Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXII

[The New Russian Five]

The Rangers don't miss any of the players they have traded away in the last 3 plus years starting with Brassard for Zibanejad. Stepan. Nash. McDonagh. Miller. Hayes. Zuccarello. Is there any player the Rangers regret trading away? Nope.

I wish the rangers didn't trade away Miller actually. He was still very young and I always saw the potential to what he has become this season. I really feel like they undervalued him and the return supremely disappointed me. I feel like he would have been a great piece to have in this rebuild. Then again, we likely would have been better last season, not gotten Kakko, nor would have had the cap space for Panarin. So, somehow it kind of worked out, I guess. But as a player I still think he would have been great and he was young enough to fit in the rebuild timeline.

 

[Edge]

I agree. I feel like the keep Kreider camp wants to keep him for a combination of emotional attachment and short-sightedness. Everyone thinks that as soon as the Staal, Smith, and Lundqvist come off the books that we won't have to worry about the cap. But everyone is forgetting that in about 2-3 years we will have to deal with Kakko, Chytil, Fox, Shesterkin each getting big raises, including all the other ELCs (Hajek, Lindgren, Kravtsov?, Rykov?) also getting bumps in their salary. Even And that doesn't even include that Kravtsov could meet his potential and may likely be a big raise himself. What are we going to do about Zibanejad when his contract ends? And don't forget ADA is going to get a huge raise this year himself if we plan to keep him. The Kreider contract can have cascading effects on our young and improving roster as early as 2-3 years from now.

The only way I see keeping Kreider long term as being a good option is if they trade Trouba this year with plans of trading Skjei or Buch in the future. Otherwise the math from a Kreider contract is going to hurt our cap situation real badly.

Trading Kreider won't get us a player of equal value in return but it gets us more assets and helps our cap situation. I see at some point this off season or next season Gorton starting to package some of these assets together for upgrades. We just need to suffer through this one last year before I think next year we are a playoff team again.

A few names and ages three years from (when looking at contracts):

ADA - 27

Shesterkin - 28

Chtyil - 23

Fox - 25

Zibanejad - 30

One the one hand, everyone acknowledges how talented these guys are. On the other hand, should not be assuming their cumulative contracts will reflect that?

And that again assumes that we don't bring anyone in, which is not going to happen. Whether it's by trade, or free agency, over the next three years, we will be taking on contracts.

Could be July 1st, or it could be a mid-season trade where we send multiple prospects and/or picks to shore up an area, but it will be happening over the next three years. We all know this is coming.

 

[NYRangers0723]

I agree. I feel like the keep Kreider camp wants to keep him for a combination of emotional attachment and short-sightedness. Everyone thinks that as soon as the Staal, Smith, and Lundqvist come off the books that we won't have to worry about the cap. But everyone is forgetting that in about 2-3 years we will have to deal with Kakko, Chytil, Fox, Shesterkin each getting big raises, including all the other ELCs (Hajek, Lindgren, Kravtsov?, Rykov?) also getting bumps in their salary. Even And that doesn't even include that Kravtsov could meet his potential and may likely be a big raise himself. What are we going to do about Zibanejad when his contract ends? And don't forget ADA is going to get a huge raise this year himself if we plan to keep him. The Kreider contract can have cascading effects on our young and improving roster as early as 2-3 years from now.

The only way I see keeping Kreider long term as being a good option is if they trade Trouba this year with plans of trading Skjei or Buch in the future. Otherwise the math from a Kreider contract is going to hurt our cap situation real badly.

Trading Kreider won't get us a player of equal value in return but it gets us more assets and helps our cap situation. I see at some point this off season or next season Gorton starting to package some of these assets together for upgrades. We just need to suffer through this one last year before I think next year we are a playoff team again.

That is a bullshit statement. Nobody is “short sighted”. We just feel he isn’t gonna break down like some do. Plus live I’ve said many times it’s very difficult to replace a player like him

 

[Leetch3]

A few names and ages three years from (when looking at contracts):

ADA - 27

Shesterkin - 28

Chtyil - 23

Fox - 25

Zibanejad - 30

One the one hand, everyone acknowledges how talented these guys are. On the other hand, should not be assuming their cumulative contracts reflect that?

And that again assumes that we don't bring anyone in, which is not going to happen. Whether it's by trade, or free agency, over the next three years, we will be taking on contracts.

