Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXII

[brakeyawself]

What is there to see? We've seen.

Are we waiting around to see if they can sneak a championship and then proclaim victory on the "see you don't need a 1C," argument?

Why would that change anything? So 1 team in like the last 20 years would have managed to do it, and they had tremendous difficulty getting over the hump?

Sign me up!!!

Or, you know, we could emulate the best teams who won multiple cups and go get a god damn young 1C.

I am not sure what you consider a 1C..... there's a wholly different argument if we are talking about the "necessity" of guys like Zibs, or Eichel or Crosby or whatever compared to Ryan O'Reilly or Backstrom.

Every team in the NHL actually HAS a 1C. But they come in all different levels and sizes. Staal was decent when he won with Carolina, but not on the level of the guys we are talking about. The Devils had Nieuweindyk and I don't even remember. Oh Gomez. Eh, Gomez was pretty good.

Of course you need a center. But we are talking about a pretty wide range that includes all variety. i mean as good as Larkin is, he's not as good as Ziban in his prime.

 

[mas0764]

I mean Drury’s options are slowly drying up.

Mika is gonna bend him over a barrel if he has a great season and they don’t make a move for another center

Don't be held hostage. Trade him and move on. Chase young prospect centers. The Kings have tons.

 

[brakeyawself]

Yeah but I'm positing that Tampa probably doesn't win with Stamkos as their 1C.

So maybe we can sign a crippling cap deal with Mika and then luck into our own Point like they did, but I'm not counting on it. It certainly isn't going to be my plan that I have to find a 90 point center with a 20-something first round pick.

Point is a terrific player who I would take on the Rangers in a second. But I don't think he's a 90 point player on most NHL teams either. And Cirelli is, IMO, a bit overrated. At least last season, he didn't play so well during the regular season. Point does what he needs to on that team. And he's probably better than a few other Stanley Cup centers over the past 20 seasons, but he's probably mid range for that.

 

[Tawnos]

It's a terrible idea to hitch our wagon to Zibanejad for 8 years because history will be entirely against us winning a Cup in that circumstance.

It's also a huge uphill battle that we haven't added even low-end Stepan-like 1C options to our system yet. Huge, huge miss, and the biggest indictment of the Gorton regime was their failure to get creative with the stable of defensive talent they had, not to be able to land a future 1C.

I think they likely would have had they stayed. That stable of defensive talent is only starting to come into focus now.

 

[brakeyawself]

Don't be held hostage. Trade him and move on. Chase young prospect centers. The Kings have tons.

That's what I'm saying. Send them Lundkvist and a protected 1st and just get Turcotte over here. Or Vilardi, or even Kupari. Hell, they might not even need to move Lundkvist to get Kupari, it might cost Jones. Or see if the Jets will move Perfetti or PLD. They have Scheifele, just drafted Lucius. Maybe they can send one of the other 2.

 

[Fitzy]

You get the vibe that every franchise wants to hold onto it's blue chip prospects and isn't in a hurry to move them, even for fair value.

You see that happen a lot more with B prospects like Keane and Gauthier than you do guys on Vilardi and Lundkvists level.

We really made a big mistake when we whiffed on both Howden and Andersson

 

[brakeyawself]

Those "possibilities" only work if they end up with us having a 1C who can keep Lafreniere and Kakko's window open, instead of it ending in 2 years when Zibanejad declines.

And the importing Malkin or Bergeron ideas are not getting us anywhere. Those guys at their advanced ages are only going to be supplementary players, not drivers. We need a legit 1C. He doesn't need to carry the offense but then he will need to win matchups at a 1C pace in other areas like ROR and Toews did/do.

Ok, so lets bring back JT Miller. I would say let's get Horvat, but they are never moving him . Personally, I think Horvat would be absolutely ideal. And he's not a superstar or close. But he brings everything we need out of a center really, with the other pieces we have.

