Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXI
- Thread starter Krams
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- Aug 5, 2010
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Of course, always an option.
At the same time, I do actually think that Buch fits here. And like when Zucc is gone, he will get an even bigger role. From my POV, its clear that he has under-performed due to a mix of several reasons, mainly not being physical enough, not being mature enough and badly timed injuries.
However, in all instances I think he is trending in the right direction. He is a 0.5 PPG player. The going rate for him on a 2 year deal is maybe 3.25m per. I think we should stay away from those bridge deals. Can we get him on a 4-5 year deal at just south of 4m per on average? 0.5 PPG is top 6 forward production. Buch will improve in all likely scenarios I can think of. Even if he doesn't become a 65-70 pts player, having a top 6 forward for around 4m per is an acceptable bang for the buck. No deal restrictions.
For some reason Slats and Gorts have been so cautious not to over pay for younger players. I think that is a very bad strategy. You will not find many examples of kids under 25 y/o being unmoveable or hurting their teams due to bad contracts. Heck I can't think of one single example myself. Bjugstad? UFA's so often end up being bad signings, its a huge percentage of all signings that just don't end up looking good at all. But we have no problem throwing money at them, but when it comes to reupping the kids like Hayes and co we are so afraid of it. When Hayes was resigned the first time we could easily have signed him for 5-6 years at 4.5m per. That would have been an awesome signing today...
Another thing, the buy-out rules are really team-friendly for younger players.
Lets say we give Buch this 6y contract (I know, crazy right? Or?):
Y1 -- 3.3m per
Y2 -- 3.5m per
y3 -- 3.7m per
y4 -- 4m per
Y5 -- 4.5m per
Y6 -- 4.75m per
AVV is 4.025m per
But its a freaking disaster. Buch totally fails the team and goes Ville Leino on us after 3 years. What is the buy-out? Buch is still under 26, he only gets 1/3 of the remaining amount over 6 years. The first 3 years we get a caphit reduction thanks to his caphit in y1-3 being higher than his salary.
Caphit if contract is bought out after 3 years:
y1 - 33k
y2 - 233k
y3 - 433k
y4 - 758k
y5 - 758k
y6 - 758k
Like the risk just isn't that big. But the upside certainly is...
Can anyone explain to me again why Gorton is so extremely afraid of giving younger players longer contracts? Sometimes I wonder if he even is aware of these things...
Go back to 2016. Gorts gave Hayes 2 years and 2.6m per. Lets say he gave him this deal instead.
Y1 -- 3m per
Y2 -- 3.4m per
y3 -- 3.8m per
y4 -- 4.2m per
Y5 -- 4.6m per
Caphit is 3.8m per. Hayes turns total bozo, why would he? Who knows, but lets assume he does for some odd reason. Well we are doomed, right?
This is how a buyout of that contract looks after 2 years if it turns out to be a huge mistake:
Y1 - We get a 100k CREDIT to our cap hit
Y2 -- 358k (cap hit, no credit)
Y3-6 -- 758k cap hit
And the upside would have been huge. Imagine what we could have gotten for Hayes on the market today if he had 3 more years at 3.8m per. Easily a top 10 pick in the draft. So in essence Gorts pissed away a top 10 pick since he wasn't prepared to risk an average cap hit of 548k over 6 years on a kid...
What is everyone around the team discussing instead? 'LOL WHAT HAD HAYES DONE TO DESERVE 5 YEARS?? The best players should request short contracts, they are the best for the player. The team should request long contracts for players who performs poorly. Will we win a Cup if we never get a first overall pick? Maybe we should discuss if we will win a cup if we have a GM that doesn't understand the CBA?
Y1 -- 3m per
Y2 -- 3.4m per
y3 -- 3.8m per
y4 -- 4.2m per
Y5 -- 4.6m per
Caphit is 3.8m per. Hayes turns total bozo, why would he? Who knows, but lets assume he does for some odd reason. Well we are doomed, right?
This is how a buyout of that contract looks after 2 years if it turns out to be a huge mistake:
Y1 - We get a 100k CREDIT to our cap hit
Y2 -- 358k (cap hit, no credit)
Y3-6 -- 758k cap hit
And the upside would have been huge. Imagine what we could have gotten for Hayes on the market today if he had 3 more years at 3.8m per. Easily a top 10 pick in the draft. So in essence Gorts pissed away a top 10 pick since he wasn't prepared to risk an average cap hit of 548k over 6 years on a kid...
What is everyone around the team discussing instead? 'LOL WHAT HAD HAYES DONE TO DESERVE 5 YEARS?? The best players should request short contracts, they are the best for the player. The team should request long contracts for players who performs poorly. Will we win a Cup if we never get a first overall pick? Maybe we should discuss if we will win a cup if we have a GM that doesn't understand the CBA?