Could be July 1st, or it could be a mid-season trade where we send multiple prospects and/or picks to shore up an area, but it will be happening over the next three years. We all know this is coming.

jesus in 3 years chytil will still only be 23? lol

 

[Edge]

please stop circling back to the summer lol. It’s over it happened we’ve accelerated the rebuild.

And I’m not sure why you’re talking about prospects because I’m not arguing the previous bottoming out as I said. We did it already it’s over. I’m talking about going forward. At some point the next phase has to start and that’s actually trying to win

Have we though?

You clearly want to accelerate the rebuilding, and that's your prerogative. But your comments haven't reflected anything that JD or Gorton have actually said, or may be doing with Kreider --- which is exactly why we're debating it.

You're advocating for what you want them to do, not what they've actually committed to do thus far.

And as many of us have long discussed, there will be a next phase. Some just don't think it's the 2019/20 season, or that it has to include Chris Kreider, who represents the last big "sell-off" as you put it.

 

[MrAlmost]

The Rangers don't miss any of the players they have traded away in the last 3 plus years starting with Brassard for Zibanejad. Stepan. Nash. McDonagh. Miller. Hayes. Zuccarello. Is there any player the Rangers regret trading away? Nope.

Carl Hagelin.

EDIT: I know that was before 3 years ago, but I regret that the team traded him.

 

[The New Russian Five]

A few names and ages three years from (when looking at contracts):

ADA - 27

Shesterkin - 28

Chtyil - 23

Fox - 25

Zibanejad - 30

One the one hand, everyone acknowledges how talented these guys are. On the other hand, should not be assuming their cumulative contracts reflect that?

And that again assumes that we don't bring anyone in, which is not going to happen. Whether it's by trade, or free agency, over the next three years, we will be taking on contracts.

Could be July 1st, or it could be a mid-season trade where we send multiple prospects and/or picks to shore up an area, but it will be happening over the next three years. We all know this is coming.

Exactly. Everyone that wants to keep Kreider assumes that all the variables stay constant over the next several years. There are many moving parts here. Signing Kreider long term will handicap its ability to re-up talented RFAs and make trades for upgrades when we need it.

What surprises me is with the situation we are currently in with Shattenkirk, Smith, Lundqvist, and Staal's contracts that people don't seem to realize that this exact problem will only perpetuate itself again in the future if we make the same type of deals. Panarin made sense because he's an actual superstar and Trouba did as well because he is actually very young and his contract will likely age well. But even now the Trouba deal seems to be handicapping us with the emergence of ADA and Fox playing the way they have. Do people not see that signing Kredier would likely cause just as much of an issue down the line?

I'm just tired of the rangers constantly handicapping themselves with contracts that won't age well for short term gains that usually don't even come to fruition.

 

[NYRangers0723]

Exactly. Everyone that wants to keep Kreider assumes that all the variables stay constant over the next several years. There are many moving parts here. Signing Kreider long term will handicap its ability to re-up talented RFAs and make trades for upgrades when we need it.

What surprises me is with the situation we are currently in with Shattenkirk, Smith, Lundqvist, and Staal's contracts that people don't seem to realize that this exact problem will only perpetuate itself again in the future if we make the same type of deals. Panarin made sense because he's an actual superstar and Trouba did as well because he is actually very young and his contract will likely age well. But even now the Trouba deal seems to be handicapping us with the emergence of ADA and Fox playing the way they have. Do people not see that signing Kredier would likely cause just as much of an issue down the line?

I'm just tired of the rangers constantly handicapping themselves with contracts that won't age well for short term gains that usually don't even come to fruition.

Why do you keep acting like we aren’t aware of past bad contracts? We do. Nobody is saying break the bank for Kreider but if something reasonable can be worked out then it’s something we should at least think about. Believe me we aren’t as dumb/short sighted as you think we are lol

 

[LORDE]

The Rangers don't miss any of the players they have traded away in the last 3 plus years starting with Brassard for Zibanejad. Stepan. Nash. McDonagh. Miller. Hayes. Zuccarello. Is there any player the Rangers regret trading away? Nope.

Maybe Miller but of course he’s producing on a different team entirely and his attitude was suspect. Maybe being traded twice in a yr helped that fact? I dunno.

