Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XX

[NYR Viper]

It's not "sexy" value at all, but if Frederic becomes a quality bottom-six forward and Heinen rebounds, that opens up a world of flexibility for Gorton. Heinen is young enough that he can be a core piece, or he can be flipped to a team who desperately needs scoring help. That's even before you consider the potential of what you can do with the pick.

That deal would be a coup in my mind though. Is that too much?

Kreider for Heinen + Frederic + BOS 1st

that seems like too much but I could be wrong even if the Rangers retained half his cap hit for the rest of the season

Dumb question, could the Rangers offer to take the remaining portion of Beleskey's salary from Boston as part of the deal?

 

[kovazub94]

Which is another variable, owing quite a bit to chance/good fortune.

Especially for a team that's had as much turnover at the Rangers, untangling deals from one another can be incredibly difficult. To some degree, a good chunk of the moves are interconnected and changing one variable has a butterfly effect that cascades across the entire organization.

In a world with salary caps and contract considerations, it's not easy to cherry pick the moves and players we want to keep. Certain contracts prevent other moves, and the assets you acquire and utilize, aren't available if you don't make the initial trade.

Yup, it's worth repeating it regularly that both a) rebuild trades (moves) to accumulate futures and b) these futures' development into roster players should be analysed cumulatively. Can't "win" all trades and won't have all prospects developed into their projected roles. That's just reality.

And in this regard having gone from one of the worst prospects pool to the very best one in under 2 years is remarkable.

 

[Trxjw]

Yeah I have a hard time understanding what is happening to him this year. even if he can get to 15-15 he's a valuable player. It's kind of a situation as well where he is a RFA at the end of the year and that can be a headache for a team up against the cap. Do you qualify him and fear him accepting to ~$1.4m next year or would you not and hope to get a contract ironed out with the fear of him not accepting and walking for nothing? For a team like the Rangers who probably doesn't fear the additional $500k in additional cap for next year he could be a valuable reclamation project.

Also, he played college at Providence so I would have to believe Quinn at least knows of him, he could have perhaps tried to recruit him for all we know

Jankowski reminds me of Kreider in a lot of ways. The tools are really enticing, so I can see why people projected him highly, but he's just never been able to put all those tools together consistently. Size, above average speed, pretty good hands, and a reasonably good 200ft game. He developed into a pretty decent penalty killer last year.

He's a guy that if he came in and had a decent stretch to end the year, I'd be happy to give a 1 year deal to just to keep insulating the kids as they progressed.

 

[wafflepadsave]

And truth be told, depending on the other pieces, he's not a bad pick up. He's produced in the NHL before and is signed for another year at a manageable number. So he provides a temporary fill-in for Kreider, or potentially allows for you to move Buchnevich over the summer for an upgrade elsewhere. If you can get him as a throw-in to balance the cap/roster spots, along with a 1st and a bottom-six prospect like Frederic, it's not bad value for a rental player.

Heinen, for all the crap he gets in Boston, came out of college as a very skilled player.

That’s cus the fans are conditioned to expect linebackers for players and he’s not that type.

 

[Trxjw]

That deal would be a coup in my mind though. Is that too much?

Kreider for Henein + Frederic + BOS 1st

that seems like too much but I could be wrong even if the Rangers retained half his cap hit for the rest of the season

Dumb question, could the Rangers offer to take the remaining portion of Beleskey's salary from Boston as part of the deal?

Given Heinen's recent usage and downward trend, I don't think it's an unreasonable ask for Kreider at 50% retention. That pick should be in the bottom 5 or 6 and Frederic, while potentially a very useful player, doesn't project as a high-end contributor. Plus the B's are loaded with middling prospects and are in full blown win-it-all mode.

So Frederic and the 1st for Kreider. Heinen for 50% retention and the affordance that the B's don't have to waive anyone.

 

[NYR Viper]

Jankowski reminds me of Kreider in a lot of ways. The tools are really enticing, so I can see why people projected him highly, but he's just never been able to put all those tools together consistently. Size, above average speed, pretty good hands, and a reasonably good 200ft game. He developed into a pretty decent penalty killer last year.

He's a guy that if he came in and had a decent stretch to end the year, I'd be happy to give a 1 year deal to just to keep insulating the kids as they progressed.

Agreed and he was drafted as an overager in the first round and then proceeded to play 4 years at Providence which was both odd and a surprise for most. His first year in the AHL, at 22-23 he was close to a ppg so there is offense there and he has good size like you said. He's 25 now so more than likely what we see is what we are going to get but his prior two seasons averaged about 30 points. As a depth winger/center that's nothing to scoff at from a guy who can provide a bit of an edge and plays at 6'4 ~215lbs

 

[Trxjw]

That’s cus the fans are conditioned to expect linebackers for players and he’s not that type.

That's definitely part of it, but I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he had a great rookie year that he's yet to come close to replicating.

