Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIII

[effen]

Thread/board is getting to be an echo chamber. The plan is pretty clearly laid out. Probably a good idea for some of us to step away a bit and stop posting in circles.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Zibanejad shouldn't be dealt unless the payment is so over his value that I'd question the sanity of the other GM. I'm talking Ottawa's 1st and Makar from Colorado.

 

[Calad]

no

yes

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

I think sometimes people lose sight of what happens to the individual players in terms of their confidence and long term development when they're not put in a position to be successful and given the time to grow. There's a preoccupation with tearing it completely down in the singular pursuit of nabbing that coveted lottery pick but what kind if roster are you icing in an effort to do that and is that what's in the best interest of your organization as a whole. Seems to be potentially damaging a bunch of kids in the organization just to draft the next McDavid. Who wants to see kids like chytil and howden get dominated every night just so they can draft a kid 1st who will be thrown into the same environment but with 10 times the expectations and pressure due to draft pedigree.

You keep repeating the same thing. Firstly, your perpetuation of the myth that a loss of confidence by spending a year or two on a rebuilding team destroys young players, does not make it any more true.

Second, the Oilers issues are much deeper than simply tanking and drafting picks. They have made countless mistakes, from drafting, to trades, to development, etc. It is asinine to compare the Rangers to them, or frankly any other team not named Ottawa.

Finally, the fact remains, 9 of the last 10 Cup winners have had a top 2 pick playing a leading role. So while drafting high isn't a surefire bet, it's pretty much proven to be a necessity in order to get the talent required to win it all.

 

[Kocur Dill]

I am the same age as Hank, have followed him very closely over the years.

Hank’s NHL career have been very challenging for him. I think it’s always been a struggle for him to on one side be as exposed as he has been, face the pressure, show up for the work he has and on the other side experience the amazing unique advantages he gets from his career.

He came from his home town team (almost) with a bunch of teammates that he had always played with in Frolunda forever to the NYR team in the state it was in 05’. So few guys his age on the team (anyone?). It was dropped very fast, but he did have sort of a break down during that PO series against NJ. It was said to be migraines, head ache from biting his teeths when sleeping or whatever. The years passes by so fast, but for us who was around back then right after the lockout, it was still such a crazy atmosphere around this team. Everything was always on the edge, the drama. The extent coaches where questioned, players. Always guys getting booed so bad.

The thing, the key, is, I think Hank for more or less his entire career in NY has felt that he has walked a fine line handling the pressure. I think that he has forced his way through that pressure because the upside, the positives, of his career has been so amazing. He has committed to himself probably more than anyone else to live through all the hard ship to get to experience all the amazing things he has.

In short, the amazing moments are there for Hank in his life, the struggle is to keep a durable mental status the rest of the time. In this context, going to a contender to try to win a Cup makes no sense for him. Furthermore, if he is overtaken by like Geo, I don’t for a second think he would even hesitate to retire.

Then some will say that ‘why doesn’t he retire now, nobody wants him, he isn’t helping us, we would be better of without him’. The thing is, we know that that is not how the GM feels, how the player feels or how the coach feels. They believe in adding future assets, but they don’t believe in totally sinking the ship for a 7-8 year reabuild thing. Like it or not, that is a fact, and it motivates Hank to keep playing.

Hank is doing — much — more commercials than he ever has before in Sweden. He is all over. Is he filling the barns? Wouldn’t be surprised if he played one more year and then retired. Got some time with Shesty.

I don’t link to any quote by Hank above or stuff like that, I am speculating a lot. Take it for what it is worth.

NY fans and managment have run Bernie Williams and Patrick Ewing unfairly out of town when they both deserved better.
Leetch had to be shown the door over a phone call like an evicted apartment tenant.

It's the NY way. Build them up, tear them down, throw them away, throw them a ceremony decades later.

I hope Lundqvist gets more respect than that.

 

[NYR Viper]

Kreider is the guy to deal this offseason. It’s a smart decision. See if they can trade Smith and Shattenkirk. At least one of them needs to go. Create space on defense.

