Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXII

[BobMarleyNYR]

The majority of people haven't talked 40 goals in a very long time, if ever.

But I think that speaks to two larger problem that we sometimes have around here:

1. We set the bar so high in the early stages, that very few players can ever meet it.

2. We then spend the next half-decade focusing on what a player isn't, rather than what he is.

Those factors than tend to lead into viewpoints than essentially sound like adult-versions of what some of my kids would say, "Well if he can't have all of [Insert desire], I don't want any of it."

Kreider is a first line winger. On this team, probably a 25-30 goal, 50-60 point winger.

On a high-powered offensive team, probably north of 30 goals and north of 60 points.

Sorry, dad

He spent his first 4-5 years on high-powered offensive teams. Kreider is not one of the over-hyped. However, if the team's top go-to guy can't score 30, the team is the one putting unrealistic expectations on him.

Now, that's not too juvenile and childish, right?

 

[Edge]

Zibanejad’s 63 points is 1st line level and the season isn’t even over yet.

Rangers fans think that a first line player has to be an 80 point guy. Maybe your expectations are wrong? No, it can’t be that!

I think we also have to factor in that the offense in this league is stacked to about half-a-dozen teams.

A few weeks back we looked at the top 20-25 scorers in the league, and there was a heavy concentration to a select number of teams.

That has two effects: first, it inflates the numbers of guys on those teams; second, it creates a disproportionate gap between them and players on lesser teams.

The NHL in 2019 is very much a have and have not league when it comes to offense.

 

[True Blue]

Which is easily summed up as 25-25 players simply aren't first liners, no matter whether they play 19-20 minutes. Then your just misusing them, which NY media/fanfare does to players. For Lundqvist it's merited. for Zucc and Kreider, it's not. Zibanejad, maybe, we'll see.

On how many teams can't he be a first line player on? You can name 60 wings that are better?

 

[Off Sides]

I get Gorton would rather have prospects, yet that always goes back to the best ones are not usually available.

Stone is a more productive player, and he extended right away. Granlund is a more productive player and they get at least two playoffs.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I think there are a lot of teams that would love to have a 25-25 winger on their first line right now.

I think there are a handful of teams for whom the result would not be 25-25 if they had Kreider, and it would have nothing to do with usage.

I agree teams would want him. The very topic is inextricably about usage.

 

[Edge]

Sorry, dad

He spent his first 4-5 years on high-powered offensive teams. Kreider is not one of the over-hyped. However, if the team's top go-to guy can't score 30, the team is the one putting unrealistic expectations on him.

Now, that's not too juvenile and childish, right?

Yup, I totally go into dad mode here. And there's a reason for that.

I'm no talking about what Kreider was in 2014 or 2015. I'm talking about what he is in 2019, and has been since for three years now (minus the surgery).

Post surgery, Kreider has played 87 games, scored 31 goals and posted 63 points. In 2016-17, Kreider scored 28 goals and 53 points in 75 games.

Minus the rib situation, that essentially points to a 30 goal, 57 point player.

In 2017-2019, that's a first line winger.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

On how many teams can't he be a first line player on? You can name 60 wings that are better?

Don't know. Again, I have a job but regardless, a first line player proves it, he doesn't score 20 in 30 and 6 in the next 30...

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Yup, I totally go into dad mode here. And there's a reason for that.

I'm no talking about what Kreider was in 2014 or 2015. I'm talking about what he is in 2019, and has been since for three years now (minus the surgery).

Post surgery, Kreider has played 87 games, scored 31 goals and posted 63 points. In 2016-17, Kreider scored 28 goals and 53 points in 75 games.

Minus the rib situation, that essentially points to a 30 goal, 57 point player.

In 2017-2019, that's a first line winger.

This isn’t even mentioning his ability to drive the play and dominate on the forecheck.

If Kreider were on Winnipeg or San Jose people here would literally be drooling over him.

 

[NernieBichols]

Defense as well. Have or have not.
Watch, the teams that are gonna advance in the playoffs will be the ones with the best set of 6.
Nashville and Winnipeg unfortunately will have to play early but otherwise that’d Be meeting in the WCF. And you got San Jose on the other bracket. And in the east, caps or Columbus(hopefully) and Boston or Tampa.

Offense is skewered you just said and it leads to regular season misrepresentations. But where it really counts, there are only a handful of teams that legitimate cup contenders anyway.

Get me 3 top line players and a bunch of middle 6 forwards, a really strong 6 D and a solid goalie who doesn’t give up softies once a night and give me 4 cracks at the playoffs with said team and I like the chances of winning a cup one year. Reliant on there not being a dynasty in the way every year

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Don't know. Again, I have a job but regardless, a first line player proves it, he doesn't score 20 in 30 and 6 in the next 30...

yes, no first line player has ever gone cold ever

literally every hockey player on the planet is streaky. it’s the nature of the sport.

 

[NernieBichols]

Offense is skewered. Defense watered down. And everyone’s in it with Bettman’s loser point. But ala the NBA only 6 or so teams ACTUALLY have a legit chance (all things being equal, no major injuries, etc)

 

[Edge]

Don't know. Again, I have a job but regardless, a first line player proves it, he doesn't score 20 in 30 and 6 in the next 30...

