Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXI

[haohmaru]

I don't get all this Trouba hate. He was quietly very good last season while being paired with a rookie that a quarter of this board thinks is terrible because he had some tough patches and apparently doesn't hit anyone.

Kreider is a much bigger problem than he is.

Yeah, I'm with you here. He stumbled out of the gate when we initially acquired him but I have no problem with what he brought to the table last year. Young-ish vet D with leadership ability. Don't love the contract but you have to pay certain players in certain roles.

Kreider is what he is. He's not a detriment to the team either.

 

[Levitate]

The thing is players don't want to sit behind other players if they think it's holding them and their earnings back
If Lundkvist is a fantastic D with a big upside but is stuck behind Fox he's going to want out at some point or price himself out of NY

 

[IDvsEGO]

If Nurse is getting 9.25, Trouba's a steal @ 8M.

I mean this is the take most people should have, and instead we look at trouba and bitch.
He's locked into a not fantastic contract, but not horrible either. He's also young enough that he's not really going to decline on the contract either.
in a year or two a Right side of Fox,Trouba, Lundkvist/Schneider could be a really scary right side, without even considering the left side.

 

[Kodiak]

I don't get all this Trouba hate. He was quietly very good last season while being paired with a rookie that a quarter of this board thinks is terrible because he had some tough patches and apparently doesn't hit anyone.

Kreider is a much bigger problem than he is.

Agreed. Am I the only one that saw the blueline completely fall apart after Trouba got hurt?

 

[bobbop]

Disagree. If Schneider is kept and is the real deal, Trouba becomes a very expensive redundancy.

Sorry but the Rangers need more players like Trouba, not less

 

[Kodiak]

The team has changed a lot in 4 years and will continue to change over the next year no?

The team will continue to change, but teams that just starting to come into their own during the regular season tend to fall short and suffer a few heartbreaks in the playoffs before they break through. We are not even at the point of being considered a good regular season team. To jump from that to Cup winner seems unlikely. If this team wins a Cup in the near future, there are going to be some setbacks along the way.

 

[NYR]

If the forwards are working within a functional system this year as expected, the defense won't seem like nearly as much of an issue compared to the last few seasons.

Hopefully the learning curve won't take too long but by the first quarter of the season, this team should be rolling at a pretty good pace.

 

[Kodiak]

NYR missed the playoffs in 1993.

That was an anomaly. It was a veteran team falling apart and not a young team trying to break in. Prior to 94, the Rangers finished 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 6th in the division. In the past 4 years, it has been 8th, 6th, 7th, and 5th.

The point is that if a Cup win happens, there is going to be heartbreak along the way. 93 was part of the heartbreak, as were the playoffs losses in 90, 91, and 92.

 

[bobbop]

We have posters here who want to see the salary cap managed like Tetris or Legos. It’s not always possible to do properly. Trouba and Kreider were both signed in a different economic environment. That stings. There are also 20 or so other teams navigating the same minefield.

The Rangers will figure out a way to blend the cap with performance. Nothing is ever off the table but (for once) I agree with Carp that the Rangers need more players like this, not less.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Yeah, I'm with you here. He stumbled out of the gate when we initially acquired him but I have no problem with what he brought to the table last year. Young-ish vet D with leadership ability. Don't love the contract but you have to pay certain players in certain roles.

Kreider is what he is. He's not a detriment to the team either.

I think he was 100% a detriment to this team 5v5. There was a level of malaise and laziness to his game that I've never seen from him before. He's gone through his struggles, but last season was just different where he would just coast to loose pucks or half ass sealing the walls when he was in a position to shut down a clearing attempt. In that respect, he embodied a ton of problems with last year's group to a tee.

He's was elite AF at his role on the PP, so that didn't change.

I don't think hes washed and I actually expect a better season out of him next year. He did all of the usual good Kreider stuff at various points of last season, they just weren't nearly there nearly enough. I think there is some level of motivation that he and a few other guys will have (Zibanejad, for obvious reasons) that will reflect in their on ice performance next year. I just don't know that I really trust him to maintain any semblance of said play beyond next season. Maybe being on a good team will help but there were too many red flags there with him for me, plus the inevitable decline thats going to come with age.