 

[RGY]

Trading Skjei would be naive. He's a 2LD and a fine one at that, but we're playing him 1LD. Strome and Kreider should be gone by season's end. Staal too ideally.

Skjei’s constant mistakes and ineptitude is not because he is playing 1LD minutes. Its because he is a complete and utter moron. He is a dummy. A dumb hockey player with a low IQ. Its not bad coaching, although this team has plenty of it. The only thing him playing 1LD minutes is affecting is this team keeping the puck out of the net more because he is on the ice too much.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Given Heinen's recent usage and downward trend, I don't think it's an unreasonable ask for Kreider at 50% retention. That pick should be in the bottom 5 or 6 and Frederic, while potentially a very useful player, doesn't project as a high-end contributor. Plus the B's are loaded with middling prospects and are in full blown win-it-all mode.

So Frederic and the 1st for Kreider. Heinen for 50% retention and the affordance that the B's don't have to waive anyone.

Given Heinen's recent usage and downward trend, I don't think it's an unreasonable ask for Kreider at 50% retention. That pick should be in the bottom 5 or 6 and Frederic, while potentially a very useful player, doesn't project as a high-end contributor. Plus the B's are loaded with middling prospects and are in full blown win-it-all mode.

So Frederic and the 1st for Kreider. Heinen for 50% retention and the affordance that the B's don't have to waive anyone.

Yup this is how I view it. Boston has a bunch of guys that could step up and play Heinen's minutes adequately, and if you retain like mentioned you're giving them potential to acquire another depth defenseman or forward.

I don't count Frederic among those guys who could play those minutes in lieu of Heinen, so I can't imagine they'd be that upset losing him.

It's a deal that in my mind makes sense based on the landscape of things

 

[RGY]

1st, Heinen, and Frederic for Kreider at 50% is a deal I can live with. Call up Kravtsov and now you have 3 bodies to replace Kreider and Smith in the lineup.

 

[Edge]

That's definitely part of it, but I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that he had a great rookie year that he's yet to come close to replicating.

I expect that a lot of potential trade avenues over the next six months are not necessarily going to be the "sexy" option.

I expect you'll see names of players that are nice, but have some question marks. You might see former high picks who haven't put it all together, you might see guys who came in with strong rookie or sophomore campaigns, but saw their production fall off, and you're probably going to see some veteran names who don't necessarily wow you with their perceived upside or fantasy projections.

There's a good possibility we see the Rangers try to find guys like Strome, or Duclair or someone else who can see a jump from the right fit and the right system.

 

[Gardner McKay]

You trade Brady Skjei to a team wirh a real coach and you watch what you get. We’ll be kicking ourselves.

You know, I don't necessarily disagree and this coming from someone that likes Quinn.

I've been saying this a lot lately and frankly I think it is coincidence it keeps happening but... we got what we asked for and now people don't like it. This isn't directed at you by any means, your post is just a good spring board... you take a risk when you hire a guy who never coached at an NHL/AHL level. If you go back to some of the threads from the time period of post-AV firing but pre-Quinn hire, you will see a large amount of people calling for a "fresh coach" "not another NHL retread" etc.

Well, here we are. I don't think Quinn is the problem, I think it is Lindy Ruff. Ultimately, Quinn is responsible for Ruff and maybe Quinn doesn't see it as a problem. Maybe Quinn doesn't know better. I don't know.

What I do know is that even when Panarin and Zibanejad are straight up toying with opposing teams in the offensive zone, I still never see their defenses running around out of position the way our guys are. I actually don't think the defense is a dumpster fire, I think the defensive system is. I'm not saying we have a top-5 defense or anything, but right now this defense reminds me a lot of our entire team under AV - more concerned about the system then using guys to their strengths. While this system may have finally helped tap the potential of Tony DeAngelo, Skjei has regressed, Trouba has regressed (although I don't think it is as bad as some think) and I think there is much more to be had out of this group.

 

[kovazub94]

You know I had a crazy idea last night. What about:

EDM 1st + Yamamoto for Buchnevich

In the off-season:

EDM 1st + Hajek for Nurse

Similar idea to what happened with Trouba (although Buch is a RFA, not UFA like Hayes). Edmonton gets a winger to help gain some depth scoring and the Rangers eventually take on the LD they covet who will get a hefty contract in the off-season that Edmonton may not be able to (or want to?) afford.

Why do you need to trade Buchnevich - with restricted status and another year on his contract after this one - at the TDA and then have a separate trade in offseason, or did you mean to trade Kreider - the upcoming UFA?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

So last year it was points per game. Now this year, it's the assists that he is piling up? Just making sure that I keep up here. We try to explain away lack of production and now we are trying to explain away actual production all under the false pretense that "anyone" can just step in and do the same thing?

Maybe you're confused because you're misrepresenting my point, which is quite simple. Ryan Strome, who has been a middling center in the NHL for years now, is benefiting heavily from playing with Panarin. He should not be paid like he's doing this on his own.

