Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXI - Let's make a deal

[Siddi]

Then there's very little point in continuing forward with this debate.

Who do you consider elite?

 

[True Blue]

I get the sense that ‘hard’ players is a top objective for this team. Which is why is suspect more and more Buchnevich and Georgiev plus get moved and some gritty types are brought in. Kreider May have to go but I am of the opinion that management would be happy to keep him... at the right price. The more I see Kreider step it up- in contrast to Zucc - I can imagine the Rangers c-suite scheming to find a way to keep CK longer term.

There is a path to keep Kreider. I agree with that. But there are two things that, at least to me, go into the equation.

Let's forget about DeAngelo for the purpose of this. First of all, does Kreider want to be here enough to strike a deal with Gorton? One that fits in within the confines of what he would want deal with as far as dollars and term? Gorton will not underpay him, but he can get more on the market and also the term is important. Second of all, just how much does management like Strome? I say that because I cannot see both being here. I think that Buchnevich is out the door no matter what, but I cannot see a scenario where Strome and Krieder are both here long term.

But then again, who knows? This is nothing but speculation by me and attempting to read the tea leaves.

 

[Edge]

Who do you consider elite?

Off the top of my head:

Raask, Bishop, Bobrosky (though not so much this season), maybe Holtby (though not this season).

The better question might be not who's elite, but who would I start over Lundqvist at this point, because that list is a bit longer.

 

[True Blue]

I agree with all of your points here but I think the package you’re asking for is not far off from what Vegas gave up for Mark Stone. We all know Chris Kreider is not Mark Stone.

I also think there are very few teams around the league who would be willing to sign Kreider long term. You’re betting the Bruins are one of them. They’ve made mistakes on top 6 forward contracts in recent years. Backes. Beleskey. I see them as a major Kreider rental contender but I’m not sold on their long term interest.

I get it. But as we have seen in each off season, someone WILL sign the likes of him. Zucc was able to find a suitor. So too will Kreider.

One other thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that Kreider IS a proven playoff performer.

 

[InTheShift]

Not sure you aren't overrating Bracco. A soon to be 23 year old that hasn't cracked the NHL at all and has dipped in production this year in the AHL isn't likely to have too much value himself.

Fair point, but I think you need to look at what/who is blocking Bracco from an NHL spot on the leafs. They are stacked to the gills on wing. You’d be getting a 23 year old, cost controlled winger who has definite upside. It fits with what the team is trying to do right now.

I’d love some of the deals (Bruins, Carolina) being suggested here I just think a goalie won’t return that much. I’d be very happy to be wrong.

 

[True Blue]

Beecher was one of my draft targets last summer as a second rounder, so I would love to have him. But I think it's too soon for Boston to move him.

Generally guys who are drafted don't get traded that quickly, although it does happen

As was brought out, Boston's main issue is lack of secondary scoring. Kreider represents the biggest trade acquisition on the market. AND one that is a proven playoff performer. How much does Sweeney want to push the chips in and go for it this year? Or is he betting that the window will be open for much longer? It is not like they are the youngest team.

 

[True Blue]

The Bruins is a legit contender who’s one player away. The class of the east is Boston and the Caps and to an extent, Toronto, TB, and Carolina. All those teams should be vying for CK.

As well they should. It is up to Gorton to play them all off against each other. Then also throw Colorado into the mix.

 

[Fireonk]

Fair point, but I think you need to look at what/who is blocking Bracco from an NHL spot on the leafs. They are stacked to the gills on wing. You’d be getting a 23 year old, cost controlled winger who has definite upside. It fits with what the team is trying to do right now.

I’d love some of the deals (Bruins, Carolina) being suggested here I just think a goalie won’t return that much. I’d be very happy to be wrong.

Yeah, I do think Bracco is a name the Rangers will be looking at. But I think they will want something on top of that. Lets keep in mind that Georgiev is also only available because look who he is being blocked by. Best goalie of the last decade+ and one of, if not the, best goalie prospects.

 

[True Blue]

By the standards of the NHL, yes.

You didnt answer my question.

If you consider Henke still elite, there is really nothing else left to debate.

Love him and he is a top-5 goalie on the all time list for me, but elite he is no longer.

 

[BBKers]

Lias A. to Detroit is a definite possibility. Interest and ties there. LA too

 

[Edge]

If you consider Henke still elite, there is really nothing else left to debate.

Love him and he is a top-5 goalie on the all time list for me, but elite he is no longer.

And for the record, I think there are teams Lundqvist could play for, that would mask some of his shortcomings at this stage in his career, for whom he could find success.

But that circles back to my original point. Those teams either don't have a need for him, or probably wouldn't be a destination he's interested in. So beyond that, I don't see him seeking a move to sit as a backup elsewhere, nor do I see him looking to start in a place he doesn't want to be.

Right now, if someone were to put me on the spot as to the likelihood of Lundqvist retiring, I'd say there's between a 30 and 40 percent chance. There are some who think it might be higher, others who think it's less likely. Personally, I think there's a decent chance.

And it's not solely because he is incapable of still playing at this level.

 

[True Blue]

Right now, if someone were to put me on the spot as to the likelihood of Lundqvist retiring, I'd say there's between a 30 and 40 percent chance. There are some who think it might be higher, others who think it's less likely. Personally, I think there's a decent chance.

And it's not solely because he is incapable of still playing at this level.

If he wanted to, he can continue to play at his level and mentor the future goalie of the future. The question is does he want to do that at a lower price point?