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GeorgeKaplan
Registered User
Just trying to understand after playing your best defensive game in a month why you take McQuaid out so you can force an iffy Pionk back in. Why is this kid treated like he’s nik lidstrom? He coulda sat another night. He’s awful.
Chytil with a heck of a start to this game
Chytil with a heck of a start to this game
Why would we have offered him any other contact? Let him play in the KHL for 2 years if he wants to play for someone else on another contract. Do you think TML was dangling a 2 year deal infront of Willy Nylander?
I don't know about the exact numbers. If you add 100k per year does it make a difference? It hardly does for us. Just for the record, I would definitely say that Hayes would have signed that contract and probably even a cheaper one for 5 years, but I am of course just guessing. If you go back and see what was speculated on the numbers were lower.
Nobody else is signing good looking young players to short deals in this league, except for Gorton. Brooks and so many others around this team are his biggest fan for it. Ask @RangerBoy. Everyone should get a bridgedeal, right? Look around the league -- why are nobody else obsessed with the bridge deals? There is a reason for it...
GeorgeKaplan
Registered User
That’s ridiculous. Bridge deals definitely still happen around the league, just not to star players, which Kevin Hayes wasn’t and isn’t. He’s also not as good as Nylander, who Toronto was considering bridging just to get a deal done, they also strongly considered trading him, turns out that it didn’t need to come to that and both sides got what they wanted.
Rangers in 7
Registered User
Why did for example NJ get sooo much for Adam Henrique when we basically got nothing for JT Miller?
The answer is simple, Jeff Gorton gave JT Miller a 2 year deal in 2016, after giving him a 1 year deal. JT had arb rights and a clear path to UFA when we traded him.
NJ gave Henrique this contract:
When you hit the loo the next time and hear a pouting sound, it’s a reminder of just of extremely substantial assets Jeff Gorton have pissed away because he haven’t figured out the CBA. On the NHL teams we have his UFA signings playing horribly for 2.5 more years at close to 11m per. Why wasn’t Shatty traded last summer? Come on, in NY we can’t do that to a UFA. We can threat our homegrown players like crap but not a UFA. One cup in 100 years, soon...
The answer is simple, Jeff Gorton gave JT Miller a 2 year deal in 2016, after giving him a 1 year deal. JT had arb rights and a clear path to UFA when we traded him.
NJ gave Henrique this contract:
When you hit the loo the next time and hear a pouting sound, it’s a reminder of just of extremely substantial assets Jeff Gorton have pissed away because he haven’t figured out the CBA. On the NHL teams we have his UFA signings playing horribly for 2.5 more years at close to 11m per. Why wasn’t Shatty traded last summer? Come on, in NY we can’t do that to a UFA. We can threat our homegrown players like crap but not a UFA. One cup in 100 years, soon...
Link?
Jesper Fast gets a bridge deal, fine. Who is signing a former 1st round pick who scores 47 pts his rookie season to a bridge deal? Lol.
Toronto was prepared to offer Nylander a bridge deal? Okiii
And just for the record, with a bridge deal I am not referring to a contract that does not take a player to years with arbitration rights.
GeorgeKaplan
Registered User
Friedman and McKenzie both have mentioned a bridge deal was a viable option multiple times. Here’s 2 articles that have Kypreos and Mirtle mentioning bridge deals (one of them specifically mentions Toronto considering a two year bridge deal) being an option, one during preseason and one in mid-November:
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nylander expected to sign before training camp
NHL Rumor Roundup: Maple Leafs, William Nylander nearing point of no return
And 47 points as a rookie is good, but he was also 22 years old. And sure he was a first round pick, but he was the 24th overall pick. But again, he’s not a star player.
Edit: here’s my main point, I don’t think it’s fair to knock Gorton over ‘he should have done x’ when we have no idea if x was even an option or not. I also think if Hayes did sign that contract you’re talking about, they wouldn’t be trading him this season, so I think the ‘if they did this, they’d get way more than they stand to get now’ part also doesn’t stand up
KingsHockey24
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- Aug 1, 2013
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I agree with you. I don't want him as a thrown in to a deal to boost the value. Didn't mean for it to come across like that at all.
Schenn was just an example off the top of my head and not a direct comparison. I'm talking about the mentality of what Philly did in that deal, not saying that Buchnevich is in the same situation as Schenn, or that he's that caliber of player yet.
The Schmaltz for Strome/Perlini deal is the sort of deal I'm talking about. A team deals a guy who is a bit earlier in his development for a more established player in Buchnevich. Maybe they add a pick in as well.