 

[Fitzy]

Having an established, respected NHL coach, along with an influx of hard nosed players SHOULD in theory up Kreider's compete level.

 

[Daves a mess]

Having an established, respected NHL coach, along with an influx of hard nosed players SHOULD in theory up Kreider's compete level.

Totally agree.

 

[rangers1314]

Having an established, respected NHL coach, along with an influx of hard nosed players SHOULD in theory up Kreider's compete level.

You'd hope....but on the other hand, hes 30 and going into his 9th season, he might just be what he is at this point regardless of who or what surrounds him.

 

[mas0764]

He's not a second Adam Fox. Trust me I'd have no problem with another Fox.

Of course, but the point was rhetorical. Fox 1 occupying the PP role doesn't make a second Fox a limited value to us, he's so good that he'd excel in the other roles you put him in.

Obviously Lundkvist is no Fox, and also obviously Lundkvist will/would excel on the power play, but he is also good enough that he will excel in other roles you put him in.

I'm saying I think Lundkvist is better at the non-PP stuff that Schneider and yes, maybe even Trouba is (long term, not this year). Let's not forget, Trouba isn't a shut down defender. He's also a PP specialist, kind of offensive defenseman, just with some size.

Lundkvist is legit actually good at defense. People seem to think he's an offensive PP only specialist, that is not true at all. He's a complete defenseman.

 

[mas0764]

Sorry but the Rangers need more players like Trouba, not less

The Rangers need more good players. It is a distinct possibility that Lundkvist is ultimately better than Trouba.

 

[RiffyNYR61]

Wow big difference. You should know better. The 1992 team finished first in the Patrick Division with 105 points and with better goaltending in the Pitt series could easily have advanced to the conference finals if not further. They also made the playoffs the prior 3 seasons. This team has done squat and has a bunch of question marks whereas the 1992 team had a solid nucleus and solid leadership with both a veteran and youth presence. Not even close.

the idea that the results of a previous season (or two or three) have implications on whether a team can win the cup within the next 2 is a flawed argument.

 

[NYR]

Having an established, respected NHL coach, along with an influx of hard nosed players SHOULD in theory up Kreider's compete level.

Sorry to say but I think he's going to be more of a finesse player knowing that he's no longer the player expected to stick up for team mates.

I don't think he'll have one fight this year.

 

[jay from jersey]

The thing is players don't want to sit behind other players if they think it's holding them and their earnings back
If Lundkvist is a fantastic D with a big upside but is stuck behind Fox he's going to want out at some point or price himself out of NY

This times a million. He’s not going to sit and wait 3 years to get “ a chance” at top 4 min on the right side. Especially with Schneider there as well. It’s not realistic
Schneider is very close to being ready for NHL duty. Odds are he doesn’t need a full season in the A, but they’ll keep him there anyway. The following season, I fully expect him to be starting on rangers 3rd D pair. He’ll be their for a year and half/2 years and at that point, or somewhere in that time frame, he’ll likely take over for trouba as the top 4 RD minute eater.
The rangers will at that point either drop Trouba to 3rd pair or trade him because he’ll no longer has a NMC clause. It will be a MNTC
The only way possible the rangers will get the most out of Lundkvist talents is if he switches to the left side and displaces one of Miller or Lindgren( less likely due to Fox chemistry). And that’s without getting him top PP time somehow so we can utilize his shot. But at least he’ll get his 20 odd top 4 minutes

 

[Levitate]

Sorry but the Rangers need more players like Trouba, not less

I don't think it's crazy to think Trouba could be a cap casuality down the line but yes I don't think he's going anywhere in the near future. Schneider could "replace" him eventually but the decision will probably be more about cap space than anything else

e: also say 4 years down the line the makeup of the team could be completely different, the direction the league is trending could be completely different, an expensive Trouba may not be valued as highly as he currently is

 

[Quinnisinoverhishead]

I don't get all this Trouba hate. He was quietly very good last season while being paired with a rookie that a quarter of this board thinks is terrible because he had some tough patches and apparently doesn't hit anyone.