 

[mas0764]

I am not sure what you consider a 1C..... there's a wholly different argument if we are talking about the "necessity" of guys like Zibs, or Eichel or Crosby or whatever compared to Ryan O'Reilly or Backstrom.

Every team in the NHL actually HAS a 1C. But they come in all different levels and sizes. Staal was decent when he won with Carolina, but not on the level of the guys we are talking about. The Devils had Nieuweindyk and I don't even remember. Oh Gomez. Eh, Gomez was pretty good.

Of course you need a center. But we are talking about a pretty wide range that includes all variety. i mean as good as Larkin is, he's not as good as Ziban in his prime.

Point per game or nearly point per game offensive dominance combined with excellent if not Selke level defense.

I do not think we get that from Zibanejad in 2-3 years. I think he's gonna age poorly. He'd be fine if the goal was to win this year, but that's kind of a pipe dream.

I think the problem here might be that you don't really know or understand your history. Eric Staal wasn't "decent," when he won with the Canes, he scored like 100 points.

Yeah, ok, the Devils. That's about as far as we have to go back in history to find a relevant example. We're talking 2002, literally like 20 years ago now.

 

[brakeyawself]

You get the vibe that every franchise wants to hold onto it's blue chip prospects and isn't in a hurry to move them, even for fair value.

You see that happen a lot more with B prospects like Keane and Gauthier than you do guys on Vilardi and Lundkvists level.

We really made a big mistake when we whiffed on both Howden and Andersson

I think a lot of our forward drafting was terrible. And because of our need it really blew my mind that we took Othmann over Lucius, or even, I don't know, like 5 other centers that were available. But for some reason we have an allergy to developing a good center. The best we could do is a "project" like Chytil, who still might turn out, but he will be an outlier.

This was the year to add a center through the draft IMO. Or at least, once we had Othmann, do whatever you could to trade into the 2nd round to grab one of the 4-5 good C prospects that fell. Hell, Islanders need a LD, let's send them Tuomanen and a 2nd for Raty or something.

 

[brakeyawself]

Point per game or nearly point per game offensive dominance combined with excellent if not Selke level defense.

I do not think we get that from Zibanejad in 2-3 years. I think he's gonna age poorly. He'd be fine if the goal was to win this year, but that's kind of a pipe dream.

Nah, I don't think we need PPG type guy as much as the complete player and top defense. At least I would lean more towards the Selke side than the PPG side. Which is why I suggest a guy like Horvat would be great. We have enough high end offensive talent to build around. Now we need more of the glue to hold it together and direct it properly. Realistically, if we stuck a 60 point player who has chemistry with our wingers, they could jump up to 70-ppg without naturally being that kind of point producer.

 

[mas0764]

Ok, so lets bring back JT Miller. I would say let's get Horvat, but they are never moving him . Personally, I think Horvat would be absolutely ideal. And he's not a superstar or close. But he brings everything we need out of a center really, with the other pieces we have.

Horvat is a 2C in my estimation.

 

[brakeyawself]

Point per game or nearly point per game offensive dominance combined with excellent if not Selke level defense.

I do not think we get that from Zibanejad in 2-3 years. I think he's gonna age poorly. He'd be fine if the goal was to win this year, but that's kind of a pipe dream.

I think the problem here might be that you don't really know or understand your history. Eric Staal wasn't "decent," when he won with the Canes, he scored like 100 points.

Yeah, ok, the Devils. That's about as far as we have to go back in history to find a relevant example. We're talking 2002, literally like 20 years ago now.

Point is he was good for a short window. And then he wasn't. And everyone keeps acting like ROR is on that level. He's not. He does everything well, and is great at faceoffs but he's not a regular ppg guy. And Backstrom wouldn't get nearly the assists he gets without playing with Ovechkin I think.

 

[Fitzy]

JT Miller has the exact same set of holes and strengths in his game as Ryan Strome.

Like with Monahan, I'd rather just keep the devil we know with the proven chemistry.

 

[brakeyawself]

Horvat is a 2C in my estimation.

