Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXVIII

[GoAwayPanarin]

Justification being that we are trying to resign them?

It’s just not smart imo

Teams know we are going to trade them. We do. The players do. I get the posturing to gain (more) significant returns but u can certainly do a lot more damage by being unable to trade an injured player in less than a week.

It’s too risky. Leak another story about signing them (but holding them out) unless someone blows us away w an offer.

They’ll be 6 days out from the TDL when they play again, it’s easily time for them to hold them out.

But the second you pull them, you lose the leverage you were trying to gain from the plant. I thought for sure that they’d be pulled for the last 3 games, now I’m
Pretty certain they’ll be playing until they’re moved.

 

[offdacrossbar]

One week out from the deadline. I'm going against the grain here. I'd rather re-sign Hayes--move Zucc and McQuaid and maybe one of Namestnikov or Buchnevich. Hayes is still kind of young and seems to be getting better from year to year. The Rangers don't have a guy ready to take over as a 2C--Howden had been in a major scoring slump before his injury--almost all of Chytil's offense has come off the wing and he needs more work defensively and he's crap on face-offs. Since going down to Hartford Andersson's game has gone way south to the point I wonder whether he's playing hurt but I don't think he's a lock to play all of next year with the Rangers. A late 1st would have to have a really really good prospect add IMO to even make it worthwhile giving up Hayes and I'm not sure that's going to happen. The Rangers will regress further next year if they don't have a decent 2nd line and Hayes is the guy who has been carrying it. It pushes the rebuild even further back IMO.

wow

welcome to the dark side fellow upstate nyer. been saying this for awhile now.

momentum is building. i think the hayes thing will eventually work that way. the return won't warrant the trade. if the idea is to get better, then trading hayes for peanuts makes zero sense. hes earned his contract. hes about as good a 2C out there for the money he will get.

trade zucc for a rental return, 2nd and a prospect and then look to resign him in the summer. hes the motor for a top 6 scoring line. if the money is there, i want him back.

bottom line for hayes is this. most here want to value him as a tweener 2/3C who scores 50 points but they all want his value on the market to return high end 2C value. cant have it both ways.

relying on this team to draft us into contention is a mistake.

keep in mind, only 5 players in our top 15 scorers this season were OUR draft picks. out forward depth is weak at best now, remove 13 and 36 and its dire. there are like zero high end forwards in this entire organization that arent already here save kravtsov. let that sink in.

this team hasn't drafted any forward talent other than 72 and kravtsov and perhaps LA in forever. brutal.

13 stays. signs a fair market deal and we build around 13, 20 and 93.

i mean really, 13 and 93 have posted this slash line this year.

pretty f***ing solid imo.

4o goals. 60 assists, 100 points in 48 games played.

just for comparison.

nashville preds
johan and forsberg
31 goals. 59 assists. 90 points.

washington caps
backs and kuz
28 goals. 81 assists. 109 points

pitts pens
crosby and malkin
43 goals. 90 assists. 133 points.

why cant we win with 13 and 93 as out top 2 pivots ? and lets be honest here, 13 and 93 arent playing with nearly the talent of those other teams.

move on from players like vesey fast strome and names and McQuaid and smith and shatty- if poss. build around this core.

93
20
13
76
89- yes i keep him and let him keep developing.
44
77
21
72

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

except he's not going to sign to a fair market deal

Why would he do that. He could go to the open market and get 6 years and almost 7 million

They missed their chance to re-sign him last summer. It's time to move on

 

[SA16]

Looking around the league, there are so many players well above a ppg it's insane. It doesn't mean what it once did. It's all about relative to competition.

There are 39 guys at or above a ppg this season
Last year there were 24

Last year:
Hayes was 158th in points per game
Hayes was 192nd in points per 60 minutes

This year:
Hayes is 70th in terms of points per game
He's 89th in points per 60 minutes played

It's a clear improvement, but is he an ideal #2C?

Scoring is actually not up that much this year.

2016-17 - 5.45 goals/game
2017-18 - 5.86 goals/game
2018-19 - 6.04 goals/game

It is up less from last year to this year than it was from two years ago to last year. By half.

However the reason that more players are PPG and having big years this year is largely just because teams are giving their top players more ice time than they did in the past.

The top 30 forwards in scoring this year are averaging 20.41 TOI/GP

Last year it was 19.75

The year before that it was 18.97

 

[Off Sides]

I'm not sure how much leverage the "if we don't like the returns we'll just extend them" thing really provides.

If anything I'd assume that is more of the Rangers covering their bases in case the player decides to drop his demand in an extension to the point that next contract would be more valuable than trading them as a pending UFA.

 

[Leetch3]

I'm not sure how much leverage the "if we don't like the returns we'll just extend them" thing really provides.

If anything I'd assume that is more of the Rangers covering their bases in case the player decides to drop his demand in an extension to the point that next contract would be more valuable than trading them as a pending UFA.

