Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XX

[HFsNumber1Heel]

And that's the thing, it's not just one or two guys, and once in a while. It's happened multiple times.

Hell, even when this team was at its peak, there was the (unpopular) opinion that it was a little too chummy, chummy. A feeling that they were a little too content with their outside hobbies and hanging out together, rather than pushing each other. Concerns that there were too many guys content to go on vacation together, and maybe not enough to challenge each other to push harder.

Frankly, I haven't seen much to persuade me that there wasn't at least some degree of truth to that.

We've got people sad. We've got people who need to get out of their own heads. Etc. Etc.

I get it, but at some point, if everyone is having a existential crisis, it's not going to work on the ice.

And it hasn't, on too many nights, from guys who have been doing this too many years to have the excuse.

The best teams weren't always so chummy with each other. The Rangers under Torts and AV were.

 

[LORDE]

And that's the thing, it's not just one or two guys, and once in a while. It's happened multiple times.

Hell, even when this team was at its peak, there was the (unpopular) opinion that it was a little too chummy, chummy. A feeling that they were a little too content with their outside hobbies and hanging out together, rather than pushing each other. Concerns that there were too many guys content to go on vacation together, and maybe not enough to challenge each other to push harder.

Frankly, I haven't seen much to persuade me that there wasn't at least some degree of truth to that.

We've got people sad. We've got people who need to get out of their own heads. Etc. Etc.

I get it, but at some point, if everyone is having a existential crisis, it's not going to work on the ice.

And it hasn't, on too many nights, from guys who have been doing this too many years to have the excuse.

And at this point you have to wonder where it ends...

Zucc? Staal?

You changed GMs, coaches, multiple captains, popular players...

How deep does that rotten core go?

 

[Edge]

The best teams weren't always so chummy with each other. The Rangers under Torts and AV were.

I remember when Smith was brought in, and subsequently resigned. One of the "under the radar" comments at the time was that he was a more forceful personality who would challenge people --- more of a Type A if you will.

I always found that interesting in light of the conversations we've had on here, and some of the comments that have been made by management over the last year.

 

[Edge]

And at this point you have to wonder where it ends...

Zucc? Staal?

You changed GMs, coaches, multiple captains, popular players...

How deep does that rotten core go?

Well, I don't think it's rotten.

Rotton would indicate they are doing bad things or making bad choices. I've never gotten that impression.

I just don't think they're necessarily representative of the personality the Rangers are looking for moving forward.

I think it's a team in transition and it will continue to transition for the next little while.

But I don't think we're talking about a situation like Ottawa, where there have been questions raised for the better part of 15 years.

 

[LORDE]

Well, I don't think it's rotten.

Rotton would indicate they are doing bad things or making bad choices. I've never gotten that impression.

I just don't think they're necessarily representative of the personality the Rangers are looking for moving forward.

I think it's a team in transition and it will continue to transition for the next little while.

But I don't think we're talking about a situation like Ottawa, where there have been questions raised for the better part of 15 years.

Well certainly not. But Zucc’s comments tonight really make me wonder about that CC lifestyle we have been famous for.

Tough decisions have been made... certainly more and MAYBE tougher ones still to come and it doesn’t seem to be sitting well with some.

I have a hard time thinking that 7-3 6-2 and 5-0 to a horrid team means all is well behind the scenes also.

Well all knew this team was pretty bad but the results and comments by Quinn and Zucc tell of a deeper issue. Maybe I’m just reading into it

 

[Edge]

Well certainly not. But Zucc’s comments tonight really make me wonder about that CC lifestyle we have been famous for.

Tough decisions have been made... certainly more and MAYBE tougher ones still to come and it doesn’t seem to be sitting well with some.

I have a hard time thinking that 7-3 6-2 and 5-0 to a horrid team means all is well behind the scenes also.

Well all knew this team was pretty bad but the results and comments by Quinn and Zucc tell of a deeper issue. Maybe I’m just reading into it

I get the sense that Zucc and Quinn haven’t necessarily been on the same page for a while - based on comments here and there.

And it’s probably just the next part of the change that is, and needs to take place for the Rangers.

 

[Avery16]

I'm sure Zucc feels like he found a home here, and he left money on the table a couple times now to stay here. Now he basically knows he's going, but he doesn't know where and he doesn't know when. Maybe ya'll should try imagining that.

 

[Edge]

I'm sure Zucc feels like he found a home here, and he left money on the table a couple times now to stay here. Now he basically knows he's going, but he doesn't know where and he doesn't know when. Maybe ya'll should try imagining that.

