Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXI

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I feel like filling your weak wing depth with career defensemen will leave you with weak wing depth lmao

The solution is to acquire Chara to pair on the fourth line with Smith

 

[Tawnos]

You use exactly the perfect example of what course of action the Rangers should be afraid of when talking about the dreaded middle. It’s not Edmonton or Arizona vs Pens or Hawks. Minnesota is an example where front office overestimated its prospect pool quality and readiness and dipped into UFA market when they shouldn’t have. I was all for bringing Panarin but it’s not about him, it’s about the rest of the team including the upcoming prospects. Even if the Rangers win the lottery and able to land one of top 2 in the upcoming draft IMHO it’s only half of prerequisite to pursue Panarin. They also must secure a legitimate all situations young 1RD to build from.

At some point, you have to go with what you have. Perpetual rebuilds until you "realistically evaluate" your prospect pool aren't any better than peaking in mediocrity.

 

[GAGLine]

I can see a Skjei for Trouba deal happening if Winnipeg doesn't think they can sign Trouba long term. Trouba just turned 25 in February. Skjei turns 25 in a few weeks. Skjei is signed for 5 more years at a decent cap hit. Cheaper than Trouba will be.

 

[DanielBrassard]

To me, the bigger question is what do they do if/when they whiff on both of them?

Do they scour the secondary market? Do they stay put and focus on making trades? None of the above?

They should do nothing except look for bargains and take on contracts for assets. They are going to have more cap space than they know what to do with.

 

[kovazub94]

At some point, you have to go with what you have. Perpetual rebuilds until you "realistically evaluate" your prospect pool aren't any better than peaking in mediocrity.

Generally - sure but the Rangers situation doesn’t fit yet because their rebuild is far from perpetual yet and how much of a mess their D currently is. Very simplistically the Rangers need three big pieces that are not in the organization yet before things turns around. Maybe the Rangers will be able to get one in the upcoming draft, another two via UFA and or a trade.

 

[nyrage]

Smith is serviceable for a couple of games on the wing and now he's been called a natural power forward. Yeah, he's the next Cam Neely and Iginla. Smith is a plug. I hope Chytl learns something on his timeout and that we get Howden back soon.

 

[Doctyl]

I’d be all for Gorton being aggressive af this summer. Offer sheets, trading a lot to move up for a player like Hughes, pushing for Panarin or EK if he makes it to free agency.

Really don’t trust the scouting department and I will be sick if they go the Edmonton route of shitty drafting with all these picks they have.

 

[Ola]

@RangerBoy made a nice post earlier about Gorton's analysis:



"If there's a younger player around the league that we can go get, we have the assets to go and get"

"Unconventional" and draft picks as currency, perhaps offer sheeting is more of a reality than not.

Think he is referring to a trade, since it’s a pretty unconventional option to build a team and since it’s the option that — sooner or later — makes the least sense.

NHL GMs are obviously why to risk adverse to do anything really. How many somewhat significant hockey trades have we had the last year? And so many of them aren’t ‘real’ hockeytrades. Domi for Galchenyuk was made to get a change of scenary.

As a result, the prices on the market is way to low. And that is something that Gorton surely have become aware of. Like a 2nd and a 3rd for Skinner or a B-tier prospect and mid 1st round pick for Montadour are two really low returns, just for example. Ottawa got so little for Karlsson. Heck the Avalanche didn’t get that much for Duchene (a protected 1st), before the meltdown in Ottawa took place. I didn’t like the McD and JT Miller trade. Super late round picks and two solid prospects.

A few teams always crashes every season. GMs are scared shitless of making trades, but they can’t do much wrong if they get a mandate from an owner to auction off his players and just need to take the highest offer. Teams will always crash. Around this time of the year, there are probably 22-24 teams with somewhat strong expectations on them to make the POs. Not all will, shit happens.
FLA can crash.
Chi can crash.
Carolina can crash.
Dallas can crash.
SJ can crash.
Tampa can crash.

As a result we will see more Skinner, Montour and Erik Karlsson trades, and I definitely rather see Gorton — when time has come — round out his roster by being on the receiving end in dump trades than dip into the UFA pool.

 

[Tawnos]

Generally - sure but the Rangers situation doesn’t fit yet because their rebuild is far from perpetual yet and how much of a mess their D currently is. Very simplistically the Rangers need three big pieces that are not in the organization yet before things turns around. Maybe the Rangers will be able to get one in the upcoming draft, another two via UFA and or a trade.

I think it’s ok to sign a player that starts in 19-20 in anticipation of the team making strides in 20-21, so long as that player is capable of being one of those big pieces.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I think it’s ok to sign a player that starts in 19-20 in anticipation of the team making strides in 20-21, so long as that player is capable of being one of those big pieces.

