Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXII

[NYRangers0723]

You’re right. This year I don’t think we are a Cup contender and it probably is too late to squeak into the playoffs. But the third line is a good example.

Chytil and Kakko are our third line. What do you think those two are going to be by next October? That age overnight almost they can turn into men. Chytil turning into a monster already. The guys currently on our third line are going to be beasts next year.

we have a ton of kids coming still. The actual selling off of core players has to end somewhere and then it’s about building back up and winning. Trading Kreider does not make us better today or tomorrow.

trading Strome when you have a Chytil behind him. Trading Buchnevich when you have a Kravtsov. Trading Staal when you have 5 guys behind him. That I understand.

trading Kreider with all that he brings no way. Does not help us become contenders anytime soon. We’ll be looking to find a top 6 left wing for years to replace what we’ve lost. Mark my words.

Good Post

 

[The New Russian Five]

Nobody said that he isn’t replaceable we said it will be difficult to replace him in the immediate future. Again think you are misinterpreting a lot. Nobody is saying we should just give him whatever he wants but it should let just be a foregone conclusion to trade him either

Why does Kreider need to be replaced in the immediate future though? Are we contending for a cup next season? I rather get someone like Kreider in 2-3 years when our core starts to get in their peaks. And the rangers have the assets to make such a move. In fact they have the assets to make several such moves. Needing someone like Kreider next year just doesn't make that much sense for me.

 

[NYRangers0723]

Why does Kreider need to be replaced in the immediate future though? Are we contending for a cup next season? I rather get someone like Kreider in 2-3 years when our core starts to get in their peaks. And the rangers have the assets to make such a move. In fact they have the assets to make several such moves. Needing someone like Kreider next year just doesn't make that much sense for me.

. Sigh lol

 

[Edge]

I hate the use of the term 'accelerated' because people say it to imply the rebuild is over and we are ready to go for it again and that isn't true. Panarin and Trouba make the current team better and also push kids down to put them into better roles but that helps progress the rebuild. it doesn't mean the rebuild is over. they have made the team fun to watch but I don't know how anyone looks at our 3rd and 4th lines and left side of the defense and says 'this team is ready to compete'.

I also have concerns about when things are "open."

I think this team could make the playoffs next year, but not really be in their open window, so to speak.

I think next year, like others have said, is a big step forward that should include making the playoffs, but there will be other moves coming as well.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

At the end of the day, I expect (and hope) Gorton to make the shrewd moves that will allow this team to be a powerhouse for the next decade

And that means not starting to push the chips in 2020 and try to win in an incredibly small window when the team is clearly not ready

 

[Kovalev27]

I can count on one hand how many times we’ve had elite players in their primes at the same time in the past 40 50 years. I could probably do it with 1 finger actually.

you guys that are like yeah but the rebuild. You have a 28 year old Panarin and 26 year old Mika. You’ve got 3 stars on the right side of your defense. The top scoring defense in the league. We win the Cup in 2014 if we had a semblance of this talent avail. Right now we should be saying hey we gotta keep this group in tact as best we can to get over the cap crunch next year. After that we are FINE. Plenty of cap space.

you know Mika and Kreider works and works really well. You’re going to break that up over 2 mil extra what might happen 5 years from now? Must be nice to have that kind of patience. Waiting for the next wave of superstar talent. If you’ve followed this team for decades you’d know it is few and far between for this organization

 

[The New Russian Five]

I also have concerns about when things are "open."

I think this team could make the playoffs next year, but not really be in their open window, so to speak.

I think next year, like others have said, is a big step forward that should include making the playoffs, but there will be other moves coming as well.

It's a process and in a process we need to be patience and make calculated risks. Signing Kreider long term now seems like a high risk move at a time when we shouldn't be making them.

 

[RGY]

The Rangers don't miss any of the players they have traded away in the last 3 plus years starting with Brassard for Zibanejad. Stepan. Nash. McDonagh. Miller. Hayes. Zuccarello. Is there any player the Rangers regret trading away? Nope.