In the grand scheme of problems to have in this world, or in a career, no that’s not quite making the list.

I’m sure it’s not the highlight of his life, or the most pleasant experience, but it’s not a crisis either.

And not one that 12 months later should be something that is treated as if it came out of nowhere.

 

[Machinehead]

It's our turn.

As much as I criticize the Rangers, it's totally our f***ing turn.

We've put in decades of trying to remain respectable. In doing so, we've made this league money hand over fist so they can feed the garbage teams that are soaking up all of the high picks. We've given everything. It's time to take.

If there's a god, and they care about hockey, the Rangers will get back-to-back top 3 picks.

 

[darko]

It's our turn.

As much as I criticize the Rangers, it's totally our ****ing turn.

We've put in decades of trying to remain respectable. In doing so, we've made this league money hand over fist so they can feed the garbage teams that are soaking up all of the high picks. We've given everything. It's time to take.

If there's a god, and they care about hockey, the Rangers will get back-to-back top 3 picks.

God is a Penguins fan.

 

[Machinehead]

God is a Penguins fan.

Yeah, apparently.

Funny how you knew exactly who I was talking about.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

It's our turn.

As much as I criticize the Rangers, it's totally our ****ing turn.

We've put in decades of trying to remain respectable. In doing so, we've made this league money hand over fist so they can feed the garbage teams that are soaking up all of the high picks. We've given everything. It's time to take.

If there's a god, and they care about hockey, the Rangers will get back-to-back top 3 picks.

The Rangers have not had a first overall pick since Nixon was in office. Yep. That's how long it has been. It's our time. Give us 2 in a row

 

[Ola]

And at this point you have to wonder where it ends...

Zucc? Staal?

You changed GMs, coaches, multiple captains, popular players...

How deep does that rotten core go?

Aren't things always rotten on crappy tanking teams? Think its more or less impossible to avoid.

Everything must be seen in its context. On one side you have 20 guys fighting tooth and nails to win games, trying to do the right thing. On the other side you have 20 guys who knows that they aren't really playing for any reason other than playing through a season, the more you lose the better. Then they of course are professionals and motivates themselves, push their careers, they are proud of what they do. I am sure these guys can't play Monopoly without showing emotions. But still, in contrast to the guys on the other side, you get more issues when tanking.

I hope nobody is surprised if we start to get issues with these things when tanking, I think it more or less have happened to every team that ever have tanked.

 

[Mikos87]

I remember when Smith was brought in, and subsequently resigned. One of the "under the radar" comments at the time was that he was a more forceful personality who would challenge people --- more of a Type A if you will.

I always found that interesting in light of the conversations we've had on here, and some of the comments that have been made by management over the last year.

That type of player was needed. But I think Smith lost a lot of credibility coming into last season the way he did. Especially after his last pay day.

 

[Idlerlee]

It pretty much sums up what we said. He needs to move on, but he will make another team better, so Rangers need to get something good in return.

No offense to Zucc but he is not a true leader, a leader just plays his game not let trade rumors or a slumping team effect his play on the ice or his personality in the lockeroom. Basically the interview is saying he is healthy physically but not mentally.

You could also make an argument that a leader cares. People aren't machines. I don't believe you for a second that you would not be emotional about leaving whats essentially become your family over the last 9 years. When you know that your world is essentially going to change drastically, soon, but when? That is going to mess with your head in more ways than one. Will he be traded to a contender? Will he be traded to a bottomfeeder team in a rebuild? Snow, wilderness and ice in Winnipeg? Sun and his buddies in Tampa?

The man has been leading by words and example ever since he broke through, and now he's the butt of pretty much every joke when he struggles. The man nearly died and to this very day suffers from the remnants of a brain injury from playing with the Rangers.

Nash got SO much shit here from so many people, and he went through several concussions and injury. Klein had injuries, and struggled his last season and also got shit talked about him enough for several schoolyards full of bullies. Bottom line, if any player struggles for whatever reason, for the love of god don't turn to the fans for support, there doesn't seem to be any.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

And at this point you have to wonder where it ends...

Zucc? Staal?

You changed GMs, coaches, multiple captains, popular players...

How deep does that rotten core go?

You're basically arguing that when teammates become too 'chummy' it leads to lesser results. The Rangers had one of the most successful teams for a decade with this 'chummy' attitude. I realize they didn't win the cup, but it's hardly believable that if they were to be run like the marines that they would have had better success.

