Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIII

[effen]

If you say so, clearly no point in discussing as you won't be changing your mind. We have infinite players that we can play on ELCs if the cap requires it.

No, they don't. The math is exactly what ZFF laid out.

 

[effen]

Yeah good luck with that lmao.

Remember when Kovalchuk was gonna take a discount because he had a mansion in the area and loved Brighton Beach?

Karlsson will sign for less than Doughty when pigs f***ing fly. Lotta wishcasting going on.

 

[haohmaru]

Not sure how many teams people need to be beat over the head with this but once again: You do not build teams around Free Agents.

Considering the Rangers are among the youngest teams in the league, I don't see how signing a UFA like Panarin is "building around UFA's. That's a false narrative - and I'm not for signing Panarin.

 

[Gardner McKay]

And now for something completely different. I want to trade Pionk to Tampa for Callahan and an asset or two. Anyone agree? And what could we get?

No. I don't think anyone would agree with you unless it was a premier asset. Why do we want Callahan, why are we helping Tampa by taking his contract and, why are we trading Pionk?

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Considering the Rangers are among the youngest teams in the league, I don't see how signing a UFA like Panarin is "building around UFA's. That's a false narrative - and I'm not for signing Panarin.

Explain to me how paying one player 11 million dollars isn't building around that player? What is he for 11 million, a complimentary player? Along for the ride? Or someone expected to play up to an 11 million dollar contract?

 

[haohmaru]

Explain to me how paying one player 11 million dollars isn't building around that player? What is he for 11 million, a complimentary player? Along for the ride? Or someone expected to play up to an 11 million dollar contract?

Paying a single elite player a fair salary doesn't mean you're building around THAT player. It's a part of the puzzle. I see the pro Panarin side of things as the guy is young enough that he'll be a piece of the puzzle down the road. The Rangers will have had, what, 7 or 8 1st Round draft picks in the last three years after this year's draft? I think it's pretty clear what they're building around. Draft picks.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

No, they don't. The math is exactly what ZFF laid out.

The one point he brought up that does at least ring a bell for me is just how young this team stands to be after next year. If EK ever made it to UFA, I could see them really pushing for him (more so than Panarin, who I'm sure they'll kick the tires on before realizing that he won't be worth the 12 million a year it would take to get him.) From that stand point, I get it, but not enough to justify spending that much money.

I thought they did an OK job structuring things headed into this year (Plenty of middle age to just exiting middle age players to fill the gaps), though at least one of Hayes or Zuccarello should have been moved prior to the season starting. I think that they will be fine next year too but after that? Either they better have some massive leap forward from the young guys or they're going to have to trade for someone(s).

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Paying a single elite player a fair salary doesn't mean you're building around THAT player. It's a part of the puzzle. I see the pro Panarin side of things as the guy is young enough that he'll be a piece of the puzzle down the road. The Rangers will have had, what, 7 or 8 1st Round draft picks in the last three years after this year's draft? I think it's pretty clear what they're building around. Draft picks.

It's a gigantic "part of the puzzle" when you are carving out a large percentage of cap space for 7 years for one player. You sign a player like that when you're d0ne getting all those draft picks. all those draft picks and not one of them is a top 5.

Again, you're paying someone 11 million + dollars to play for your team, and he's a complimentary guy? You pay someone 11 mill and you are expecting him to pay like an 11 million dollar player, your best player, a guy your team "revolves" around.

 

[haohmaru]

It's a gigantic "part of the puzzle" when you are carving out a large percentage of cap space for 7 years for one player. You sign a player like that when you're d0ne getting all those draft picks. all those draft picks and not one of them is a top 5.

Again, you're paying someone 11 million + dollars to play for your team, and he's a complimentary guy? You pay someone 11 mill and you are expecting him to pay like an 11 million dollar player, your best player, a guy your team "revolves" around.

I disagree with you. Paying one elite guy an elite salary while team building doesn't necessarily mean you're building around that player and certainly isn't "building by signing UFA's". It's one guy on a team of 18 skaters that a piece of the puzzle. Again, I'm not on the pro-Panarin train but I get the philosophy why some people are. Are any of those 7-8 1st rounders going to be as good or better than Panarin who you can basically get for nothing other than salary? Unlikely. The Ranger have the cap room and by the time all of these first rounders are UFA's we're talking YEARS down the road where Panarin's cap hit will likely be far less a % of the cap than it is today.

