for the Star we draft? Have we drafted him yet? Maybe. But if not we have this draft and AT LEAST next years.

Let’s give HIM that contract.
 
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That's the thing, we're not talking about $8 million for 4 years. We're likely going to be looking at $11 million, with a movement clause, for 6+ years.
I think that is what people are not paying attention to. Panarin by himself would not make a material difference on this team right now. So for argument's sake, let's say that the Rangers are not ready to start to compete in two years. That's 2021-2023. And would just be to start to compete. It will probably be another few years out until they can truly be thought of as contenders. At that point, they are paying Panarin for he last 3 years of his 7 year deal. Panarin then will not be the same as Panarin now. And people will be calling for him to be traded at all costs as his deal is rife with NMC/NTC.
 
I think the issue is you really have two camps that exist on here and they are so far apart, there is little to no space for agreement:

Camp 1: Wants to win a cup at any cost possible. Doesn't care if we burn down the entire organization for a few years. Would be totally cool with basically forfeiting games for 2-3 years to get a shot at a generational player or two.

Camp 2: Wants to win a cup, but also wants to enjoy watching a competative team and believe in the mantra 'once you're in anything can happen.' These people aren't cool with forfeiture of season and are happy to sell some assets, but still want to look at the here and now and hope to 'rebuild on the fly' so that they don't have to watch dumpster fire teams.

Unfortunately, I don't see much room to meet in the middle. I'm in camp 1 and all I want to see is one cup in my life that I remember. I couldn't care less if we forfeit the next 10 seasons to get a cup in season 11. My entire life this team has basically rebuilt on the fly. So I want to try something extreme and new.

I can understand why camp 2 won't agree with me, though, because they love watching the team compete on a nightly basis and hate when a team is essentially built to lose in hopes that their lottery ticket hits.
 
If the Rangers had kept the 17-18 team together as much possible, would they be a playoff team?
I'm talking, they kept:

-Stepan, McD, Hayes, etc
No.

Stepan is declining. McD rebounded in Tampa(I dont think he does here), Hayes would be the 3C and probably doesnt have a single season like the one hes having now..
 
Camp 1: Wants to win a cup at any cost possible. Doesn't care if we burn down the entire organization for a few years. Would be totally cool with basically forfeiting games for 2-3 years to get a shot at a generational player or two.
Not exactly. At least not to me. I do not want Kreider and Mika traded. But I also understand that if a Godfather offer comes to Gorton, then he is going to have to do what is in the best interest of the future of the franchise.

I do understand that with a rebuild comes a few years of the suck factor. That does not mean forfeit. That means you try hard. And if that results in a loss, so be it. But effort has to be there. And for the most part. I think that is what has been happening.
 
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The Rangers could do something similar to Vegas if the Panthers trade them Barkov as a sweetener for taking on Hoffman's contract. That way they will have the money to sign Bob and panarin.
I’m this scenario, I would prefer they trade Shattenkirk and Smith for Henri Jokiharju and sign Panarin.
 
I think the issue is you really have two camps that exist on here and they are so far apart, there is little to no space for agreement:

Camp 1: Wants to win a cup at any cost possible. Doesn't care if we burn down the entire organization for a few years. Would be totally cool with basically forfeiting games for 2-3 years to get a shot at a generational player or two.

Camp 2: Wants to win a cup, but also wants to enjoy watching a competative team and believe in the mantra 'once you're in anything can happen.' These people aren't cool with forfeiture of season and are happy to sell some assets, but still want to look at the here and now and hope to 'rebuild on the fly' so that they don't have to watch dumpster fire teams.

Unfortunately, I don't see much room to meet in the middle. I'm in camp 1 and all I want to see is one cup in my life that I remember. I couldn't care less if we forfeit the next 10 seasons to get a cup in season 11. My entire life this team has basically rebuilt on the fly. So I want to try something extreme and new.

I can understand why camp 2 won't agree with me, though, because they love watching the team compete on a nightly basis and hate when a team is essentially built to lose in hopes that their lottery ticket hits.

It's funny, as we go through this rebuilding process, I notice my opinions on this team tend to reflect how I approach my personal and business life.

I tend to be more of a planner and a long-term goal setter. While setting those goals I tend to identify milestones. In business, I think tend to develop mini-strategies that amplify those key moments.

But all-in-all, my approach tends to be methodical and about having the resources to cover something (whenever possible).

I tend to be one of those people who prefers to do it right, but a little slower, rather than doing it faster but increasing the odds of major mistakes. I tend to use past experiences as a gauge as I plan the future. I prefer calculated risks. I'd rather lose the battle to win the war. I take strategic retreats if it means regrouping and coming at a problem more aggressively.

I consider timing to be one of the most important aspects of both my personal and professional life. Sometimes you can't help timing, and you have to be nimble enough to adjust your plans. But many times, especially in business, I find timing to be essential to the probability of success.

I'm not inherently a proponent of the belief that the cream will always rise to the top. I think life shows a lot of evidence in direct contraction to that. There's a number of factors involved in success, and timing is one of them. You alter that aspect, even slightly, and it has profound ramifications --- good and bad.

Right now I see two contradictory concepts. I see a young team, with promise, but a decent road ahead of itself to let that talent mature. On the other side, I see a push to do this faster and aggressively move forward. The timing just doesn't match for me, no matter how many times I pour over the years being proposed, or the players being included.

Is it speculation? Sure it is.

Let's not kid ourselves, 80 percent of what we do on here is speculation. We speculate on moves, coaching decisions, projections, declines, results, contracts, drafting, and a million other things. Hell, once those moments come to pass we start speculating on why they occurred, what the thought process was, how it got to that point, and other considerations.

But there's two kinds of speculating. There's the speculating that takes into account precedent and evidence of similar situations, and there's the speculating based on what we want to see happen. Sometimes those things align, sometimes they don't.

Panarin presents a very interesting target. He's talented, he's in his 20s, and he addresses a need. But I think the push for him comes more from a place of passion and desire, then from a place where it seems like a natural fit. There's a lot of "Yeah, but..." responses when trying to make it plausible. I've been on these boards for 20 years and I've often found that the odds of success tend to decrease every time we see the word "if" or the response, "Yeah, but...". Because usually those are indications that we need something to fall into place that either isn't happening at the time of that comment, or has a good probability of not happening. And in this case, we tend to have a good helping of both.
 
It's a bit early to think about the offseason and UFA's for me. Right now I'm just rooting hard for Tampa and Dallas to nab us some extra first rounders, and for Winnipeg to lose in the first 2, all while supporting the tank for a top 3 lottery pick.

That's where I'm at right now. After I see who we draft and what positions have strengthened I'll have stronger feelings on guys like Panarin.

Not likely to change my tune on Kreider though unless a colossus offer comes in.

Rangers never make it f***ing easy for us, even when we're not in the playoffs
 
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