 

[Edge]

Exactly. Everyone that wants to keep Kreider assumes that all the variables stay constant over the next several years. There are many moving parts here. Signing Kreider long term will handicap its ability to re-up talented RFAs and make trades for upgrades when we need it.

What surprises me is with the situation we are currently in with Shattenkirk, Smith, Lundqvist, and Staal's contracts that people don't seem to realize that this exact problem will only perpetuate itself again in the future if we make the same type of deals. Panarin made sense because he's an actual superstar and Trouba did as well because he is actually very young and his contract will likely age well. But even now the Trouba deal seems to be handicapping us with the emergence of ADA and Fox playing the way they have. Do people not see that signing Kredier would likely cause just as much of an issue down the line?

I'm just tired of the rangers constantly handicapping themselves with contracts that won't age well for short term gains that usually don't even come to fruition.

So that's the long term, in the short term we have to move Buch and maybe someone else.

And I don't have a problem moving Buch, but I want to move him for another NHL-level player who brings something different --- be it a different style, different position, etc.

So that means I am likely trading Buch for someone who comes with a salary.

Moving Buch to keep Kreider means we are moving Buch more from a money standpoint and that in turn changes what we're getting back.

So it's the residual impact that re-signing Kreider has that also has to be taken into account. Because it impact not only how we approach resigning guys or electing to keep them, but also the types of trades we pursue or whether we explore options via free agency.

It's not just as simple as keeping one guy and trading another --- the finances will impact subsequent moves we make.

 

[Kovalev27]

Have we though?

You clearly want to accelerate the rebuilding, and that's your prerogative. But your comments haven't reflected anything that JD or Gorton have actually said, or may be doing with Kreider --- which is exactly why we're debating it.

You're advocating for what you want them to do, not what they've actually committed to do thus far.

And as many of us have long discussed, there will be a next phase. Some just don't think it's the 2019/20 season, or that it has to include Chris Kreider, who represents the last big "sell-offs" as you put it.

lol I’m not the one that accelerated the rebuild. Gorton DID. It’s been accelerated. You brought in Panarin Trouba Fox and The 2nd overall pick this past summer. Mika became a star. DeAngelo a star. It’s happened already regardless of what I at my desk is doing. It’s not my prerogative.

By the way count me as being thrilled we have all 3 of 8 77 and 23.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Have we though?

You clearly want to accelerate the rebuilding, and that's your prerogative. But your comments haven't reflected anything that JD or Gorton have actually said, or may be doing with Kreider --- which is exactly why we're debating it.

You're advocating for what you want them to do, not what they've actually committed to do thus far.

And as many of us have long discussed, there will be a next phase. Some just don't think it's the 2019/20 season, or that it has to include Chris Kreider, who represents the last big "sell-offs" as you put it.

Actually, the moment Panarin agreed to terms, the rebuild was accelerated. It’s not a question of wanting or no wanting. Kovie is right, what’s done is done. We agreed the clock started earlier and results are going to be expected. This is more than likely the last year this team gets a pass on not making the playoffs.

 

[Edge]

lol I’m not the one that accelerated the rebuild. Gorton DID. It’s been accelerated. You brought in Panarin Trouba Fox and The 2nd overall pick this past summer. Mika became a star. DeAngelo a star. It’s happened already regardless of what I at my desk is doing. It’s not my prerogative.

By the way count me as being thrilled we have all 3 of 8 77 and 23.

Not, but your prerogative is to invest in Kreider because you feel we have to take advantage of the next three years or that we risk becoming Edmonton.

I don't view those two concepts as inherently fused together.

I think we can still build a team around Zibanejad and Panarin and that approach doesn't have include Kreider, at the risk of missing the playoffs until 2024.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Have we though?

You clearly want to accelerate the rebuilding, and that's your prerogative. But your comments haven't reflected anything that JD or Gorton have actually said, or may be doing with Kreider --- which is exactly why we're debating it.

You're advocating for what you want them to do, not what they've actually committed to do thus far.

And as many of us have long discussed, there will be a next phase. Some just don't think it's the 2019/20 season, or that it has to include Chris Kreider, who represents the last big "sell-offs" as you put it.

Exactly. The type of short-sighted thinking that coincides with the first half of Kreider's next contract is the exact type of move that can prematurely shut a window. Look at those names you listed earlier. That's the focal point of this next core, and JG/JD would be best suited to figure out how to efficiently maximize cap space to retain those players. I don't want to be bogged down by a long-term Kreider deal if it means we can offer someone Chytil an 8 year contract at a lower AAV.