He's a 2C when you have Pettersson maybe. He'd be a 1C for us without Zibby and I think he'd be just fine in that rol.e.

 

[brakeyawself]

JT Miller has the exact same set of holes and strengths in his game as Ryan Strome.

Like with Monahan, I'd rather just keep the devil we know with the proven chemistry.

Miller plays a way more physical game than Strome. I wouldn't say he's a Selke candidate, but he's a more complete player than Strome.

I don't know why everyone hates Monahan so much. I mean, he's not ideal no. And I would much rather have Lindholm from that team, but Monahan isn't bad.

 

[brakeyawself]

JT Miller has the exact same set of holes and strengths in his game as Ryan Strome.

Like with Monahan, I'd rather just keep the devil we know with the proven chemistry.

What about a guy like PLD? He plays physical, he's got some intangibles. I don't think he's a PPG player. But I think he'd be well suited for 1C with the talent we have.

 

[mas0764]

Nah, I don't think we need PPG type guy as much as the complete player and top defense.

Ok, again, history tells you that you are dead wrong.

I don't know how you are making this so difficult.

No one has done it. You do need it in today's NHL. You need a top center. It helps if you have two top centers, frankly (Detroit, Pittsburgh, Washington, Boston). If you don't, you generally need a top guy and excellent depth (Kings, Lightning). Occasionally we have seen a team win with only one elite center, but that center was still basically PPG and elite defensively (St. Louis with ROR, 0.94 ppg, Blackhawks with Toews, 0.89, 1.02, and 0.81 ppg).

Not sure what is so hard about this. We do need a PPG guy at center. The end.

And while that is Zibanejad right now, it's not going to be for long. Yet we have Kakko and Lafreniere with these massive, gaping windows. We need a center for them, unless we don't care about winning cups when they are 25.

At least I would lean more towards the Selke side than the PPG side.

Well that puts you in the minority approach, but at least it has proven to be viable to win that way.

Conversely I will admit it's not likely that we find a Crosby and a Malkin at this stage so we probably have to try to emulate the Hawks a little more.

But if we could land like, a Lundell and a Krebs, as a hypothetical, I would consider that, with Chytil, enough saturation to feel like we probably at least have the "excellent depth at center," part covered and roll with that.

 

[Tob]

brakey single handedly carrying the quiet final stretch in August and making it more interesting

 

[brakeyawself]

Ok, again, history tells you that you are dead wrong.

I don't know how you are making this so difficult.

No one has done it. You do need it in today's NHL. You need a top center. It helps if you have two top centers, frankly (Detroit, Pittsburgh, Washington, Boston). If you don't, you generally need a top guy and excellent depth (Kings, Lightning). Occasionally we have seen a team win with only one elite center, but that center was still PPG and elite defensively (St. Louis, Blackhawks).

Not sure what is so hard about this. We do need a PPG guy at center. The end.

And while that is Zibanejad right now, it's not going to be for long. Yet we have Kakko and Lafreniere with these massive, gaping windows. We need a center for them, unless we don't care about winning cups when they are 25.



Well that puts you in the minority approach, but at least it has proven to be viable to win that way.

Conversely I will admit it's not likely that we find a Crosby and a Malkin at this stage so we probably have to try to emulate the Hawks a little more.

But if we could land like, a Lundell and a Krebs, as a hypothetical, I would consider that, with Chytil, enough saturation to feel like we probably at least have the "excellent depth at center," part covered and roll with that.

No it doesn't Patrice Bergeron isn't a PPG guy most years. He's a Selke candidate and does everything else well.

These guys show us it's possible to win without a PPG 1C. Like ROR.

You are flat out ignoring the teams that have done it and are stating I'm the one that is ignoring history. They be ultimately be outliers, but they show it's not impossible.

We don't need a PPG center. You are wrong. The END.