Agreed. Signing a big UFA isn't totally about next season, it's about 2020-21 and the years after when we will have added even more picks, prospects, and hopefully guys like Andersson, Howden, Chytil, Kravtsov etc become key pieces or useful trade pieces. Add in expiring contracts of Smith, Staal, Shattenkirk, Hank, Namestnikov, Strome and the Rangers will have so much cap space even with a Karlsson/Panarin.

 

[RGY]

Agreed. Signing a big UFA isn't totally about next season, it's about 2020-21 and the years after when we will have added even more picks, prospects, and hopefully guys like Andersson, Howden, Chytil, Kravtsov etc become key pieces or useful trade pieces. Add in expiring contracts of Smith, Staal, Shattenkirk, Hank, Namestnikov, Strome and the Rangers will have so much cap space even with a Karlsson/Panarin.

People here dont seem to understand this.

 

[haohmaru]

People have said this before, and I'll give you the same response. That 2nd and 3rd are more likely to contribute to a Cup win than Zuccarello. It's about this moment, his age and league-wide longevity trends. If he was 2 years younger, I would absolutely agree with keeping him on.

As for glue guys being important for a rebuild, I agree with you to an extent. Chris Drury is a really good example of a player who had a major impact on the young players the Rangers were developing. Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, Callahan, and Dubinsky were all HEAVILY influenced by Drury. The thing is... the Rangers still need to be in asset gathering mode, so it's a tough balance to strike. No one executes a rebuild perfectly, so there will be/or already have been mistakes made. Is this one of them? Maybe. Is it worth the gamble? In my opinion, absolutely.

And just so you know, if you didn't already, I'm not a statistics person in the sense that I believe in the team formula being more important than the collection of individuals and that players who have little statistical value can nonetheless have a positive impact on the ultimate result.

Honestly, I don't think you can possibly know when the Rangers are going to compete for a Cup to draw that conclusion. It's an unknown. Acquisitions, player development, draft, etc... Nobody thought Vegas would be in the Final last year and, yet, there they were.

To me, Zooks is a guy that leads by example every single night. He works hard against a league where nearly everyone is bigger than he is. He's got to be inspiring for any, eh, "physically challenged" player on the roster. Would I rather have a 2nd and a 3rd or would I rather have that guy setting an example every night? I'll take the latter - especially on a rebuilding team with tempered expectations. There has to be some leadership on the team and some vets north of 30 on a team to set the stage for winning as an expectation. If we need those guys, and we do, I'd rather have it be a guy that the organization knows what they have in that player instead of importing vets on expiring contracts like McQuaid.

I mean, I understand the opposing point of view. I really do and I don't have a problem with Hayes going to Winnipeg or McQuaid to Columbus. I think Zooks is a special teammate and a guy who really just wanted to be here for the rest of his career and, to me, the return wasn't worth the loss.

 

[Alluckks]

Maybe Winnipeg wants their 1st back for Trouba in the offseason

 

[kovazub94]

I think it’s ok to sign a player that starts in 19-20 in anticipation of the team making strides in 20-21, so long as that player is capable of being one of those big pieces.

They should explore this opportunity and be prepared but today is not they right time to make a commitment that it’s part of the plan, at least not until they make their picks in the upcoming draft.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

People here dont seem to understand this.

We do.

The issue is literally no one has built a winner that way.

 

[haohmaru]

We do.

The issue is literally no one has built a winner that way.

No one has built a winner by signing a big UFA while rebuilding around younger players?

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

We do.

The issue is literally no one has built a winner that way.

Boston with Chara and Savard for sure did. It’s definitely the less common way to build mainly because most GM’s overlay free agents and the players don’t live up to their new contracts and new roles.

Doesn’t mean that there are exceptions. Chara was an exception but it still happened. I also think LA deserves mention, they were UFA but they rebuilt by acquiring veteran players in trades to supplement their young players. Chicago did too with Hossa.

It’s about striking that balance. Getting the right guys, not overpaying guys who won’t live up their new roles.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

No one has built a winner by signing a big UFA while rebuilding around younger players?

Yeah you can't be successful while doing both. Every team that has won (specifically over the last decade) since the lockout has had their core players in place before going HAM on the FA market, if they really go hard in the market at all. Detroit is really the lone exception but they also had 3 home grown HOF's on their team.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Boston with Chara and Savard for sure did. It’s definitely the less common way to build mainly because most GM’s overlay free agents and the players don’t live up to their new contracts and new roles.

Doesn’t mean that there are exceptions. Chara was an exception but it still happened. I also think LA deserves mention, they were UFA but they rebuilt by acquiring veteran players in trades to supplement their young players. Chicago did too with Hossa.

It’s about striking that balance. Getting the right guys, not overpaying guys who won’t live up their new roles.