I'm even less on the Karlsson train because I don't think his health/play will survive through a lengthy contract as well as Panarin's will.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I disagree with you. Paying one elite guy an elite salary while team building doesn't necessarily mean you're building around that player and certainly isn't "building by signing UFA's". It's one guy on a team of 18 skaters that a piece of the puzzle. Again, I'm not on the pro-Panarin train but I get the philosophy why some people are. Are any of those 7-8 1st rounders going to be as good or better than Panarin who you can basically get for nothing other than salary? Unlikely. The Ranger have the cap room and by the time all of these first rounders are UFA's we're talking YEARS down the road where Panarin's cap hit will likely be far less a % of the cap than it is today.

I'm even less on the Karlsson train because I don't think his health/play will survive through a lengthy contract as well as Panarin's will.

That line of thinking defies all logic. So all these years, the team wasn't being built around Henrik, the highest paid guy on the team? He was just "part of the puzzle"?

You sign a guy to be a part of your team that takes out 13% of your cap space. How long before it's "We need an elite center to play with Panarin"? "We need another elite winger to take the focus off of Panarin?" "We need that PP Quarterback Dman to compliment Panarin on the PP?"

Because the elite Center, Winger and PP QB we don't have at the moment, and still need even if we signed him.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Panarin yes, Karlsson no.

 

[haohmaru]

That line of thinking defies all logic. So all these years, the team wasn't being built around Henrik, the highest paid guy on the team? He was just "part of the puzzle"?

You sign a guy to be a part of your team that takes out 13% of your cap space. How long before it's "We need an elite center to play with Panarin"? "We need another elite winger to take the focus off of Panarin?" "We need that PP Quarterback Dman to compliment Panarin on the PP?"

Because the elite Center, Winger and PP QB we don't have at the moment, and still need even if we signed him.

The Rangers have been stockpiling draft picks, particularly 1st rounders, over the last 3 years and not using them to lure players from other teams via trade - they've been actually selecting those draft picks. Signing a single UFA, albeit high priced, is obviously NOT their core philosophy on building the team - the draft picks are.

We can agree to disagree. By the time the Rangers might really be contenders Panarin's cap hit % (which, btw, is purely conjecture on your part since you don't know term or $) will likely be lower than that.

What kind of numbers will Zibanejad put up with Panarin on his wing? Might be elite, no?

This team needs to get better - through the draft and through free agency. They need to learn how to win. How to fight to get into the playoffs. How to win in the playoffs. How to win the ultimate prize. You don't do that with a bunch of 22 year olds without experience.

Again, I'm not pro Panarin but I understand the philosophy behind those that are and that they might not necessarily be wrong.

Lundqvist is a whole other debate that I don't care to get into.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

The Rangers have been stockpiling draft picks, particularly 1st rounders, over the last 3 years and not using them to lure players from other teams via trade - they've been actually selecting those draft picks. Signing a single UFA, albeit high priced, is obviously NOT their core philosophy on building the team - the draft picks are.

We can agree to disagree. By the time the Rangers might really be contenders Panarin's cap hit % (which, btw, is purely conjecture on your part since you don't know term or $) will likely be lower than that.

What kind of numbers will Zibanejad put up with Panarin on his wing? Might be elite, no?

This team needs to get better - through the draft and through free agency. They need to learn how to win. How to fight to get into the playoffs. How to win in the playoffs. How to win the ultimate prize. You don't do that with a bunch of 22 year olds without experience.

Again, I'm not pro Panarin but I understand the philosophy behind those that are and that they might not necessarily be wrong.

Lundqvist is a whole other debate that I don't care to get into.

If the core philosophy is build through the draft then signing an 11 million dollar free agent is the anthesis of that philosophy.

The time to fight to get into the playoffs is not next season. It's the season after next.

 

[Calad]

If the core philosophy is build through the draft then signing an 11 million dollar free agent is the anthesis of that philosophy.

The time to fight to get into the playoffs is not next season. It's the season after next.

Just because they sign a top UFA doesn't mean they are immediately fighting to get into the playoffs.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Just because they sign a top UFA doesn't mean they are immediately fighting to get into the playoffs.

Then why in the hell is that UFA signing here anyway?

 

[Calad]

Then why in the hell is that UFA signing here anyway?

I don't know if you've noticed, but New York has had no trouble attracting UFAs in the past. Besides, we are a very young team that is bound to grow and get better. Players will see that there is a future here

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I don't know if you've noticed, but New York has had no trouble attracting UFAs in the past. Besides, we are a very young team that is bound to grow and get better. Players will see that there is a future here

New York had no problem signing them when they were going for it every year. They are rebuilding. Panarin signs here he might not see playoffs during the rest of his prime years. And it's not like we have a Matthews/Marner to sell him on. We have a lot of good prospects but they are maybes until they ain't.

Further, if a guy comes here for the money and doesn't care about winning, why would you want someone like that here?