 

[mas0764]

Point is he was good for a short window. And then he wasn't. And everyone keeps acting like ROR is on that level. He's not. He does everything well, and is great at faceoffs but he's not a regular ppg guy. And Backstrom wouldn't get nearly the assists he gets without playing with Ovechkin I think.

But I said to win you need a 1C playing at a 1C level.

ROR was on that level when the Blues won.

Interestingly, perhaps you are making my point. ROR is not really on that elite level even though he played elite that year and they won.

Conversely, the Blues don't look like they are going back any time soon.

So to repeat.... you really do need the truly elite guys, like Toews, Crosby, etc.

 

[Ola]

@Edge Let Zib walk and stay away from Eichel, sounds like management is about to make a wise decision. Model the team after Tampa.

-Move Laf to center Panarin. That is one line. Laf and Panarin = Point and Kuch.

-Have a hard skating heavy line with say Kreider-Chytil-Kravy. Matches Cirelli’s line.

-Goodrow and Kakko forms 2/3 of another line. Goodrow and Kakko can easily do what Goodrow and Coleman did.

Get a center that can do what Gourde did for Tampa. Get a RHS that can take FOs that can play with Panarin and Laf.

This lineup could potentially contend and it shouldn’t be impossible to fill the 2x’s.
Panarin-Laf-X
Goodrow-X-Kakko
Kreider-Chytil-Panarin
Blais-Hunt-Reeves

 

[brakeyawself]

But I said to win you need a 1C playing at a 1C level.

ROR was on that level when the Blues won.

Interestingly, perhaps you are making my point. ROR is not really on that elite level even though he played elite that year and they won.

Conversely, the Blues don't look like they are going back any time soon.

So to repeat.... you really do need the truly elite guys, like Toews, Crosby, etc.

Of course, everything falls into place with your argument when you are proven wrong. First we need a PPG guy and then when I prove to you that it's possible without a regular PPG you claim "oh but they were playing like one".

UHhhhh yea. You need all your guys to step up and play over their heads to win a Cup. That's why McDavid and MacKinnon and Crosby don't win a Cup every year.

That doesn't prove you need a PPG guy. That proves you need your 1C to step up to win a cup.

Your only point is that you think we need something we do not.

Bergeron was a PPG player ONCE in his entire career I think.

And I think if you put a bunch of centers next to Ovi for their careers, they're going to get close to a PPG most years. Even if they wouldn't otherwise.

 

[Lays]

What about a guy like PLD? He plays physical, he's got some intangibles. I don't think he's a PPG player. But I think he'd be well suited for 1C with the talent we have.

PLD relies on his wingers too much to drive offense. I wouldn’t be surprised if he ended up a winger himself. Panarin stat padded him a bit in Columbus which made people overrate Dubois. He’d be a good fit with Panarin again even though they didn’t have the chemistry Panarin and Strome had, but you’re in trouble if you have Dubois as your 1C

 

[SA16]

Of course, everything falls into place with your argument when you are proven wrong. First we need a PPG guy and then when I prove to you that it's possible without a regular PPG you claim "oh but they were playing like one".

UHhhhh yea. You need all your guys to step up and play over their heads to win a Cup. That's why McDavid and MacKinnon and Crosby don't win a Cup every year.

That doesn't prove you need a PPG guy. That proves you need your 1C to step up to win a cup.

Your only point is that you think we need something we do not.

Bergeron was a PPG player ONCE in his entire career I think.

You are arguing with a wall. The simple fact is anyone who says you "need" a very specific type of player is just wrong. There are lots of good players who do lots of different things. There is more than one way to build a team. People who think like that will always come up with a narrative. First it's you need an elite 1C with selke level defense. Then it's no, you don't need that all year, you just need someone to step up and play like that during the playoffs, if a team doesn't have that then it'll be you need depth who can fill in and support on any line. It never ends.

 

[brakeyawself]

You are arguing with a wall. The simple fact is anyone who says you "need" a very specific type of player is just wrong. There are lots of good players who do lots of different things. There is more than one way to build a team.

LOl. Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it.