As for him retiring, call me cynical but what Naslund did is not something that you see often. Would Henke be another? Hard for me to simply say yes.

 

[QJL]

I get it. But as we have seen in each off season, someone WILL sign the likes of him. Zucc was able to find a suitor. So too will Kreider.

One other thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that Kreider IS a proven playoff performer.

Backes and Beleskey were proven as well when the Bruins made those signings. Both came on board with a better point per game playoff clip than Kreider has now.

Beleskey - .57 (28 games)
Backes - .55 (49 games)
Kreider - .48 (77 games)

I just don’t see them as the team to make that signing.

 

[Edge]

If he wanted to, he can continue to play at his level and mentor the future goalie of the future. The question is does he want to do that at a lower price point?

As for him retiring, call me cynical but what Naslund did is not something that you see often. Would Henke be another? Hard for me to simply say yes.

The thing that makes me wonder with Lundqvist, and it's not that I know him on an friendly level or anything, is that he competes against himself. His standards are based on what he feels he is capable of. So in that regard, my curiosity is whether he wants to be a backup and come face to face with the reality, with each passing year, that he is sliding (even little by little). I'm not sure that's his path.

Could it be? Absolutely.

Could he serve as a mentor? Absolutely.

Can he still play in the NHL? You bet.

Is the role we described what he wants? Eh, that part I'm not sure about.

 

[Lays]

Lias A. to Detroit is a definite possibility. Interest and ties there. LA too

Lias+Georgiev would make sense for them

 

[Siddi]

Off the top of my head:

Raask, Bishop, Bobrosky (though not so much this season), maybe Holtby (though not this season).

The better question might be not who's elite, but who would I start over Lundqvist at this point, because that list is a bit longer.

And you honestly dont believe Hank would have if not outperformed them but at least matched their stats if he played for those teams? I mean 2 of those examples are in the gutter stat wise where as Hank on his worst day never been where they are.

 

[usekakkorightquinn]

Georgiev to the Leafs for Bracco. Straight up one for one hockey trade. Makes way too much sense for both clubs.

Makes no sense. Bracco is 22 and can't make the NHL. There must be a reason for it. A 5'11 forward at 22 isn't worth close to Georgiev. I'd much rather do Smith, Georgiev for Jankowski, Bennett and a first. Our bottom 6 needs to be fixed quick. It blows.

 

[Edge]

And you honestly dont believe Hank would have if not outperformed them but at least matched their stats if he played for those teams? I mean 2 of those examples are in the gutter stat wise where as Hank on his worst day never been where they are.

I think if I was doing a fantasy draft, and all the NHL's goalies were available to me, there are probably somewhere between 10 and 15 I would pick at this point ahead of Lundqvist. Even with the poor performances you mentioned, I would probably still pick those two names, at this point, before I would pick Lundqvist.

 

[Siddi]

If you consider Henke still elite, there is really nothing else left to debate.

Love him and he is a top-5 goalie on the all time list for me, but elite he is no longer.

I pose the same question to you as I did to Edge. Who do you consider elite? Because if you look beyond sv% and GAA ans dive into the advanced stats, Hank is outperforming basically everbody you would consider elite.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Detroit is just so bleh

They have nothing I really want outside of pieces they won’t move

 

[Edge]

I pose the same question to you as I did to Edge. Who do you consider elite? Because if you look beyond sv% and GAA ans dive into the advanced stats, Hank is outperforming basically everbody you would consider elite.

Speaking of, I just looked at advanced stats, and beyond the fact that advanced goalie stats are somewhat murky (even by the admission of many advanced stats peeps), I'm not really sure what data you're pointing to. Because there are several measures by which Lundqvist doesn't even have the best advanced stats on his team or in his division, let alone outperforming basically everyone.

 

[RGY]

So what would we want from Detroit, or even LAK, if Lias is going the other way. And if Georgiev is attached. What are we looking at?

 

[TheDirtyH]

Off the top of my head:

Raask, Bishop, Bobrosky (though not so much this season), maybe Holtby (though not this season).

The better question might be not who's elite, but who would I start over Lundqvist at this point, because that list is a bit longer.

And for the record, I think there are teams Lundqvist could play for, that would mask some of his shortcomings at this stage in his career, for whom he could find success.

Not that I think Lundqvist is elite at this stage in the game, but would teams like, say, Boston, Dallas, and Washington mask some of his shortcomings?

It's not unreasonable to say that Henrik is still a bona-fide starter in this league and just because you have a long list of goalies you'd start before him doesn't mean there isn't ample evidence to support a much shorter list.

Like, I gotta wonder just on this why Bobrovsky would be ahead of him? Is that just going forward beyond this season. Even then that's a weird ranking. Holtby, too, for that matter...

 

[charliemurphy]

Makes no sense. Bracco is 22 and can't make the NHL. There must be a reason for it. A 5'11 forward at 22 isn't worth close to Georgiev. I'd much rather do Smith, Georgiev for Jankowski, Bennett and a first. Our bottom 6 needs to be fixed quick. It blows.

This when you google Toronto's depth at wing.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Phil is just the messenger here but apparently Freidman said this stuff on the latest episode of his podcast



The stuff about Georgiev being in their plans long term would line up with what @Edge is saying regarding Hank potentially retiring

And the Kreider part, I'll believe it when I see it. Until he's still on the roster after the deadline passes, I think he's gone