Add more picks and young players. Kids like Lemieux, Howden, Chytil and Andersson need to develop. Add Kravtsov and maybe someone like Meskanen or Gettinger next year. Hajek and/or Lindgren and/or Rykov.

Kreider should return a 1st + good young player at the very least. Namestnikov, Vesey and Fast dealt at next years deadline.

 

[haohmaru]

Finally, the fact remains, 9 of the last 10 Cup winners have had a top 2 pick playing a leading role. So while drafting high isn't a surefire bet, it's pretty much proven to be a necessity in order to get the talent required to win it all.

And, I'll bet every, or nearly every, team in the NHL has a top 5 pick in their lineup and fail to win the Cup. That's 97%. Every year. Only 5 teams have won the last 10 Cups, correct?

Generational talent wins Cups, for sure, but a top 2 pick isn't necessarily going to be Sydney Crosby or Ovechkin.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

And, I'll bet every, or nearly every, team in the NHL has a top 5 pick in their lineup and fail to win the Cup. That's 97%. Every year. Only 5 teams have won the last 10 Cups, correct?

Generational talent wins Cups, for sure, but a top 2 pick isn't necessarily going to be Sydney Crosby or Ovechkin.

Well, a top 5 pick is much different than a top 2 pick. Also, I'm all ears if you have another method, but all I see is people bashing those who want to try something new, by going full blown tank, without offering anything other than a heavy dose of overpaying FA's.

Sorry if I'm tired of having watched this story play out time and again with this franchise.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

All teams who win Cups need at least one to two key players being discovered outside of top five picks.

Rangers had it with Zubov. Penguins with Letang. Boston had a bunch of mid round contributors.

 

[DutchShamrock]

Bottom line is we can take all the polls we want and campaign nonstop, but Lundqvist isn't going until he decides to.

At the point he decides he wants to go and play for a cup elsewhere, the goal is to accommodate that request because he earned it. The return is a distant second and nothing to get mad about. There is no reason to debate anything, no momentum to create, no conversation to have. It's up to Henrik, and then Gorton if that's the route they go.

 

[Ola]

Eh. I think DeAngelo's on ice performance over the last 6 weeks is the only thing to get legitimately excited about, then he ****s it up by pulling something else and getting himself scratched. It's still early and Im willing to be patient, but this thing isn't taking off anytime soon.

Nah, I think you are too pessimistic. Think we have a lot of things to be excited about.

I’ve loved TDA’s game from the get go. It’s so impressive how fast he thinks the game. Someone have done a really good job coaching this kid. That fast puck distribution don’t come by itself. It’s not always that super productive. But for a team it’s without any doubt what you want. The kid is talented too.

Now he is put in a position to play to his strengths at a time where he has a lot of confidence and things are coming together for him — and it’s showing.

But I certainly don’t think he is the only good looking kid we have. The others might not get the same tangible results — give us the same bragging rights over at the main board — at the moment but I still think many are on track and looks good.

Neal Pionk has been trashed so much, but a lot of that is just pure BS. You can see that he is feeling the pressure, but the kid should be proud of what he has done. Due to carrying Shatty our blueline is totally skewed with three small PMDs. Pionk has — due to lack of alternatives — often been forced to play in an insane role for him. Night after night going up against the best of the league playing well over 20 minutes a night with very little support.

Someone not knowing hockey will not realize that when deployed like that, he has done a much better job than what a fringe NHLer could have done. He is what minus 13 on the year. People can say what they want about +/-, but deploy the wrong guy in that role with the lack of strong support that Pionk has had he would have been minus 40.

The big issue from my POV is that Pionk is slowing down the pace too much, hugs the puck too often. Sometimes it seems great, but often it makes the job harder for his entire unit because they face a set D.

I think he is a free asset that we should appreciate a lot.

I also think that Lias is progressing well and showing a lot of progress YTY so to speak.

I love how Lemieux is looking, definitely think he will be an asset for us going forward.