The problem is the core to build around is still very much in flux

 

[NernieBichols]

Honestly, I don't think you can possibly know when the Rangers are going to compete for a Cup to draw that conclusion. It's an unknown. Acquisitions, player development, draft, etc... Nobody thought Vegas would be in the Final last year and, yet, there they were.

To me, Zooks is a guy that leads by example every single night. He works hard against a league where nearly everyone is bigger than he is. He's got to be inspiring for any, eh, "physically challenged" player on the roster. Would I rather have a 2nd and a 3rd or would I rather have that guy setting an example every night? I'll take the latter - especially on a rebuilding team with tempered expectations. There has to be some leadership on the team and some vets north of 30 on a team to set the stage for winning as an expectation. If we need those guys, and we do, I'd rather have it be a guy that the organization knows what they have in that player instead of importing vets on expiring contracts like McQuaid.

I mean, I understand the opposing point of view. I really do and I don't have a problem with Hayes going to Winnipeg or McQuaid to Columbus. I think Zooks is a special teammate and a guy who really just wanted to be here for the rest of his career and, to me, the return wasn't worth the loss.

And what if he resigns and we got a free 2nd rounder that is used to move up and grab this years K’andre Miller?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Boston with Chara and Savard for sure did. It’s definitely the less common way to build mainly because most GM’s overlay free agents and the players don’t live up to their new contracts and new roles.

Doesn’t mean that there are exceptions. Chara was an exception but it still happened. I also think LA deserves mention, they were UFA but they rebuilt by acquiring veteran players in trades to supplement their young players. Chicago did too with Hossa.

It’s about striking that balance. Getting the right guys, not overpaying guys who won’t live up their new roles.

LA didn't really go crazy on the UFA market.

Anyone who those teams brought into augment their teams only really did so after the core players on those teams (Doughty, Kopitar,Brown and Kane/Towes/Keith) were already playing.

But you're right about the Bruins so allow me rephrase it, no one has won building the way that some want them to except for the one team who signed a genetic freak, hit on basically their entire 2006 draft, already had their franchise center playing NHL games and their #2 center drafted.

I think I should mention that had Toronto not given them a pair of top 10 (one of them being a 2OA) picks, their run at the top of the East would have been very short lived. Neither contributed significantly to their cup, but their window would have been much, much shorter otherwise.

Kind of like ours, except they were fortunate enough to face an incredibly banged up Vancouver team, while we had Dan O Hallaran allowing the Kings to basically jump on Hank.

 

[I Eat Crow]

People here dont seem to understand this.

I think it’s ok to sign a player that starts in 19-20 in anticipation of the team making strides in 20-21, so long as that player is capable of being one of those big pieces.

Agreed. Signing a big UFA isn't totally about next season, it's about 2020-21 and the years after when we will have added even more picks, prospects, and hopefully guys like Andersson, Howden, Chytil, Kravtsov etc become key pieces or useful trade pieces. Add in expiring contracts of Smith, Staal, Shattenkirk, Hank, Namestnikov, Strome and the Rangers will have so much cap space even with a Karlsson/Panarin.

This is the point I've been trying to make here. The Rangers wouldn't be signing Panarin or Karlsson for th4 upcoming year. It'll be for in year 3 or 4 of those deals that the Rangers will be looking for them to earn their money. Both are still going to be impact players. I'm not as concerned as others here are about Karlsson's play especially dipping.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Scenario: Rangers win the lottery.

Draft Hughes. Sign Panarin. Reup Kreider. Trade Names. Andersson + for McAvoy.

Kreider - Zbad - Kravstov
Panarin - Hughes - Chytil
Lemieux- Howden - Fast
Vesey - Strome - Boo

Skjei - McAvoy
Hajek - ADA
Staal - Shattenkirk

Lundqvist
Sheshyorkin (or however its spelt this week)

 

[QJL]

Scenario: Rangers win the lottery.

Draft Hughes. Sign Panarin. Reup Kreider. Trade Names. Andersson + for McAvoy.

Kreider - Zbad - Kravstov
Panarin - Hughes - Chytil
Lemieux- Howden - Fast
Vesey - Strome - Boo

Skjei - McAvoy
Hajek - Shattenkirk
Staal - XXXX

Lundqvist
Sheshyorkin (or however its spelt this week)

This would be great if:

- Our best defenseman didn’t disappear from the roster
- The Nam-Lias package would get remotely close to acquiring McAvoy (it’s not close)

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

This would be great if:

- Our best defenseman didn’t disappear from the roster
- The Nam-Lias package would get remotely close to acquiring McAvoy (it’s not close)

Knew i forgot someone! Push Shattenkirk down add D'Angelo in.

Trade would be Andersson plus 1st round pick and other prospect(s), not Names.

Something like Andersson, Lundkvist and Jets #1