Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXII

[mas0764]

You say we need 1Cs to win. I'm asking what defines a 1C. You say 'who cares'?.

Actually, another poster said "You need a legit 1C to win."

You said "what's a legit 1c"

I then weighed in and gave you examples of the types of centers we should count on needing or having.

Making some arbitrary definition is pointless.

History has shown the kind of players you need. The best teams of the past decade have had combinations of

Stamkos/Point/Cirelli/Gourde
Crosby/Malkin
Kopitar/Carter/Richards
Krejci/Bergeron
Backstrom/Kuznetzov

The two teams that didn't have insane top end talent and depth at center is probably St. Louis and Chicago, and even Chicago had an unarguable Hall of Famer in nearly PPG Toews combined with Selke winning defense. Even ROR put up nearly ppg plus Selke-level defense.

Zibanejad is not on Toews or ROR's level for defense. I don't even know how long he will be able to continue at a PPG pace. We have a long way to go at center unless what we are aiming for is one year wonder St. Louis, but that's not what I'm trying to do.

I don't think the Rangers are going to stumble into any Crosby, Malkin or Toews any time soon, so it would be advisable for the Rangers to instead saturate their center depth with as many Krebs and Lundell types as possible to hope that they can eventually create a three deep lineup with defensively responsible, well rounded types where they can still dominate the game at center but have their wings producing the high-octane scoring with Panarin, Laf and Kakko. But they have a ways to go there, they basically only have Chytil for the long term, which is why the rebuild has been ended too early and why Buch should have been moved for a center or the picks to get a center.

 

[Thirty One]

nvm

 

[mas0764]

You do not need good #1 centers.

To win a Cup? Yes, you do.

This is one of the main fallacies. There are a lot of good centers in the league and generally since they are good that helps their team be good so you see teams with good centers win a lot.

Yes, this is all true. A lot of good centers "win a lot."

They don't win cups though.

Doesn't at all mean you need them. Vegas is perfectly fine without them.

Vegas hasn't won a Cup.

There is nothing to show. He played almost exclusively wing. I suppose you can look up the tweets of Erik Erlendsson/Bryan Burns/Joe Smith prior to each Lightning game and you will see he is always listed on wing in line rushes. I literally follow the line combinations of every team, every game, for the entire season. I can assure you it is extremely rare at this point for Stamkos to play center. It really only occurs if guys are injured or are they are losing and shaking things up.

So, when a center gets injured they can plug Stamkos in there instead, eh? So maybe Stamkos is playing wing because of the other embarrassment of riches they have at the position?

Interesting.

 

[SA16]

To win a Cup? Yes, you do.

Yes, this is all true. A lot of good centers "win a lot."

They don't win cups though.

Vegas hasn't won a Cup.

So, when a center gets injured they can plug Stamkos in there instead, eh? So maybe Stamkos is playing wing because of the other embarrassment of riches they have at the position?

Interesting.

Hopeless. Waste of time trying to discuss this when you already have preconceived notions and are concocting narratives around them.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I'll give Mika an 8x8 yesterday as long as the trade protection is right.

I also think at this point if the Rangers want to bolster their C depth they need to trade for a high-end prospect. High end D prospect for High end C prospect. LA as always makes the most sense in the world, but I'm sure there are others out there. Perfetti? Winnipeg have Scheifle and Dubois down the middle already and not a whole lot of high end defense prospects coming around. Could the Rangers put together a package to get Newhook from Colorado who are desperate to win while MacKinnon is being paid peanuts (not necessarily a D prospect for Newhook trade but something)? Would anyone take Duchene at 50% with a big time sweetener? I'm truly throwing shit at the wall at this point.

Can Rangers be bad enough to get a shot at Wright? My guess would be no but boy would that solve a lot of problems.

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

Maybe they'll void the neck man's contract in Buffalo. Well, they won't, but it would be funny

 

[haohmaru]

who said it wasn't a need?

You asked if it was. It is.

 

[mas0764]

Hopeless. Waste of time trying to discuss this when you already have preconceived notions and are concocting narratives around them.

You don't have anything to discuss. All you have said is "You don't need centers." What evidence do you have of this? Vegas? They haven't won a Cup. How do they help show that you don't need top centers to win a Cup?

Meanwhile I have every Cup winner the past 15 years on my side, if not longer.

Maybe you are the one who has concocted narratives and incorrect preconceived notions? You can't even support your hypothesis with a coherent argument before bowing out in two posts.

 

[dangsLITE]

is there any real chance that kravy or laf get a shot at center or is this pure hfnyr speculation?

 

[mas0764]

is there any real chance that kravy or laf get a shot at center or is this pure hfnyr speculation?