Well this is BS. McDonagh isnt missed? As frustrating as he can be with some of his decision making on the ice, he would easily be our #1 LD next to Trouba. It would slot Skjei down or make it even more tolerable to trade him.

There is an argument that could be made for Miller as well.

Hayes/Zucc - meh. Could certainly use the depth at forward, however, Hayes returned Lemieux and ultimately Trouba. Zucc remains to be seen what who was and will be drafted with the picks but those returns wont be seen for a few years.

But complete BS they miss none of those players.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

People are in such a rush to define when this mystical window opens. Stuff changes every year. But why ruin what's working. They have two lethal combos right now. Why mess that up? You move Kreider and your top 6 is worse next season. You're not going to replace what he brings anytime soon. And all these names you guys are floating around are bottom 6 players. Is the guy they draft with a high 20s pick they got for him going to be ready in two years even? Move Skjei, move Buch, find the money. Buch doesn't have another level, this is his level. I don't give a crap how old he is.

 

[Leetch3]

You’re right. This year I don’t think we are a Cup contender and it probably is too late to squeak into the playoffs. But the third line is a good example.

Chytil and Kakko are our third line. What do you think those two are going to be by next October? That age overnight almost they can turn into men. Chytil turning into a monster already. The guys currently on our third line are going to be beasts next year.

we have a ton of kids coming still. The actual selling off of core players has to end somewhere and then it’s about building back up and winning. Trading Kreider does not make us better today or tomorrow.

trading Strome when you have a Chytil behind him. Trading Buchnevich when you have a Kravtsov. Trading Staal when you have 5 guys behind him. That I understand.

trading Kreider with all that he brings no way. Does not help us become contenders anytime soon. We’ll be looking to find a top 6 left wing for years to replace what we’ve lost. Mark my words.

I think our timeline is still and has always been tied to the contracts expiring next year (hank, staal, smith, shattenkirk's buyout)...this deadline and next offseason is about getting ready for that so assuming that a number of the kids progress you are ready to move to the next phase (with a ton of $$ freed up to fill holes)...

but to me the concern with kreider isn't the short term is the back end of the deal when you also have to give mika a raise, a bunch of the kids need new contracts etc. that's a potential nightmare and your 'just buy him out' theory isn't necessarily a solution cause you'd still have the dead space. normally I agree with you that teams don't worry about 5 years down the road but when giving out a 6+ year contract I think you do need to concern yourself with your projected cap situation.

 

[NYR Viper]

The financial flexibility + assets are better than a 29 year old Kreider signed for 7 years.

 

[Edge]

You’re right. This year I don’t think we are a Cup contender and it probably is too late to squeak into the playoffs. But the third line is a good example.

Chytil and Kakko are our third line. What do you think those two are going to be by next October? That age overnight almost they can turn into men. Chytil turning into a monster already. The guys currently on our third line are going to be beasts next year.

we have a ton of kids coming still. The actual selling off of core players has to end somewhere and then it’s about building back up and winning. Trading Kreider does not make us better today or tomorrow.

trading Strome when you have a Chytil behind him. Trading Buchnevich when you have a Kravtsov. Trading Staal when you have 5 guys behind him. That I understand.

trading Kreider with all that he brings no way. Does not help us become contenders anytime soon. We’ll be looking to find a top 6 left wing for years to replace what we’ve lost. Mark my words.

And why can't we look at a top six winger, and other things without Kreider?

I think the choices are we keep Kreider and that's our path forward, or we trade Kreider and sit pat with that we have.

I think there are many levels inbetween.

Why can't we flip the pick we get for Kreider, along with a prospect?

Or let Kravtsov make his push when he's there, rather than when we hope he's there?

For that matter, why can't we flip some of the above names and get a combination of wings and other depth pieces?

I don't think Kreider is the only path to go the direction you want.

 

[Leetch3]

i'm really torn on kreider much more than any of the players we dealt...I just can't decide if thats due to changes in the state of the team or just fan boying for CK. doesn't hurt that he doesn't have a webster lol

 

[RangerBoy]

Carl Hagelin.