More importantly, putting "anyone" in quotes when I didn't actually say that is disingenuous strawman garbage. There are centers that can step in and perform with a star like Panarin if Strome prices himself out.

 

[NYR Viper]

Why do you need to trade Buchnevich - with restricted status and another year on his contract after this one - at the TDA and then have a separate trade in offseason, or did you mean to trade Kreider - the upcoming UFA?

Don't need to, I would just assume Edmonton would want to get Buch in for their playoff run this season so there would be a value there for them

 

[NYR Viper]

1st, Heinen, and Frederic for Kreider at 50% is a deal I can live with. Call up Kravtsov and now you have 3 bodies to replace Kreider and Smith in the lineup.

Yeah that is the type of deal that would really help the depth on the NHL team right away and give Gorton more options.

 

[Trxjw]

I expect that a lot of potential trade avenues over the next six months are not necessarily going to be the "sexy" option.

I expect you'll see names of players that are nice, but have some question marks. You might see former high picks who haven't put it all together, you might see guys who came in with strong rookie or sophomore campaigns, but saw their production fall off, and you're probably going to see some veteran names who don't necessarily wow you with their perceived upside or fantasy projections.

There's a good possibility we see the Rangers try to find guys like Strome, or Duclair or someone else who can see a jump from the right fit and the right system.

And that makes perfect sense, in my opinion. Often we see the "I'd rather have a pick than prospect X" when discussing these things. While it's a nice fantasy to assume it will be another Jones or Shestyorkin, it's far more likely to be another Gropp or Nieves. So sometimes the real premium is in getting more of a known quantity, who can also contribute sooner rather than later.

It's also funny to see people pan a project like Bennett, while at the same time licking their chops over what Lemieux can become. Two guys who were taken 25 picks apart in 2014, and while one is the mayor of bust-ville, the other is poised to become a key contributor for the Rangers. Of course not every player is a late-bloomer, or will do well with a change of scenery, but there's huge potential for value in these players.

We've talked about it before, but I think it's fair to expect the Rangers to continue to try and do some harvesting from the 14/15/16 drafts looking for value.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

Don't need to, I would just assume Edmonton would want to get Buch in for their playoff run this season so there would be a value there for them

Wow -- I'm surprised there are people who actually believe Oilers will have a playoff run.

 

[Avery16]

You trade Brady Skjei to a team wirh a real coach and you watch what you get. We’ll be kicking ourselves.

Since trading Skjei should bring back a significant return and would allow us to protect another of Hajek/Lindgren in the expansion draft, and Rykov stepping up I don’t think we’ll be kicking ourselves for long, if at all.

 

[True Blue]

Maybe you're confused because you're misrepresenting my point, which is quite simple. Ryan Strome, who has been a middling center in the NHL for years now, is benefiting heavily from playing with Panarin. He should not be paid like he's doing this on his own.

More importantly, putting "anyone" in quotes when I didn't actually say that is disingenuous strawman garbage. There are centers that can step in and perform with a star like Panarin if Strome prices himself out.

No one is saying he should be getting paid like he is and has been a perennial 60+ point player.

Stating that he has been a middling center is also obfuscating some facts. He bounced around, he struggled but he is also just 26 years old. He was a former top-5 pick. Is there no credence that he started to regain his confidence when discovering comfort in a franchise and having a coaching staff that trusts him?

The "anyone" was not directed at you but rather my frustration at seeing essentially those types of opinions.

 

[True Blue]

It's not "sexy" value at all, but if Frederic becomes a quality bottom-six forward and Heinen rebounds, that opens up a world of flexibility for Gorton. Heinen is young enough that he can be a core piece, or he can be flipped to a team who desperately needs scoring help. That's even before you consider the potential of what you can do with the pick.

I would take Fredric, Beecher & a 1st for Kreider.

 

[duhmetreE]

Since trading Skjei should bring back a significant return and would allow us to protect more of Hajek/Lindgren/Rykov in the expansion draft, I don’t think we’ll be kicking ourselves for long, if at all.

I thought Rykov was exempt

 

[kovazub94]

It's unsettling to see @True Blue and @Bleed Ranger Blue go at it while essentially being on the same side. Which one is Bluer / the Bluest? : )

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Yeah well this board would have given up JT for a bag of pucks at that time so the collective brain trust here also got that one wrong.

Not everyone...

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Additionally, I don't know if Buch doesn't do the exact same thing as Miller in a scenario like Vancouver, or even Tampa.

The constant underrating of what JT Miller has done never ceases to amaze me. He is a consistent 50+ point player with a 20 game and 40 game stretch of being a PPG player.

Buchnevich broke the 50+ point pace hurdle last yest but didn’t hit it. He is pacing for 45 this year. He has gotten extended looks on a legit first line with Zibanejad and Kreider. It’s not like he is doing this on a 3rd line.