I am a little concerned about Chytil. I am afraid that we have done the classic mistake of rushing him. The problem is just that if we liked left him in the Czech Rep for 2 years — in game situations, how many puck touches of 1/2/3/4/5 sec would he have over a season? And then you compare that with what he has had in the NHL this year. How often is he really holding on to the puck with time to make real decisions? Figure out a defense?

But we shouldn’t forget that the kid still is so young. He has such an impressive combination of speed, size and skill. Give the kid 2-3 more years and he will be a lot better than today. Add 2-3 more years to that, and I am certain the curve still will be heading in the right direction.

Buch is the type who I just don’t think we quite realize how good he is. You sometimes see comments like ‘he isn’t really great in any area’ and so forth.

When I see Buch I very much see a kid that still is figuring things out. Filling out. Growing and developing. Very much a work in product. In many ways.

Against that background, its very impressive how he scores at a pace way above 0.5 PPG. I don’t care one bit about the notion that Buch already is 23 y/o and won’t develop anymore etc. Watch him play, why won’t he develop? I can’t see any reason for why he can’t improve a lot. None.

Buch’s understanding of the offensive game is top notch. I have high hopes for that Buch will be able to improve his shot more. He got it in him.

Many have been down on Skjei. I think it’s BS. It’s important to remember that the same guys who trash Skjei now, thought our coach was the worst in the league ever for not using Skjei as our No 1 D three years ago.

In fact, Skjei’s role on this team has grown tremendously this season. He is to a large degree the back bone of our defense. From the drop of the puck until it’s over he is counted on to perform.

Sure, from a quality perspective his play in a sheltered and limited role three years ago might have been higher than today. But — despite what some math professor in Vancouver says — that is of course totally comparing apples and oranges.

Skjei is growing into a bigger role on an exposed defense. It’s never easy for Ds on crappy teams. Sure it’s tough for him at times, but it’s a process you have to go through (yeah I know about the math professor in Vancouver, but...).

I think Skjei has kept his head over water, that is great.

I also think that we all should be impressed with Howden. It’s not easy to make the jump from juniors to the NHL. Howden made it straight off. Great attitude, speed, work ethic.

I would however prefer if he was tried some more in a winger role, given a bit less responsibility with the puck and more duties N-S. I don’t think he can become a top 6 at center, but he has many of the abilities that if deployed as a winger he will really help and support his center well. Can open up ice, go to the net etc. JMHO.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

As the ambassador of the Scorched Earth association, even I wouldn’t want to see Zbad moved.

Kreider + Peg’s 1st at the draft, assuming it gets us between picks 10~15.

 

[Inferno]

As the ambassador of the Scorched Earth association, even I wouldn’t want to see Zbad moved.

Kreider + Peg’s 1st at the draft, assuming it gets us between picks 10~15.

Yuck. That'horrible.
I'd rather keep ND re up kreider.

 

[Lundy HOF]

Yuck. That'horrible.
I'd rather keep ND re up kreider.

Are you sure you don’t just want to make a bad trade?

 

[Thirty One]

As the ambassador of the Scorched Earth association, even I wouldn’t want to see Zbad moved.

Kreider + Peg’s 1st at the draft, assuming it gets us between picks 10~15.

Like all of the picks between 10 and 15?

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Trying to think of some Kreider scenarios.

Kreider to Carolina for a 1st, Fox, and a conditional 3rd that becomes a 2021 1st if he re-signs

Kreider to Nashville for Tolvanen and a conditional 2nd that becomes a 2021 1st if he re-signs. Or maybe the condition is based on playoff success.

Kreider @ 50% plus the Jets pick to Toronto for Nylander.

Just a couple to chew on. Realistic? Too much?

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Trying to think of some Kreider scenarios.

Kreider to Carolina for a 1st, Fox, and a conditional 3rd that becomes a 2021 1st if he re-signs

Kreider to Nashville for Tolvanen and a conditional 2nd that becomes a 2021 1st if he re-signs. Or maybe the condition is based on playoff success.

Kreider @ 50% plus the Jets pick to Toronto for Nylander.

Just a couple to chew on. Realistic? Too much?

