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Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXIX

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Kreider is a tough trade to make, he falls in the limbo area where no trade is likely to bring back what he is worth(where I'd put McD too), yet the longer they wait the less return they'll likely get (where I'd put McD too). Any extension is going to be painful as well (again McD, is signed until he is 36)

It's kind of a no win situation no matter what they do.
 
NYR Viper said:
This may be true, however Kreider had the blood clot issue. I would venture a guess that McDonagh's body has seen more physical abuse than Kreider's has just on the basis of defense vs forward as far as shot blocking, etc.

Again, I'm not saying I would trade him, but IF Gorton traded him I could see the thought process.
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I’m of the mind the Kreider doesn’t have to be moved, and would be worth a six year, $7 million per deal, but, I understand trading him if Gorton gets overwhelmed. But, I’m also not putting my eggs in the Panarin/Stone basket to replace him, either.
 
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ZuccsFluffierFluffer said:
Well the elite players don't.

The sub elites, no matter how good, normally do. Kreider falls into that category.
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Will he suddenly forget how to stand in front of the net to screen goalies and deflect pucks once he turns 30? How many steps do you think he'll lose? So he goes from crazy fast to above average fast at 32. Is that the worst? The guy is in crazy shape, he's got at least another 5 years of above average play. And this isn't to say he can't be traded, but sometimes what you know you have is better than what you think you might have.
 
RGY said:
Yea but to his point Viper, even if Kreider loses a step, he would still be faster than a majority of the league. A large majority. So yes I uthink he can be effective well into his 30s.
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Plus, even if he's no longer a speed demon, Kreider has evolved into an elite net front player. He can do that forever.
 
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Off Sides said:
Kreider is a tough trade to make, he falls in the limbo area where no trade is likely to bring back what he is worth(where I'd put McD too), yet the longer they wait the less return they'll likely get (where I'd put McD too). Any extension is going to be painful as well (again McD, is signed until he is 36)

It's kind of a no win situation no matter what they do.
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I somewhat disagree:

1. McD had more wear and tear than Kreider and plays a position that wears you down significantly more. He was probably playing double the amount of time Kreider was at the beginning of their careers.

2. I think there is a very strong argument to be made that McD's best years were behind him (although still a good player), whereas Kreider's are very likely in front of him. The end of the contract could very well spell disaster, but I think signing him to 6-7 years, at least 3-4 of those you can expect similar, if not better production to what he is giving now.

That said, I still think they should just burn it down completely and go all-in on for a top 3 pick. If Kreider can bring back a fantastic package, like a -- 1st, very good prospect, B prospect, some other mix of picks or maybe young B-Level NHL player -- I'd move him.
 
ZuccsFluffierFluffer said:
Excellent way to ensure that you stay mediocre.
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How? How can you be so sure of that?

If they fall and are able to draft one of Kakko/Hughes...how is that so definite that adding a Panarin who has elite talent to the roster ensures mediocrity? Bringing back Hayes. Maybe its not EK but you add a defenseman to stabilize it more. What if the Hank/Shesty tandem is dynamite? Do we continue to blame Hank for holding us back from “tanking”? What if Chytil/Howden/Lias take the next step? What if they end up with Tolvanen too?

I just dont see how it is so definitive this team wont be competitive next year if they end up with certain pieces at this deadline and the draft.
 
RGY said:
How? How can you be so sure of that?

If they fall and are able to draft one of Kakko/Hughes...how is that so definite that adding a Panarin who has elite talent to the roster ensures mediocrity? Bringing back Hayes. Maybe its not EK but you add a defenseman to stabilize it more. What if the Hank/Shesty tandem is dynamite? Do we continue to blame Hank for holding us back from “tanking”? What if Chytil/Howden/Lias take the next step? What if they end up with Tolvanen too?

I just dont see how it is so definitive this team wont be competitive next year if they end up with certain pieces at this deadline and the draft.
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Well... not a single thing you mentioned there fixes the defense, which is what’s going to hold this team back from competitiveness until it’s fixed.
 
UFA season is always crazy, taking that into account I do wonder if the contract extension ask from Kreider is going to be higher than most are expecting.

I mean at that point, should it get that far, are his options not going to be test the market or sign something comparable to whatever last years market provided to comparable players? If Skinner, Nyquist, end up ~7M in cap hit this UFA season, If Panarin/Stone ends up at ~10M, where does that put Kreider's ask after seeing that transpire?
 
RGY said:
How? How can you be so sure of that?

If they fall and are able to draft one of Kakko/Hughes...how is that so definite that adding a Panarin who has elite talent to the roster ensures mediocrity? Bringing back Hayes. Maybe its not EK but you add a defenseman to stabilize it more. What if the Hank/Shesty tandem is dynamite? Do we continue to blame Hank for holding us back from “tanking”? What if Chytil/Howden/Lias take the next step? What if they end up with Tolvanen too?

I just dont see how it is so definitive this team wont be competitive next year if they end up with certain pieces at this deadline and the draft.
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Our defense sucks ass. They will suck ass next year too. If we re-sign Hayes and sign Panarin, and draft Kakko, our defense is still a steaming pile of horse ****.