Look man, I get that we all don't have time to do extensive research. But you can't keep using the job line.

If you have the time to make the initial comment, it's hard to follow up with that line.

 

[NYR Viper]

If Kreider's moved, I will venture that it will probably involve prospects and not necessarily moving up in the draft or the swapping of draft picks.

I could see a deal similar to the Granlund deal. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers discussed a deal with Nashville that had Kreider going there in return for Fiala + and the Rangers turned it down

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Yup, I totally go into dad mode here. And there's a reason for that.

I'm no talking about what Kreider was in 2014 or 2015. I'm talking about what he is in 2019, and has been since for three years now (minus the surgery).

Post surgery, Kreider has played 87 games, scored 31 goals and posted 63 points. In 2016-17, Kreider scored 28 goals and 53 points in 75 games.

Minus the rib situation, that essentially points to a 30 goal, 57 point player.

In 2017-2019, that's a first line winger.

I'm only teasing, but you did actually equate my argument to something your kids do

If that's how it is, ok. I wouldn't build a team around Kreider, and I like him.

 

[Tawnos]

I wanted to sign Veronneau last year. Hirose is another really good target. Both D on that list are LH, so I don't know how interested we should be.

 

[NernieBichols]

All day every day. And I’m sure everyone feels the same way.

Give me a guy who scores every other game if he’s a 40g scorer. Give the guy who scores every 3rd game if he’s a 25-30 g scorer.

The whole scoring in Bunches or 2 in a game and one in the next, and then drying up for weeks.

Know what I’m saying

 

[Off Sides]

Stone put up 62 point in 59 in Ottawa.

I don't see Kreider getting that sort of return.

If they can not bring back a top prospect, and the Rangers have to go down a tier in prospects...

I'd much rather see the Rangers use him to move up and try to draft a player who could be a top tier prospect.

I like Howden, Hajek, Lindgren, Lemieux, as much as anyone, (well likely close to as much as anyone), yet gambling that they could get a tier or two higher than that by moving up in the draft, if it cost Kreider and the Jets 1st, I think are sort of the gambles they need to take if that is available.

 

[Edge]

I'm only teasing, but you did actually equate my argument to something your kids do

If that's how it is, ok. I wouldn't build a team around Kreider, and I like him.

Well, in fairness, it was painted with broader strokes as opposed to an individual assertion.

As for Kreider, I think it depends on how we view him.

Do we view him as the guy who works with the guy we build around, or do we view him as the guy?

I think if we view him as the former, his salary and role are pretty much in line with the median job description.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Look man, I get that we all don't have time to do extensive research. But you can't keep using the job line.

If you have the time to make the initial comment, it's hard to follow up with that line.

The initial question was asked earlier this week. Fine, I'm just not very knowledgeable.

I guess I am falling into the "First Liner" conundrum... I suppose he is, I just don't like hiow he's made out to be THE go-to guy.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Well, in fairness, it was painted with broader strokes as opposed to an individual assertion.

As for Kreider, I think it depends on how we view him.

Do we view him as the guy who works with the guy we build around, or do we view him as the guy?

I think if we view him as the former, his salary and role are pretty much in line with the median job description.

No problem either way, I'm a comedian--I get paid to hyperbolize!

THAT is exactly what I'm at.

 

[GAGLine]

Kreider has a year left on his contract. We, or any team we trade him to, can't negotiate a new contract until July 1st. So if we are trading him at/before the draft, him re-signing won't be part of the equation.

 

[Edge]

The initial question was asked earlier this week. Fine, I'm just not very knowledgeable.

I guess I am falling into the "First Liner" conundrum... I suppose he is, I just don't like hiow he's made out to be THE go-to guy.

On the contrary, I think you're knowledgeable. Hell, you've been posting on here almost as long as some of upcoming 2019 draft picks have been alive.

Re: Kreider, I think he's a first liner. Is he the best first liner? No, he's not.

I think in an ideal world he's anywhere from our number 3-5 offensive weapon. Obviously, that's not likely to happen right now.

But I think he can play an important role for this team, even if he isn't "the guy" so to speak. But, and this is a big but, it also comes down to the terms of his next deal.

Are we talking 7x4, 7x7, 6x7, 8x5 etc.?

I treat it like I do any of my own business decisions; I need to see the numbers and know the details before I can have a strong opinion.

But if I trade Kreider, I definitely set the price at the first line wing level.

 

[Edge]

Kreider has a year left on his contract. We, or any team we trade him to, can't negotiate a new contract until July 1st. So if we are trading him at/before the draft, him re-signing won't be part of the equation.

That's (another reason) why I'm not sure it's a draft trade.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Zibanejad’s 63 points is 1st line level and the season isn’t even over yet.

Rangers fans think that a first line player has to be an 80 point guy. Maybe your expectations are wrong? No, it can’t be that!

No, it can't be. a guy thought to be your main weapon sure as shit should be expected to be scoring 30 perenially.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

There’s a pretty big part of me that feels like relying on Mika and Kreider to be first liners on a team trying to make a run is a bad idea, mainly because of how they’re putting up career years now that they’re getting so much more ice time than they’ve historically gotten