Kreider is a much bigger problem than he is.

I agree.
I razzed Trouba the most after his initial season. But he grew on me this year. He will never be worth his contract. That being said, he is a top 2nd pairing defencemen in the NHL. I would probably give him $5-$6 million per season today. Gorton could not foresee the pandemic affecting the salary cap like it did. He helped elevate the play of Miller. Miller was awful without him. I consider him a line driver. You can put a cheaper contract on the left side and they will perform admirably together. ($10 million allocated towards your second pairing will not hurt you)

As for Kreider: He's a complimentary player. Doesn't drive a line. Absent for weeks at a time. Doesn't play his size. He gets rewarded with 18mins/game of ice time routinely. I can't stand him. When people say 'Kreider for captain', I cringe. Inevitable buyout.

 

[jay from jersey]

We have posters here who want to see the salary cap managed like Tetris or Legos. It’s not always possible to do properly. Trouba and Kreider were both signed in a different economic environment. That stings. There are also 20 or so other teams navigating the same minefield.

The Rangers will figure out a way to blend the cap with performance. Nothing is ever off the table but (for once) I agree with Carp that the Rangers need more players like this, not less.

many posters also want to plans for 6-7 years and beyond down the line. It’s just not realistic. Most coaches, GMs, and hell even players won’t be here that long. They get paid to win. That’s their results. This is New York Rangers not ARI, Not the Sabres, there are expectations and results and people that are going to get fired / traded if they don’t deliver.
The rangers not being a playoff team cost Dolan a fortune.
There’s a certain amount of slack cut in off or rebuilding years but ultimately this is a business. And 5,6,7 years for the rangers to not have playoff ticket sales, concessions, TV money, and all that goes with it isn’t going to go over well

 

[Leetch3]

Of course not but we have more than we can use and Schneider replicates what Trouba brings rather nicely and for much cheaper.

next year adam fox will probably be making $9. 5 mil. nils is much cheaper. does that make fox expendable? of course not.

 

[Do you want ants]

We have posters here who want to see the salary cap managed like Tetris or Legos. It’s not always possible to do properly. Trouba and Kreider were both signed in a different economic environment. That stings. There are also 20 or so other teams navigating the same minefield.

The Rangers will figure out a way to blend the cap with performance. Nothing is ever off the table but (for once) I agree with Carp that the Rangers need more players like this, not less.

It’s hard for me to worry or get bent out shape over the cap, especially when I see multiple teams every year taking on cap dumps that everyone assumes will never get moved. Stock piling picks and prospects like we have, creates multiple possibilities. Zero issue with moving some to create cap space down the line.

 

[mas0764]

next year adam fox will probably be making $9. 5 mil. nils is much cheaper. does that make fox expendable? of course not.

True, I guess it's an eventual reflection on how I see Trouba, Nils, and Schneider eventually developing.

I'd put the pecking order as Fox first, then Lundkvist. I see Schneider and Trouba as ending up relatively similar in third place. Gun to my head, Trouba is better or at least the better bet because he's already there, but it's cause he's put up 50 points before so I know that's in him. I think Schneider is a good bet to be able to bring the physicality and defensive acumen that we are lauding on Trouba for much cheaper.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Of course, but the point was rhetorical. Fox 1 occupying the PP role doesn't make a second Fox a limited value to us, he's so good that he'd excel in the other roles you put him in.

Obviously Lundkvist is no Fox, and also obviously Lundkvist will/would excel on the power play, but he is also good enough that he will excel in other roles you put him in.

I'm saying I think Lundkvist is better at the non-PP stuff that Schneider and yes, maybe even Trouba is (long term, not this year). Let's not forget, Trouba isn't a shut down defender. He's also a PP specialist, kind of offensive defenseman, just with some size.

Lundkvist is legit actually good at defense. People seem to think he's an offensive PP only specialist, that is not true at all. He's a complete defenseman.

I don't agree with any of this.

Defending in the SHL is a much different beast than defending in the NHL.