EDIT: I know that was before 3 years ago, but I regret that the team traded him.

The Rangers didn't want pay Hagelin $16M over 4 years. The funny thing is Hagelin played on 4 teams under that contract. Anaheim gave him the contract. He was awful there. Anaheim traded him to Pittsburgh where he was very good. Pittsburgh traded him to LA where was OK. LA traded him to the Caps. Washington re-signed him this summer.

I liked Hagelin too. I don't know if the Rangers really missed him. It sucked seeing him win two Cups in Pittsburgh. That was awful. The Rangers made an awful trade with Anaheim. Hagelin was surprised the Rangers traded him. That was the summer of the Rangers front office transition from Sather to Gorton. They screwed up the Talbot trade too. Same day.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

The money isn't tight until you realize Zibanejad, Kakko, Fox and Kravstov will all need new deals the same summer. And Chytil, Igor and Buchnevich the summer before that

Plus you add in Lemuiex and DeAngelo if they sign to bridges this summer

 

[Edge]

The financial flexibility + assets are better than a 29 year old Kreider signed for 7 years.

And that's a big part of the argument.

If we sign Kreider, that will impact other moves.

It impacts what other contracts we take on, who we pursue, etc.

In other words, we're not signing Kreider, and then trading Buch for a player with a similar salary who plays a different position. We're trading him either a player with a lower salary, or we're trading him for the picks/prospects/lesser assets that we just talked about being beyond at this stage.

 

[NYR Viper]

I think people are looking to view the final product with this team a year or two early. As @Edge has pointed out there is absolutely no reason that the Rangers can't trade Kreider ad use those same assets, or others to acquire a specific player who fills a hole on this roster. Hell they did it this past off-season with Trouba.

 

[duhmetreE]

Probability is why I'm keeping Kreider. He affords us a skill that is not easily acquired. YET, his return from trade would be something we already have a lot of, could more affordably acquire, or do not need. Frederic and a late 1st?
Other bottom6 player with late 1st?

We can acquire those talents without giving up Kreider. I just dont see the value in it. If someone wants to give up a top prospect like a Newhook... that's a different story.

 

[Leetch3]

as we go back and forth. have there been any reports yet on contract negotiations with any of these guys? you don't necessarily need to have a new deal in place before the deadline but you better know you can reach a deal...

 

[NYRangers0723]

And why can't we look at a top six winger, and other things without Kreider?

I think the choices are we keep Kreider and that's our path forward, or we trade Kreider and sit pat with that we have.

I think there are many levels inbetween.

Why can't we flip the pick we get for Kreider, along with a prospect?

Or let Kravtsov make his push when he's there, rather than when we hope he's there?

For that matter, why can't we flip some of the above names and get a combination of wings and other depth pieces?

I don't think Kreider is the only path to go the direction you want.

Not saying you can’t do that but your way can be very risky as well. I liked Kravstov since before we drafted him but you never know he may not pan out like Lias. Yes you can flip assets but again who knows if that works. So either way can be risky. Like I said I’m not saying give Kreiser what he wants. If he wants a huge contract then fine by all means trade him. But if he loves it here and will take a little less then that makes it much harder

 

[The New Russian Five]

I can count on one hand how many times we’ve had elite players in their primes at the same time in the past 40 50 years. I could probably do it with 1 finger actually.

you guys that are like yeah but the rebuild. You have a 28 year old Panarin and 26 year old Mika. You’ve got 3 stars on the right side of your defense. The top scoring defense in the league. We win the Cup in 2014 if we had a semblance of this talent avail. Right now we should be saying hey we gotta keep this group in tact as best we can to get over the cap crunch next year. After that we are FINE. Plenty of cap space.

you know Mika and Kreider works and works really well. You’re going to break that up over 2 mil extra what might happen 5 years from now? Must be nice to have that kind of patience. Waiting for the next wave of superstar talent. If you’ve followed this team for decades you’d know it is few and far between for this organization

The irony is you say that the talent on the team needs to stay intact moving forward, but somehow you fail to see how signing Kreider makes it difficult to do that. For example, do you really think the rangers can keep Kreider and ADA?