And besides, this whole argument around Kreider is heavily based on his intangibles. At the end of the day, we're still discussing giving a long-term deal worth ~8-9% of the cap to a guy that's a ~50ish point winger. I think we're better off allocating that money elsewhere, and I don't want to get caught paying Kreider for what he did in his mid-20s based on what he's going to produce in his mid-30s.

 

[Edge]

Actually, the moment Panarin agreed to terms, the rebuild was accelerated. It’s not a question of wanting or no wanting. Kovie is right, what’s done is done. We agreed the clock started earlier and results are going to be expected. This is more than likely the last year this team gets a pass on not making the playoffs.

It did, but accelerating doesn't have to mean one approach.

For example, who said we couldn't get assets for Kreider and then flip those assets elsewhere?

Who said that the path we HAVE to take includes signing Kreider?

That's the sticking point, Kreider is not a "HAVE TO" player or necessarily even a "should" player in this scenario.

 

[The New Russian Five]

That is a bull**** statement. Nobody is “short sighted”. We just feel he isn’t gonna break down like some do. Plus live I’ve said many times it’s very difficult to replace a player like him

I don't understand why Kreider needs a direct replacement? As long as the rangers can eventually get some that matches his production and is younger (they have the assets to make such a trade) does it matter what type of game he plays? Maybe they get someone who matches his point totals, but isn't as hard nosed as Kreider, but maybe plays a better defensive game. I don't get this need to "replace" Kreider. That's not the point of trading him for this season. It's to alleviate the cap issues it presents 2-3 years from now and to get the assets needed to get a player like him but in his prime in 2-3 years from now. And signing Kreider WILL present cap problems for the rangers (as it did with Smith, Staal, Lundqvist, and Shattenkirk, and pretty much 90% of all the other long term contracts that we have handed out that go well into a player's 30s).

Sign Kreider for what he can do for this team 2-3 years from now when the team is ready to supposedly contend? With each passing year making him older? It just seems like to big of a risk for a team that is starting to put the pieces together and already have 2 huge long term contracts (Panarin and Trouba). Adding Kreider to that list just increases the risk of having deadweight contracts on the team in a few years.

Taking all the variables into account, it just doesn't make sense to re-sign him to a long term deal. With the right assets that can be used for trades, Kreider IS replaceable. If the rangers had a realistic chance of being a cup contender starting next year, signing Kreider would have made sense to me. But that's not where we are at.

 

[Kovalev27]

Not, but your prerogative is to invest in Kreider because you feel we have to take advantage of the next three years or that we risk becoming Edmonton.

I don't view those two concepts as inherently fused together.

I think we can still build a team around Zibanejad and Panarin and that approach doesn't have include Kreider, at the risk of missing the playoffs until 2024.

That is correct. I do not want Mika and Panarin’s window to win to OPEN at age 30 and 32. The next 3 years are important and at this point mid 2020 anything we do that makes the team worse that’s avoidable (due to cap) to think about 5 years from now isn’t a good strategy.

 

[Leetch3]

lol I’m not the one that accelerated the rebuild. Gorton DID. It’s been accelerated. You brought in Panarin Trouba Fox and The 2nd overall pick this past summer. Mika became a star. DeAngelo a star. It’s happened already regardless of what I at my desk is doing. It’s not my prerogative.

By the way count me as being thrilled we have all 3 of 8 77 and 23.

I hate the use of the term 'accelerated' because people say it to imply the rebuild is over and we are ready to go for it again and that isn't true. Panarin and Trouba make the current team better and also push kids down to put them into better roles but that helps progress the rebuild. it doesn't mean the rebuild is over. they have made the team fun to watch but I don't know how anyone looks at our 3rd and 4th lines and left side of the defense and says 'this team is ready to compete'.

 

[The New Russian Five]

It did, but accelerating doesn't have to mean one approach.

For example, who said we couldn't get assets for Kreider and then flip those assets elsewhere?

Who said that the path we HAVE to take includes signing Kreider?

That's the sticking point, Kreider is not a HAVE TO or even a should player in this scenario.

I don't understand this idea that Kreider isn't replaceable. Might not get that replacement next year necessarily, but I expect it to happen down the line.