Seems to be mostly speculation at this point.

Of course I think it would be wise to try it out.

 

[brians1128]

is there any real chance that kravy or laf get a shot at center or is this pure hfnyr speculation?

Laf has a better shot at lining up at right wing next season 0ver the center position.

 

[NYR Viper]

I think the key to winning The Cup is to have a cohesive team that can overcome weaknesses of individual players by supporting them properly. If you have a more defensively minded 2-way center but can pair him with (2) ppg wingers than that will more than likely be successful. If you have a smaller puck moving d-man and pair him with a strong defensively sound partner they will more than likely be successful. There isn't (1) blueprint for how to win

 

[LokiDog]

Actually, another poster said "You need a legit 1C to win."

You said "what's a legit 1c"

I then weighed in and gave you examples of the types of centers we should count on needing or having.

Making some arbitrary definition is pointless.

History has shown the kind of players you need. The best teams of the past decade have had combinations of

Stamkos/Point/Cirelli/Gourde
Crosby/Malkin
Kopitar/Carter/Richards
Krejci/Bergeron
Backstrom/Kuznetzov

The two teams that didn't have insane top end talent and depth at center is probably St. Louis and Chicago, and even Chicago had an unarguable Hall of Famer in nearly PPG Toews combined with Selke winning defense. Even ROR put up nearly ppg plus Selke-level defense.

Zibanejad is not on Toews or ROR's level for defense. I don't even know how long he will be able to continue at a PPG pace. We have a long way to go at center unless what we are aiming for is one year wonder St. Louis, but that's not what I'm trying to do.

I don't think the Rangers are going to stumble into any Crosby, Malkin or Toews any time soon, so it would be advisable for the Rangers to instead saturate their center depth with as many Krebs and Lundell types as possible to hope that they can eventually create a three deep lineup with defensively responsible, well rounded types where they can still dominate the game at center but have their wings producing the high-octane scoring with Panarin, Laf and Kakko. But they have a ways to go there, they basically only have Chytil for the long term, which is why the rebuild has been ended too early and why Buch should have been moved for a center or the picks to get a center.

Zibanejad is a solid two-way center though, even if not on that level, and his offensive high-end is above Toews'. If you look at the Hawks, our approach should be:

Zibanejad :: Toews
Panarin :: Kane
Lafreniere :: Kane x2!
Kakko :: Hossa
Kreider :: Saad
Goodrow :: Shaw
Kravtsov :: Sharp ??
Fox :: Keith
Lindgren :: Hjalmarsson
Trouba :: Seabrook ??
Shesterking :: Crawford

The pieces are there. If the kids can grow into those projections - which is a tall order - it's a pretty comparable setup. You've got Miller, Lundkvist, Chytil, Blais to fill in for the other guys who made impacts. We have room to be better in some areas. And in some areas, like Trouba not being up to prime Seabrook level, we have depth in young guys with high ceilings to make up for it.

 

[Machinehead]

You can't win a Cup with a European captain. You can't win a Cup as a low seed. Until you can.

That's one reason I wouldn't have minded Vegas winning this year.

But Vegas was the #1 seed in the league and have a Canadian captain

 

[TheBloodyNine]

is there any real chance that kravy or laf get a shot at center or is this pure hfnyr speculation?

I'd personally put it at as close to zero as you can get.

 

[Thirty One]

But Vegas was the #1 seed in the league and have a Canadian captain

Just goes to show you how much not having two #1 centers can undermine you.

edit: I guess it might be unclear what I was saying. People used to say (here lots) that a low seed can't win the Cup, and that's why I was happy to see LA win it in 2012, so I didn't have to hear that anymore. Vegas winning with a ragtag group of centers would do the same for me.

 

[NYSPORTS]

is there any real chance that kravy or laf get a shot at center or is this pure hfnyr speculation?

Speculation b/c the players mentioned are very skilled, the wing positions are loaded while the center position is unsettled

 

[noupf]

Actually, another poster said "You need a legit 1C to win."

You said "what's a legit 1c"

I then weighed in and gave you examples of the types of centers we should count on needing or having.

Making some arbitrary definition is pointless.

History has shown the kind of players you need. The best teams of the past decade have had combinations of

Stamkos/Point/Cirelli/Gourde
Crosby/Malkin
Kopitar/Carter/Richards
Krejci/Bergeron
Backstrom/Kuznetzov

The two teams that didn't have insane top end talent and depth at center is probably St. Louis and Chicago, and even Chicago had an unarguable Hall of Famer in nearly PPG Toews combined with Selke winning defense. Even ROR put up nearly ppg plus Selke-level defense.