I’d rather do Kreider for Fabbro, 2019 1st and maybe a playoff condition 2020 pick if we’re sending him to Nashville, I’m really not all that sold on Tolvanen

 

[charliemurphy]

I’d rather do Kreider for Fabbro, 2019 1st and maybe a playoff condition 2020 pick if we’re sending him to Nashville, I’m really not all that sold on Tolvanen

I would try and keep Keider but try and do everything to trade for Dante Fabbro's rights. Nashville's defense is stacked, he's up after his senior year and I have a feeling he would love to play for Quinn again.

 

[kovazub94]

That's the part that shocks me. People are screaming that they do not want a perpetual rebuild a la edmonton or Carolina. Then they want to go out and make moves that absolutely ensures that. A line that features Kreider and Zibanejad can go up against the opposing team's top lines each night and can occupy the opposition's top defense pairing every night. That allows the younger players not to be forced into roles that they are not ready for. That allows for younger players do develop at their own pace and not have to deal with unfair expectations and pressure.

Seems so straight forward sensible and yet...

 

[Inferno]

I would trade kreider...I'd just want a building block piece back.

 

[kovazub94]

Nah, I think you are too pessimistic. Think we have a lot of things to be excited about.

I’ve loved TDA’s game from the get go. It’s so impressive how fast he thinks the game. Someone have done a really good job coaching this kid. That fast puck distribution don’t come by itself. It’s not always that super productive. But for a team it’s without any doubt what you want. The kid is talented too.

Now he is put in a position to play to his strengths at a time where he has a lot of confidence and things are coming together for him — and it’s showing.

But I certainly don’t think he is the only good looking kid we have. The others might not get the same tangible results — give us the same bragging rights over at the main board — at the moment but I still think many are on track and looks good.

Neal Pionk has been trashed so much, but a lot of that is just pure BS. You can see that he is feeling the pressure, but the kid should be proud of what he has done. Due to carrying Shatty our blueline is totally skewed with three small PMDs. Pionk has — due to lack of alternatives — often been forced to play in an insane role for him. Night after night going up against the best of the league playing well over 20 minutes a night with very little support.

Someone not knowing hockey will not realize that when deployed like that, he has done a much better job than what a fringe NHLer could have done. He is what minus 13 on the year. People can say what they want about +/-, but deploy the wrong guy in that role with the lack of strong support that Pionk has had he would have been minus 40.

The big issue from my POV is that Pionk is slowing down the pace too much, hugs the puck too often. Sometimes it seems great, but often it makes the job harder for his entire unit because they face a set D.

I think he is a free asset that we should appreciate a lot.

I also think that Lias is progressing well and showing a lot of progress YTY so to speak.

I love how Lemieux is looking, definitely think he will be an asset for us going forward.

I am a little concerned about Chytil. I am afraid that we have done the classic mistake of rushing him. The problem is just that if we liked left him in the Czech Rep for 2 years — in game situations, how many puck touches of 1/2/3/4/5 sec would he have over a season? And then you compare that with what he has had in the NHL this year. How often is he really holding on to the puck with time to make real decisions? Figure out a defense?

But we shouldn’t forget that the kid still is so young. He has such an impressive combination of speed, size and skill. Give the kid 2-3 more years and he will be a lot better than today. Add 2-3 more years to that, and I am certain the curve still will be heading in the right direction.

Buch is the type who I just don’t think we quite realize how good he is. You sometimes see comments like ‘he isn’t really great in any area’ and so forth.

When I see Buch I very much see a kid that still is figuring things out. Filling out. Growing and developing. Very much a work in product. In many ways.

Against that background, its very impressive how he scores at a pace way above 0.5 PPG. I don’t care one bit about the notion that Buch already is 23 y/o and won’t develop anymore etc. Watch him play, why won’t he develop? I can’t see any reason for why he can’t improve a lot. None.

Buch’s understanding of the offensive game is top notch. I have high hopes for that Buch will be able to improve his shot more. He got it in him.

Many have been down on Skjei. I think it’s BS. It’s important to remember that the same guys who trash Skjei now, thought our coach was the worst in the league ever for not using Skjei as our No 1 D three years ago.