Panarin and Mika aren't going anywhere. I expect them to play at close to their current levels for the next 4-5 years and even after that I expect them to play at a very high level. Also, just because we have the highest scoring defense, the best LW in the league, and excellent goaltending does it mean that current make up of the team is good. They still have the worst Corsi stats in the league and I believe the worst expected goal against stats in the last decade. There are many strengths to this team, yes, but the holes are hugely gaping and will need some time to fix and fill.

Again if this was 2-3 years from now and we were talking about Kreider in his current age, this would be a very different conversation. But that's not where we are at. I preach patience rather than try to rush things. The rangers have always tried to rush things and it never works. It's refreshing to see that they are being patient and opportunistic for once like they did in the last off season.

Kreider marks the last round asset in the "sell off." After that I see the team switching gears in terms of how they manage their accumulated assets. I expect the front office will start making aggressive maneuvers next year to make upgrades to the holes in this team.

 

[H00fHearted]

The Rangers don't miss any of the players they have traded away in the last 3 plus years starting with Brassard for Zibanejad. Stepan. Nash. McDonagh. Miller. Hayes. Zuccarello. Is there any player the Rangers regret trading away? Nope.

Ryan Graves.

 

[Edge]

Probability is why I'm keeping Kreider. He affords us a skill that is not easily acquired. YET, his return from trade would be something we already have a lot of, could more affordably acquire, or do not need. Frederic and a late 1st?
Other bottom6 player with late 1st?

We can acquire those talents without giving up Kreider. I just dont see the value in it. If someone wants to give up a top prospect like a Newhook... that's a different story.

Okay, and what if that late first is packaged in a Trouba like deal?

Or what if that late first is in line with Miller, or Lundkvist, or Chytil?

Or the possibility of taking the Kreider return, flipping other pieces and getting a player we need, while also spreading Kreider's salary out among re-signings, the salaries of those acquired by trade, and the ability to make other moves moving forward?

Why can't moving Kreider be the end of the one sentence, and the set-up for the one that follows it as we write a cohesive narrative?

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

The irony is you say that the talent on the team needs to stay intact moving forward, but somehow you fail to see how signing Kreider makes it difficult to do that. For example, do you really think the rangers can keep Kreider and ADA?

Panarin and Mika aren't going anywhere. I expect them to play at close to their current levels for the next 4-5 years and even after that I expect them to play at a very high level. Also, just because we have the highest scoring defense, the best LW in the league, and excellent goaltending does it mean that current make up of the team is good. They still have the worst Corsi stats in the league and I believe the worst expected goal against stats in the last decade. There are many strengths to this team, yes, but the holes are hugely gaping and will need some time to fix and fill.

Again if this was 2-3 years from now and we were talking about Kreider in his current age, this would be a very different conversation. But that's not where we are at. I preach patience rather than try to rush things. The rangers have always tried to rush things and it never works. It's refreshing to see that they are being patient and opportunistic for once like they did in the last off season.

Kreider marks the last round asset in the "sell off." After that I see the team switching gears in terms of how they manage their accumulated assets. I expect the front office will start making aggressive maneuvers next year to make upgrades to the holes in this team.[/QUOTE]

are these guys gonna play for free? Top 6 players are either getting signed to a big contract or coming to NY with an already big contract.

 

[Edge]

Not saying you can’t do that but your way can be very risky as well. I liked Kravstov since before we drafted him but you never know he may not pan out like Lias. Yes you can flip assets but again who knows if that works. So either way can be risky. Like I said I’m not saying give Kreiser what he wants. If he wants a huge contract then fine by all means trade him. But if he loves it here and will take a little less then that makes it much harder

Agreed, no matter what path we choose, risk is going to be inherent.

What I don't think is necessarily true is Kreider representing the dividing line between moving forward and getting more "now" assets, as compared to kicking the can down the road.

This team can still very much be focused on the next few years and building a team that is progressing in the right direction, and not necessarily have to commit 6 or 7 years, and $36-$49 million on Kreider.

I don't think it's either/or.