I don't think it gains you any leverage in a trade right now. Its more about weighing the value of trading them vs keeping them (and possibly trading them down the road with term left)

 

[LORDE]

wow

welcome to the dark side fellow upstate nyer. been saying this for awhile now.

momentum is building. i think the hayes thing will eventually work that way. the return won't warrant the trade. if the idea is to get better, then trading hayes for peanuts makes zero sense. hes earned his contract. hes about as good a 2C out there for the money he will get.

trade zucc for a rental return, 2nd and a prospect and then look to resign him in the summer. hes the motor for a top 6 scoring line. if the money is there, i want him back.

bottom line for hayes is this. most here want to value him as a tweener 2/3C who scores 50 points but they all want his value on the market to return high end 2C value. cant have it both ways.

relying on this team to draft us into contention is a mistake.

keep in mind, only 5 players in our top 15 scorers this season were OUR draft picks. out forward depth is weak at best now, remove 13 and 36 and its dire. there are like zero high end forwards in this entire organization that arent already here save kravtsov. let that sink in.

this team hasn't drafted any forward talent other than 72 and kravtsov and perhaps LA in forever. brutal.

13 stays. signs a fair market deal and we build around 13, 20 and 93.

i mean really, 13 and 93 have posted this slash line this year.

pretty ****ing solid imo.

4o goals. 60 assists, 100 points in 48 games played.

just for comparison.

nashville preds
johan and forsberg
31 goals. 59 assists. 90 points.

washington caps
backs and kuz
28 goals. 81 assists. 109 points

pitts pens
crosby and malkin
43 goals. 90 assists. 133 points.

why cant we win with 13 and 93 as out top 2 pivots ? and lets be honest here, 13 and 93 arent playing with nearly the talent of those other teams.

move on from players like vesey fast strome and names and McQuaid and smith and shatty- if poss. build around this core.

93
20
13
76
89- yes i keep him and let him keep developing.
44
77
21
72

Can’t win with them as our pivots because there’s no one else here especially on the blue line... and by the time that blue line is even close Hayes will be declining at a premium price.

It’s bad timing. Not that he’s a bad player.

 

[Leetch3]

Can’t win with them as our pivots because there’s no one else here especially on the blue line... and by the time that blue line is even close Hayes will be declining at a premium price.

It’s bad timing. Not that he’s a bad player.

i think that is a key issue when it comes to keeping all of our players...how long will it take to fix the blueline so we can be a competitive team? today it makes little sense imo to consider trading kreider or zib...but if there is no path to fixing the blueline in the next 5 years than what is the value of holding onto them?

not trying to be all doom and gloom cause there is some promise in the pipelines but how many years before those guys are contributing? its really the big unknown right now.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'm not sure how much leverage the "if we don't like the returns we'll just extend them" thing really provides.

If anything I'd assume that is more of the Rangers covering their bases in case the player decides to drop his demand in an extension to the point that next contract would be more valuable than trading them as a pending UFA.

It creates some, at the least it gives the illusion that you don't "have" to trade these guys.

Maybe it is just JG doing his due diligence to see what exactly they're looking for but our management is so inept that I wouldn't be surprised that he actually wants to extend both players. They're like a bunch of fans here, not willing to go through the pain in order to give this team the best chance to succeed in the future #RB

 

[DutchShamrock]

i think that is a key issue when it comes to keeping all of our players...how long will it take to fix the blueline so we can be a competitive team? today it makes little sense imo to consider trading kreider or zib...but if there is no path to fixing the blueline in the next 5 years than what is the value of holding onto them?

not trying to be all doom and gloom cause there is some promise in the pipelines but how many years before those guys are contributing? its really the big unknown right now.

It's the catch 22. You may think these guys are good enough when the next wave makes it to the NHL. But the next wave won't be enough without more assets. You need to deal these guys now to get those assets.

It's been overlooked as we march toward the TDL, but this organization has done an excellent job with finding overlooked talent and college UFAs. Hayes and Vesey were had by recruiting. Pionk was a UFA. They got Girardi who was an afterthought. Strahlman was given up on. Roszivsl and Malik were not expected to run a first pair.

They have done well with reclaimations like Grabner and Pouliot.

The UFA market may be flooded with top notch talent. Teams will be throwing the bulk of the money there. The bottom level guys know they are getting minimum level contracts. The middle guys will get squeezed. They will be signing later than usual and the big bucks won't be there.

I'm not worried about 2nd line guys and 18 minute defenseman next year. A hole in these spots should be filled at a discount, assuming of course, these UFAs and RFAs flex their muscles. If not, we are stuck standing when the music stops. Then it's another lottery pick. This is the time to gamble by moving assets.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I have fewer reservations, and most of them are more about luck than ability of the staff. However, this team is going to be bad until they turn around the D and that's going to take some more time. At least 2 years. In my opinion, they're likely going to be worse next year than this year whether Hayes is here or not, unless something happens like Shesterkin comes over and has a rookie year like what Lundqvist had or Kravtsov comes over and has a rookie year like Pettersson is having. Not likely in either case. And that's okay. Next year has always been the bottom-out year in my mind, followed by a slow return to competitiveness.

Im in agreement there. Which begs the question why so many people want to keep Hayes around. It seems like it actually does more damage to keep this team on the outskirts of mediocrity.