The rangers have an abundance of assets they can use with more and more teams mismanaging their own cap situations. Let's not be one of those teams. Let's instead be a team that takes advantage of other teams mismanaging their cap.

 

[duhmetreE]

Yes, Kreider can get 7 years in the open market. I still think he signs for 5, here. Maybe 6.

Kreider Zibs Buch/Kravtsov?
Panarin Strome Fast
Lemieux Chytil Kakko
Howden AcquiredC Smith/Reaves-type.

I'd sell on Buch.

Rykov deserves a shot eventually.

I still think we need a staple bottom6 center in the mold of Boyle/Bonino and a player like Reaves.

 

[Edge]

That is correct. I do not want Mika and Panarin’s window to win to OPEN at age 30 and 32. The next 3 years are important and at this point mid 2020 anything we do that makes the team worse that’s avoidable (due to cap) to think about 5 years from now isn’t a good strategy.

See, now there's the rub.

I don't think this is Kreider vs. delaying things three years debate.

I like Kreider, but trading him does not automatically equal pushing back an opening.

Let's assume that opening starts next season, which I don't think it does, I don't think moving Kreider pushes that back an additional two years.

Frankly, if it did, the problem goes beyond Kreider and therefore wouldn't be solved by him even if he was here.

And also, because all of this seems to assume that the Rangers won't be trading picks and prospects to acquire guys anyway.

If the Rangers we were willing to sign and move guys this summer, why would they suddenly stop just because they moved Kreider?

 

[LORDE]

People remember the Kreider at the start of the season right? That wasn’t that long ago.

As a player ages those stretches occur more often, even IF u wanna chalk this yrs stretch up to the sword of Damocles hanging over his head.

I agree the build accelerated. Something some of us WERE worried about... and still are.

 

[NYRangers0723]

I don't understand this idea that Kreider isn't replaceable. Might not get that replacement next year necessarily, but I expect it to happen down the line.

The rangers have an abundance of assets they can use with more and more teams mismanaging their own cap situations. Let's not be one of those teams. Let's instead be a team that takes advantage of other teams mismanaging their cap.

Nobody said that he isn’t replaceable we said it will be difficult to replace him in the immediate future. Again think you are misinterpreting a lot. Nobody is saying we should just give him whatever he wants but it should let just be a foregone conclusion to trade him either

 

[Leetch3]

when it comes to determining whether or not to commit long term to vets like kreider, strome, fast, buchnevich, skjei I think we need to consider the stage of the rebuild...

when the letter went out JG talked about wanting to avoid the 'dreaded middle' where you are in the middle of the standings, not good enough to win but also not bad enough to get a top pick...well in a way we currently are in the 'dreaded middle' stage of the rebuild. we've move passed the blow it up phase but we aren't quite in the 'go for it' phase either

we aren't ready to go for it and committing big $$ to aging players always comes with its risk, but you also can't just keep punting to the future and waiting for the next set of draft picks. that is how you get yourself into a forever rebuild...so if you move on from these guys you likely need to replace them with current players either via trade or free agency. adds another layer of complexity to the decision.

 

[Kovalev27]

I hate the use of the term 'accelerated' because people say it to imply the rebuild is over and we are ready to go for it again and that isn't true. Panarin and Trouba make the current team better and also push kids down to put them into better roles but that helps progress the rebuild. it doesn't mean the rebuild is over. they have made the team fun to watch but I don't know how anyone looks at our 3rd and 4th lines and left side of the defense and says 'this team is ready to compete'.

You’re right. This year I don’t think we are a Cup contender and it probably is too late to squeak into the playoffs. But the third line is a good example.

Chytil and Kakko are our third line. What do you think those two are going to be by next October? That age overnight almost they can turn into men. Chytil turning into a monster already. The guys currently on our third line are going to be beasts next year.

we have a ton of kids coming still. The actual selling off of core players has to end somewhere and then it’s about building back up and winning. Trading Kreider does not make us better today or tomorrow.

trading Strome when you have a Chytil behind him. Trading Buchnevich when you have a Kravtsov. Trading Staal when you have 5 guys behind him. That I understand.

trading Kreider with all that he brings no way. Does not help us become contenders anytime soon. We’ll be looking to find a top 6 left wing for years to replace what we’ve lost. Mark my words.