Of course, we don't have the full details, and I was trying to be a little funny by putting on a charade going over the top trashing Gorton and when reading it this morning I understand that it might not have come across that way...
1. With that said, when its time to resign the kids we have right now, the approach must have changed. There should be zero excuses to ask questions like "what have X done to deserve 4/5/6/7/8 years" like you are doing a young player a favor by resigning him to a long contract.
The downside with giving a young player a longer contract like NJ did with Henrique is minimal and the upside is tremendous. Heck, I would go as far as to say that you never will be able to compete in this league unless you have younger players on the back-end of longer contracts.
2. In the negotiations, we really hold all the leverage. What is the kid without arbitration right going to do? I don't for a second believe that Toronto was prepared to go the route with Nylander that Winnipeg have gone with Trouba. I am sure there are 1-2 exceptions, but teams are locking up solid looking youth to longer contracts.
Why is this opinion so commonly parroted around when it's just not reality at all?
There are multiple projection of them paying Tavares $12, Matthews $12.5, Marner $10 & Nylander $8 from last offseason where it was still workable.
When up against the cap you don't lose your best players to fit in more overpaid depth you lose the depth.
If you seriously think a front office that includes two people who were instrumental in literally writing the CBA in Pridham & Gillman are goingto be caught off guard by cap concerns you're not paying attention closely enough.
TheBloodyNine
Pure Bred Soviet Savage
“Losing Depth” is what turns a good team into a mediocre team or worse. Teams without depth don’t win championships.
Shesterkybomb
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- Dec 30, 2016
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Exactly this. Next year they will likely lose Gardiner, the next Marleau, lost JVR and Bozak from last year. They need a dman or two, a vet dman atleast and they should be all in on this year because they may never be as good as they are now, need a dman at the deadline.
Off Sides
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- Sep 8, 2008
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If Claesson can return only a 3rd, the Rangers should just keep him, qualify him and then work on some extension. It's not like it would be super expensive or long term.
Same For ADA.
Pionk is a little different, he has the stats, not the advanced ones, the traditional stats to use in arbitration to get something decent on a 1 or 2 year award. I'd still like to see him bridged even if it's comes in for more than I'd like. Yet they can not go Skjei there by any means. If he happens to have some legit trade value, I'd probably be listening there, just as I would for Skjei.
Same For ADA.
Pionk is a little different, he has the stats, not the advanced ones, the traditional stats to use in arbitration to get something decent on a 1 or 2 year award. I'd still like to see him bridged even if it's comes in for more than I'd like. Yet they can not go Skjei there by any means. If he happens to have some legit trade value, I'd probably be listening there, just as I would for Skjei.
Player big P
no more striptease no more flashes
I didn't recognize/couldn't remember who that was but a reverse google search suggests the "Best guess for this image: injury" followed by a series of pages regarding injuriesWho needs Marner; just bring back this stud.
Flames Senior VP/Hockey Operations Don Maloney was interviewed during the 2nd period of the Flames broadcast last night. The Flames had their pro scouting meetings over the weekend and Maloney said he will be hitting the road to scout the players the Flames discussed in their meetings. Don't be surprised if Maloney pops up in New York sometime this week.
When is Hayes returning to the lineup? He skated last Thursday in a red no contact sweater. The Rangers were off on Friday. Back to back games this weekend. The Rangers are off today. There was no mention of Hayes coming back tomorrow night on the broadcasts over the weekend. The Rangers will probably want Hayes to skate in practice with a contact sweater. The Rangers should sit him out until after the all star break.
The Rangers have Carolina tomorrow night. They have won 7 out of their last 8 games. They lost in TB in a game they should have won or have gotten one point. Carolina took two dumb penalties and TB scored on both PP's. They followed up the TB loss with home wins against Buffalo and Nashville. They never win at MSG.
When is Hayes returning to the lineup? He skated last Thursday in a red no contact sweater. The Rangers were off on Friday. Back to back games this weekend. The Rangers are off today. There was no mention of Hayes coming back tomorrow night on the broadcasts over the weekend. The Rangers will probably want Hayes to skate in practice with a contact sweater. The Rangers should sit him out until after the all star break.
The Rangers have Carolina tomorrow night. They have won 7 out of their last 8 games. They lost in TB in a game they should have won or have gotten one point. Carolina took two dumb penalties and TB scored on both PP's. They followed up the TB loss with home wins against Buffalo and Nashville. They never win at MSG.
Amazing Kreiderman
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- Apr 11, 2011
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Who needs Marner; just bring back this stud.
Wraparound king!!!
Now plays in the Korean league, but I was sitting behind him last season when he was playing for Amur against Jokerit in Helsinki
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