 

[offdacrossbar]

there aint much help coming from hartford. its pretty barren there.

our best prospects are 1-3 years away depending. our best draft has been out last draft. help isnt close.

our closest nhl ready top player is shesty and we still have hank and georgie here.

this team is in for a dark period. thats a given.

i guess it comes down to trusting this scouting staff to draft impact players and develop from within however long that might take. the results to date have been somewhat disappointing.

pardon me if im only luke warm to the idea that more draft picks = better team.

as for trades for players, B level prospects are just that. the hajeks and howdens arent really gonna move the needle much for me.

 

[Off Sides]

It creates some, at the least it gives the illusion that you don't "have" to trade these guys.

Maybe it is just JG doing his due diligence to see what exactly they're looking for but our management is so inept that I wouldn't be surprised that he actually wants to extend both players. They're like a bunch of fans here, not willing to go through the pain in order to give this team the best chance to succeed in the future #RB

My guess, it gives the player his chance to drop to/towards whatever management is willing to go to.

If a clause was the hill too high, so to speak, perhaps that gets dropped at least to something like a clause that only covers a year or two or something that would still allow the Rangers to trade that player, just not as soon as the ink dried.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Im in agreement there. Which begs the question why so many people want to keep Hayes around. It seems like it actually does more damage to keep this team on the outskirts of mediocrity.

Fear of the unknown.

I could understand it if the team was more like a Minnesota, treading water near the 7th/8th PO spot, but given that they're challenging for a top-5 pick, I just don't get it myself.

 

[E-Train]

Im in agreement there. Which begs the question why so many people want to keep Hayes around. It seems like it actually does more damage to keep this team on the outskirts of mediocrity.

Seems as though there’s a panic, in some, to actually go through the rough part of the rebuild. I’m sure the same folks will complain about the perpetual mediocrity that will come with a half measure.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

I’d keep Hayes if he signs a reasonable contract within a week, he’s a good player who helps us. If not, auction him off

 

[FIRE DRURY]

this team is in for a dark period. thats a given.

What exactly were you expecting? A playoff team a year into our rebuild?

 

[Fitzy]

I'm all over keeping Hayes, but if they do that, they better start thinking of ways to get rid of the older players on the decline.

Realistically, you'd like strategies to have Shattenkirk, Staal, and Smith off the team by the end of next season.

Plus you have to account for the lost 1st and good prospect you'd get for Hayes.

 

[charliemurphy]

Hypothetical... what would Nashville trade for both Krieder and Zucc? Wondering what it would take to get both Tolvanen and Fabbro.

 

[Captain Monglobster]

Seems as though there’s a panic, in some, to actually go through the rough part of the rebuild. I’m sure the same folks will complain about the perpetual mediocrity that will come with a half measure.

Yea I’m not sure why people are trying to hold on to the idea that this team is knocking on the door, the only door they’re knocking on is for a lottery pick.

If you resign Hayes to a big contract, resign Zucc, add Panarin in the offseason, will they makes the POs next year? Even that is not a given. This team is so far away from being a Cup contender and the only way to get back there is to develop your own high end talent on cheap contracts. There’s no way around it, they need to get a franchise player in the draft be it this year, next year, or the year after. How do you do that? Acquire assets. Now you have leverage and flexibility to move up in the draft if needed. Don’t overspend on guys that won’t be here for the next cup run.

You don’t rebuild in one season. 3-5 years is more like it, and if not done right you get to see a new dark age. I trust Gorton and Quinn to do it right. No nostalgia here, identify the core and cull the rest of the herd.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I'm all over keeping Hayes, but if they do that, they better start thinking of ways to get rid of the older players on the decline.

Realistically, you'd like strategies to have Shattenkirk, Staal, and Smith off the team by the end of next season.

Plus you have to account for the lost 1st and good prospect you'd get for Hayes.

Part of me wants to keep Hayes. I just worry that Hayes it he type of guy who needs to constantly be playing for a contract in order to be as productive as he can be.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

If they trade Kreider, it better be an unprotected 1st rd pick for the 2020 draft and much more.

Byfield is the by far the most wanted talent I've ever witnessed. I need him on the Rangers badly! Mostly because I wouldn't want any other team having him.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Fear of the unknown.

I could understand it if the team was more like a Minnesota, treading water near the 7th/8th PO spot, but given that they're challenging for a top-5 pick, I just don't get it myself.

True. How about fear of the known, where the Rangers overpay player after player whose best years are largely already in the tank? That is much scarier to me than selling off Kevin Hayes.

 

[Winston2018]

Part of me wants to keep Hayes. I just worry that Hayes it he type of guy who needs to constantly be playing for a contract in order to be as productive as he can be.

The problem is the no trade or nmc. It is such a deterrent to future planning. So when you weigh all your options the NTC NMC is an anchor.

 

[Gardner McKay]

The problem is the no trade or nmc. It is such a deterrent to future planning. So when you weigh all your options the NTC NMC is an anchor.

I don't know how true this really is but I feel like it is fairly common knowledge that NMC/NTC's often help bring down the dollar value/cap hit of the contract. Players are willing to trade in some money for security. While that hurts you in the sense that you have a limited amount of teams you can trade with, it helps you in that the contract may be a bit easier to move.