In fact, Skjei’s role on this team has grown tremendously this season. He is to a large degree the back bone of our defense. From the drop of the puck until it’s over he is counted on to perform.

Sure, from a quality perspective his play in a sheltered and limited role three years ago might have been higher than today. But — despite what some math professor in Vancouver says — that is of course totally comparing apples and oranges.

Skjei is growing into a bigger role on an exposed defense. It’s never easy for Ds on crappy teams. Sure it’s tough for him at times, but it’s a process you have to go through (yeah I know about the math professor in Vancouver, but...).

I think Skjei has kept his head over water, that is great.

I also think that we all should be impressed with Howden. It’s not easy to make the jump from juniors to the NHL. Howden made it straight off. Great attitude, speed, work ethic.

I would however prefer if he was tried some more in a winger role, given a bit less responsibility with the puck and more duties N-S. I don’t think he can become a top 6 at center, but he has many of the abilities that if deployed as a winger he will really help and support his center well. Can open up ice, go to the net etc. JMHO.

This man knows from prospect development. From TDA to Howden. Great post!

 

[eco's bones]

Nah, I think you are too pessimistic. Think we have a lot of things to be excited about.

I’ve loved TDA’s game from the get go. It’s so impressive how fast he thinks the game. Someone have done a really good job coaching this kid. That fast puck distribution don’t come by itself. It’s not always that super productive. But for a team it’s without any doubt what you want. The kid is talented too.

Now he is put in a position to play to his strengths at a time where he has a lot of confidence and things are coming together for him — and it’s showing.

But I certainly don’t think he is the only good looking kid we have. The others might not get the same tangible results — give us the same bragging rights over at the main board — at the moment but I still think many are on track and looks good.

Neal Pionk has been trashed so much, but a lot of that is just pure BS. You can see that he is feeling the pressure, but the kid should be proud of what he has done. Due to carrying Shatty our blueline is totally skewed with three small PMDs. Pionk has — due to lack of alternatives — often been forced to play in an insane role for him. Night after night going up against the best of the league playing well over 20 minutes a night with very little support.

Someone not knowing hockey will not realize that when deployed like that, he has done a much better job than what a fringe NHLer could have done. He is what minus 13 on the year. People can say what they want about +/-, but deploy the wrong guy in that role with the lack of strong support that Pionk has had he would have been minus 40.

The big issue from my POV is that Pionk is slowing down the pace too much, hugs the puck too often. Sometimes it seems great, but often it makes the job harder for his entire unit because they face a set D.

I think he is a free asset that we should appreciate a lot.

I also think that Lias is progressing well and showing a lot of progress YTY so to speak.

I love how Lemieux is looking, definitely think he will be an asset for us going forward.

I am a little concerned about Chytil. I am afraid that we have done the classic mistake of rushing him. The problem is just that if we liked left him in the Czech Rep for 2 years — in game situations, how many puck touches of 1/2/3/4/5 sec would he have over a season? And then you compare that with what he has had in the NHL this year. How often is he really holding on to the puck with time to make real decisions? Figure out a defense?

But we shouldn’t forget that the kid still is so young. He has such an impressive combination of speed, size and skill. Give the kid 2-3 more years and he will be a lot better than today. Add 2-3 more years to that, and I am certain the curve still will be heading in the right direction.

Buch is the type who I just don’t think we quite realize how good he is. You sometimes see comments like ‘he isn’t really great in any area’ and so forth.

When I see Buch I very much see a kid that still is figuring things out. Filling out. Growing and developing. Very much a work in product. In many ways.

Against that background, its very impressive how he scores at a pace way above 0.5 PPG. I don’t care one bit about the notion that Buch already is 23 y/o and won’t develop anymore etc. Watch him play, why won’t he develop? I can’t see any reason for why he can’t improve a lot. None.

Buch’s understanding of the offensive game is top notch. I have high hopes for that Buch will be able to improve his shot more. He got it in him.

Many have been down on Skjei. I think it’s BS. It’s important to remember that the same guys who trash Skjei now, thought our coach was the worst in the league ever for not using Skjei as our No 1 D three years ago.