They aren't signing him anyway so it'll be a moot point.

 

[Richter35]

You need vets to take pressure off kids and not put them into roles that they are not ready for. You also need veteran leadership. ZBad & Kreider provide this. Legit top line players who are leaders in the locker room.

As for Smith, who is paying his salary to be a 4th line wing/3rd pair defenseman?

In response to you and a couple others- I get that we need to keep vets around. We need vets that give a shit though and want to be here. Like hank - he’s pissed about losing. I don’t see the same urgency from CK. He also disappeared without zucc.

Zucc cared more- that’s why I’d bring him back to be the vet leader. If we are picking 8th because 2 teams jump ahead of us in the lottery (with this team’s luck I’d bet on that) then I’d be more willing to keep Chris until the deadline to keep the kids out of the tank.

If we get kappo I think he can make the jump next year- need to free up a spot for him. That’s my .02

 

[egelband]

Oilers fan here in peace...

So, ik you guys love Zibby and value him very highly and it'd take a big offer to let him go.
In Edmonton we need a player literally exactly like him, he checks off all the boxes for what we are looking for and I'm a huge fan of his. He's a perfect fit here, like a crazy good fit.

So, I bring you an offer for him. Feel free to modify it and good feedback/constructive criticism is appreciated.
Also, Bern, I'd appreciate if you kept the word count of your response below 400 lol.

Ok heres my offer:

Our 1st (~8/9th) + Jones + Yamo/Pulju + our 3rd this year + a conditional pick in 2020
*Pick is a 1st if we make the WCF. 2nd if we don't.

For

Zibby + Vesey/Namestnikov(50%)

That's a great offer but I think the rangers need to keep Mika. Got noone else, really. Off we trade Mika we re kind of losing all hope for three next couple years.

 

[Calad]

In response to you and a couple others- I get that we need to keep vets around. We need vets that give a **** though and want to be here. Like hank - he’s pissed about losing. I don’t see the same urgency from CK. He also disappeared without zucc.

Zucc cared more- that’s why I’d bring him back to be the vet leader. If we are picking 8th because 2 teams jump ahead of us in the lottery (with this team’s luck I’d bet on that) then I’d be more willing to keep Chris until the deadline to keep the kids out of the tank.

If we get kappo I think he can make the jump next year- need to free up a spot for him. That’s my .02

New York had no problem signing them when they were going for it every year. They are rebuilding. Panarin signs here he might not see playoffs during the rest of his prime years. And it's not like we have a Matthews/Marner to sell him on. We have a lot of good prospects but they are maybes until they ain't.

Further, if a guy comes here for the money and doesn't care about winning, why would you want someone like that here?

They aren't signing him anyway so it'll be a moot point.

No one said they were only coming for money and didn't care about winning but you

 

[Ken Lund]

No. I don't think anyone would agree with you unless it was a premier asset. Why do we want Callahan, why are we helping Tampa by taking his contract and, why are we trading Pionk?

Well, no, I don't want Callahan, but I would like to add assets. And honestly, while I was a big fan of Pionk at the season's beginning, I have lost faith. So if I could get Raddysh or Foote and a draft pick I would. But I'm not expecting to use cap space on free agents or trades either. So there's room for Cally's salary. If you want to spend on bringing in talent then I agree it makes no sense. If you think that Pionk could still turn into an effective defenseman, then I agree it makes no sense. But I would definitely consider it.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

No one said they were only coming for money and didn't care about winning but you

Kind of implied when a guy signs a big ticket in a place that is in the middle of a rebuild and not anywhere close to competing.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Not sure how I’m making it to draft day without wrapping my mouth around an exhaust pipe in my garage

 

[SA16]

Well, no, I don't want Callahan, but I would like to add assets. And honestly, while I was a big fan of Pionk at the season's beginning, I have lost faith. So if I could get Raddysh or Foote and a draft pick I would. But I'm not expecting to use cap space on free agents or trades either. So there's room for Cally's salary. If you want to spend on bringing in talent then I agree it makes no sense. If you think that Pionk could still turn into an effective defenseman, then I agree it makes no sense. But I would definitely consider it.

They refused to trade Foote for McDonagh they are not trading him to get rid of Callahan

 

[Calad]

Kind of implied when a guy signs a big ticket in a place that is in the middle of a rebuild and not anywhere close to competing.

Hard to understand that he's looking at the length of his contract and not just the 1st year he signs?

With all of the picks and prospects Gorton has amassed over the past 2 years this rebuild is going better than we could have anticipated. Add this to the coming draft and 2020's, which we will likely collect even more picks with the expiring contracts we have, and for once the future instead of the present looks bright in MSG.