This team will not take the next step until we stabilize our blue line. Gorton has traded for ADA, Hajek, Rykov, and Lindgren. He signed Claesson and Pionk. He's drafted 8 dmen in the last two drafts. This group of dmen are years away.

Why are we locking ourselves into long-term contracts that will absolutely have some sort of NMC/NTC right now?

The quick fix, accelerated rebuild nonsense is what Sather did in 2004 and it's what a lot of you guys want to do in 2019. We started our rebuild a year ago. Let's develop some patience and see this rebuild through the right way.
 
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Off Sides said:
UFA season is always crazy, taking that into account I do wonder if the contract extension ask from Kreider is going to be higher than most are expecting.

I mean at that point, should it get that far, are his options not going to be test the market or sign something comparable to whatever last years market provided to comparable players? If Skinner, Nyquist, end up ~7M in cap hit this UFA season, If Panarin/Stone ends up at ~10M, where does that put Kreider's ask after seeing that transpire?
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If he asks for something crazy, you trade him in the summer. The 2020 draft is gonna be lit apparently. I don't know the rules but would it be crazy to assume that Gorton has already touched based with his agent?
 
RGY said:
How? How can you be so sure of that?

If they fall and are able to draft one of Kakko/Hughes...how is that so definite that adding a Panarin who has elite talent to the roster ensures mediocrity? Bringing back Hayes. Maybe its not EK but you add a defenseman to stabilize it more. What if the Hank/Shesty tandem is dynamite? Do we continue to blame Hank for holding us back from “tanking”? What if Chytil/Howden/Lias take the next step? What if they end up with Tolvanen too?

I just dont see how it is so definitive this team wont be competitive next year if they end up with certain pieces at this deadline and the draft.
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Defense still blows, not good enough up front and our goalie is aging.

Don't get the obsession with trying to skips steps 3 and 4 in a 5 step process when this team is some where in between steps 1 and 2 and really should take a half step back.
 
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RGY said:
How? How can you be so sure of that?

If they fall and are able to draft one of Kakko/Hughes...how is that so definite that adding a Panarin who has elite talent to the roster ensures mediocrity? Bringing back Hayes. Maybe its not EK but you add a defenseman to stabilize it more. What if the Hank/Shesty tandem is dynamite? Do we continue to blame Hank for holding us back from “tanking”? What if Chytil/Howden/Lias take the next step? What if they end up with Tolvanen too?

I just dont see how it is so definitive this team wont be competitive next year if they end up with certain pieces at this deadline and the draft.
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Yea -- in a world where every single thing goes our way, then sure, we could POSSIBLY compete. For that to happen we would need:

1. To get lucky by tanking the rest of this year (won't happen with Hayes and Zucc in the fold and may not regardless of whether they remain on this team). Additionally, needing to do well in the lottery. This alone doesn't look rosy right now.

2. Assume if we trade Hayes he will come back willingly. That's a huge assumption. And if we just keep him, there's no way #1 is happening unless he or ZBad gets hurt.

3. What D-Man is fixing this garbage defense? We need 2-3 D-Men and probably a high end one, or at least someone who can eat first pairing minutes, to at least be competitive. We don't have that anywhere right now.

4. Hank and Shesty is probably the most plausible of all your scenarios actually panning out next season.

5. Chytil/Howden/Lias. It seems highly unlikely that the 3 of them will each take the step necessary to boost the Rangers in your eyes next year. Chytil probably has the best chance. Howden did little to impress me outside of the first month and I'm at the point where I have serious doubts about when he'll be ready. Lias hasn't been playing to well since his return to the AHL, so I also don't see where he, Chytil and Howden all of a sudden are playing prominent roles on this team next year. Seems to be a pipe dream that will be realized in 2-4 years, if ever.
 
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Pawnee Rangers said:
If he asks for something crazy, you trade him in the summer. The 2020 draft is gonna be lit apparently. I don't know the rules but would it be crazy to assume that Gorton has already touched based with his agent?
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It's a timing thing

They can not officially extend him until this July 1st, which is after this trade deadline and after the 2019 draft.

Post those two events he has one year left on his contract, at which point if sold one for one he is likely going to return rental like stuff, late 1st, maybe a decent prospect.

So even if the 2020 draft is better, it's still a late 1st likely being about it.

I do not know what Kreider's trade value is right now, yet if they wait we can have a pretty good guess at what it will be next deadline.
 
Off Sides said:
It's a timing thing

They can not officially extend him until this July 1st, which is after this trade deadline and after the 2019 draft.

Post those two events he has one year left on his contract, at which point if sold one for one he is likely going to return rental like stuff, late 1st, maybe a decent prospect.

So even if the 2020 draft is better, it's still a late 1st likely being about it.

I do not know what Kreider's trade value is right now, yet if they wait we can have a pretty good guess at what it will be next deadline.
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I'm not sure this is true. If you trade him at the deadline this year, that first will definitely be late. If you trade him at the start of next season, who knows where the team that traded for him ends up.
 
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