Zibanejad is not on Toews or ROR's level for defense. I don't even know how long he will be able to continue at a PPG pace. We have a long way to go at center unless what we are aiming for is one year wonder St. Louis, but that's not what I'm trying to do.

I don't think the Rangers are going to stumble into any Crosby, Malkin or Toews any time soon, so it would be advisable for the Rangers to instead saturate their center depth with as many Krebs and Lundell types as possible to hope that they can eventually create a three deep lineup with defensively responsible, well rounded types where they can still dominate the game at center but have their wings producing the high-octane scoring with Panarin, Laf and Kakko. But they have a ways to go there, they basically only have Chytil for the long term, which is why the rebuild has been ended too early and why Buch should have been moved for a center or the picks to get a center.

Thank you for making this post. Saved me 30 minutes of my day replying to the clowns on here who think you can win a cup with out top tier center talent.

To those arguing that it can be done without top tier center talent, sure it can.......anything is possible, but its WAY WAY WAY outside the norm, and lets be honest, we dont do so good when we operate outside the norm. I'd rather build onn something thats proven as opposed to hoping and praying that an outside the box formula MIGHT pay dividends.

Mika Zibanajed is the closest thing we have had to a legitimate 1st line center in alomst 20 years ( michael nylander gets an honorable mention in the 3 years he was a ranger back in 2005-2008 ). I'm fine with him as our 1C. He is a legitimate top tier first line center right now. We have the rest of the pieces......maybe needing a stronger 2c, but I think we are built for the future with Mika on the first line and the rest of the team growing into their respective roles.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Zibanejad is a solid two-way center though, even if not on that level, and his offensive high-end is above Toews'. If you look at the Hawks, our approach should be:

Zibanejad :: Toews
Panarin :: Kane
Lafreniere :: Kane x2!
Kakko :: Hossa
Kreider :: Saad
Goodrow :: Shaw
Kravtsov :: Sharp ??
Fox :: Keith
Lindgren :: Hjalmarsson
Trouba :: Seabrook ??

The pieces are there. If the kids can grow into those projections - which is a tall order - it's a pretty comparable setup.

Zibanejad WAS a solid 2 way center. His defensive game has gone from meh to bad to straight up butt.

Covid 100% had a part of it being hella butt last year, but its been getting worse even before that. Perhaps the coaching change will help, but I wouldn't throw him in a 2 way category.

I care less about his defense because he scores a shit load of goals, but they would be better served with a line that can handle heavier defensive matchups (Quinn tried this with him last year almost out of necessity, it didn't work and he stupidly stuck with it) with out creating an all out checking line (which don't really exist anymore, and I really hope that we don't try to do this.) This is the issue with Strome, because he doesn't defend well either and he isn't good enough everywhere else to really justify his role. I think Chytil could be that guy with his tool kit (and he was easily our best defensive C last year, but usage also had a part in that.)

They don't necessarily need a TRUE #1 CENTER AND DEPTH AT THE POSITION, but they do need to round out their skill set at the position. It'd probably be smartest to see if Chytil can handle more responsibility this upcoming season rather than trying to force Zib/Strome to do something we know they can't, but this is why they were in on Danault and would have dropped Strome had they signed him.

 

[duhmetreE]

You asked if it was. It is.

no.

 

[RangersFan1994]

 

[Thirty One]

Thank you for making this post. Saved me 30 minutes of my day replying to the clowns on here who think you can win a cup with out top tier center talent.

This post is mean and has the potential to hurt feelings.

Just thought you should be aware of the risks.

 

[noupf]

This post is mean and has the potential to hurt feelings.

Just thought you should be aware of the risks.

clowns make me smile.....where is the risk you speak of?

 

[Fitzy]

I think Goodrow will be taking a lot of the responsibilities of a shutdown center here, even if he doesn't necessarily line up at center. They paid for him to have an important role.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Just goes to show you how much not having two #1 centers can undermine you.

edit: I guess it might be unclear what I was saying. People used to say (here lots) that a low seed can't win the Cup, and that's why I was happy to see LA win it in 2012, so I didn't have to hear that anymore. Vegas winning with a ragtag group of centers would do the same for me.

Well moreover, nobody's a True Elite #1 Champion Center (TM) until they are. The Ducks won in '07 with Andy MacDonald as their 1C, Getzlaf broke out in the playoffs, but MacDonald played with Selanne throughout. Even Kopitar was never regarded as such until they won in 2012.

Also, I don't get it here at all... our 1C has scored 65 goals in his last 113 games, and he had COVID for a segment of them. I get he's no Toews in his own end, but seriously, is there another center in the NHL that can score goals at that pace right now?