In fact, Skjei’s role on this team has grown tremendously this season. He is to a large degree the back bone of our defense. From the drop of the puck until it’s over he is counted on to perform.

Sure, from a quality perspective his play in a sheltered and limited role three years ago might have been higher than today. But — despite what some math professor in Vancouver says — that is of course totally comparing apples and oranges.

Skjei is growing into a bigger role on an exposed defense. It’s never easy for Ds on crappy teams. Sure it’s tough for him at times, but it’s a process you have to go through (yeah I know about the math professor in Vancouver, but...).

I think Skjei has kept his head over water, that is great.

I also think that we all should be impressed with Howden. It’s not easy to make the jump from juniors to the NHL. Howden made it straight off. Great attitude, speed, work ethic.

I would however prefer if he was tried some more in a winger role, given a bit less responsibility with the puck and more duties N-S. I don’t think he can become a top 6 at center, but he has many of the abilities that if deployed as a winger he will really help and support his center well. Can open up ice, go to the net etc. JMHO.

There's a lot here and I agree with almost all of it. DeAngelo has made great progress this year and Pionk for lack of anyone better has been put into situations that don't play to his strengths and then overplayed too much. I think in the second half we've seen him wearing down. The biggest problem on our right side IMO is Shattenkirk. He's lost a step and as a veteran you'd want the younger guys relying on him more in critical situations and he's just not able to handle it. It's a problem when you have three smallish PMD's on your right side and none of them is strong defensively which is why McQuaid was in the lineup regularly.

Skjei like Pionk is overplayed but he handles it better because he's more experienced and he's got the size and strength. IMO he is our best all around defenseman but he's a top 4 and not a top 2.

Andersson, Chytil and Howden are all struggling and it's worse since the deadline. Chytil has the most offensive gifts. There are things he's doing better now than he was earlier in the season. He's using his body a lot more for one thing and if you've got size you should use it. I don't think a couple weeks in Hartford would hurt any of these guys but with the season coming to an end it's a little late.

Lemiuex has been great. I see him as a third liner though. A guy you can play regular--who will chip in and play a mean and agitating game and we could use a couple more like him.

Buchnevich is the guy stepping forward now. The first half of the season he was a passenger and he wasn't getting shots---now he's involved and he is getting shots and I like the Buchnevich that isn't pass first all the time. He's better when he's a little selfish and shoots the puck more.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Like all of the picks between 10 and 15?

Yes. All of them.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Yuck. That'horrible.
I'd rather keep ND re up kreider.

Turcotte? Boldy? Zegras? Soderstrom? Newhook? York?

There are some very good prospects projected to go in the 10-15 range.

 

[bobbop]

There's a lot here and I agree with almost all of it. DeAngelo has made great progress this year and Pionk for lack of anyone better has been put into situations that don't play to his strengths and then overplayed too much. I think in the second half we've seen him wearing down. The biggest problem on our right side IMO is Shattenkirk. He's lost a step and as a veteran you'd want the younger guys relying on him more in critical situations and he's just not able to handle it. It's a problem when you have three smallish PMD's on your right side and none of them is strong defensively which is why McQuaid was in the lineup regularly.

Skjei like Pionk is overplayed but he handles it better because he's more experienced and he's got the size and strength. IMO he is our best all around defenseman but he's a top 4 and not a top 2.

Andersson, Chytil and Howden are all struggling and it's worse since the deadline. Chytil has the most offensive gifts. There are things he's doing better now than he was earlier in the season. He's using his body a lot more for one thing and if you've got size you should use it. I don't think a couple weeks in Hartford would hurt any of these guys but with the season coming to an end it's a little late.

Lemiuex has been great. I see him as a third liner though. A guy you can play regular--who will chip in and play a mean and agitating game and we could use a couple more like him.

Buchnevich is the guy stepping forward now. The first half of the season he was a passenger and he wasn't getting shots---now he's involved and he is getting shots and I like the Buchnevich that isn't pass first all the time. He's better when he's a little selfish and shoots the puck more.

Well written and spot on.