I think because the Rangers won the cup with 2 leaders, Keenan and Messier, that were borderline psychopaths, we've come to believe that this type of attitude is the only one that will lead to success. It's quite clearly not. I mean.....there's evidence of varying degrees of chuminess on many teams that have won the cup recently.

It's a ridiculous notion and something you, me and most others haven't got a clue about. We only have small peeks into how these teams actually operate. We probably know less than 1% about what is actually going on inter-personally between these guys, their coaches and management. Moreover, we have almost no clue what it's like to exist on a professional sports team, let alone one in an enormous city like New York.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

You could also make an argument that a leader cares. People aren't machines. I don't believe you for a second that you would not be emotional about leaving whats essentially become your family over the last 9 years. When you know that your world is essentially going to change drastically, soon, but when? That is going to mess with your head in more ways than one. Will he be traded to a contender? Will he be traded to a bottomfeeder team in a rebuild? Snow, wilderness and ice in Winnipeg? Sun and his buddies in Tampa?

The man has been leading by words and example ever since he broke through, and now he's the butt of pretty much every joke when he struggles. The man nearly died and to this very day suffers from the remnants of a brain injury from playing with the Rangers.

Nash got SO much **** here from so many people, and he went through several concussions and injury. Klein had injuries, and struggled his last season and also got **** talked about him enough for several schoolyards full of bullies. Bottom line, if any player struggles for whatever reason, for the love of god don't turn to the fans for support, there doesn't seem to be any.

Unfortunately these pathetic and heartless attitudes mostly come from a spot of envy, jealousy or complete ignorance.

Take the Zucc situation in here for example. People are basically saying it's not a big deal, he should get over it, blah blah blah. I mean, I guess in the sense of worldwide issues it's not exactly at the top of the list, but this is probably one of the biggest changes (and most negative changes) in this guys life. It might not mean anything to any of us, because we mostly look at athletes as if they're currency, but to him it's a real human dilemma and frankly we have absolutely no idea what his personality is like, nor do we know how he is feeling about such things.

You are right that people aren't machines, but when it comes to athletes, fans for whatever reason expect them to be. Like most public figures, we hold them to far higher standards than we generally hold ourselves.

 

[haohmaru]

The Rangers have not had a first overall* pick since Nixon was in office. Yep. That's how long it has been. It's our time. Give us 2 in a row

* And, in typical Rangers fashion, he never played an NHL game.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

* And, in typical Rangers fashion, he never played an NHL game.

Neither did Orest Romashyna, Al Osborne, Art Hampson, Claude Gauthier, Alex Campbell, Bob Graham, Richie Bayes, Claude Chagnon
All drafted in the top-6 in the 60s. The draft was different back then. Out of all the players picked in the first round in the first 5 drafts, the Rangers had one of the best players in Brad Park though

 

[cheech70]

I love Zuke and him speaking from his heart to Larry shows the quality of his character. I was at the playoff game when they showed him on the center ice screen after being released from the hospital and the place went nuts. Most guys would just say nothing or give a politically correct answer. In church you would say he is repenting for his bad play. The good thing is that as Gorts negotiates his exit the acquiring party can rest assured somewhat that a change of scenery will bring back the old Zuke. @BBKers rumor is interesting Skej and Zuke for WN. At first glance seems a bit light from our side but the Leafs may believe that the old Zuke will reappear.

 

[wafflepadsave]

Trading Hayes, Zuccarello and anyone not in the future plans with value will net us a haul similar to last year and we will get better eventually. I'm not concerned, anyone who thought this was a 1 year or two year plan wasnt being realistic. Its 3+ and maybe more. A high end player or two at the draft would speed it up.

I would add that the plan is on schedule. They couldn’t ice a team that was awful out of the box. Things are starting to crack now so the weaknesses are exposed. Hopefully a sell off in February brings fruitful returns.

 

[Ola]

I do not see a quick turnaround. It's like I see a separate compartment entirely for creating a competitive defensive corps. While all components are related to the whole, this rebuild of the back end is going to be a tough nut to crack, and it matters a whole lot to what happens because it is way more of a weakness than the forwards. Chytil, Andersson, Howden, etc. are here. Those dice have been rolled, and let's see where they go. Can't second-guess absolutely everything, have to commit somewhere.
Commit energy and focus to fixing the woeful back end, use some of the existing vets as chips to get a start. The failure of the McIlrath pick still reverberates.

I get what you mean. But from my point of view its a bit like, a "long rebuild" isn't really an option either because if we are building a defense through the draft we are talking about a 7-8 years process at the very least. Guys like McAvoy that can come in and not only win a spot but actually carry a big role the first 2-3 years are so rare at the backend. Looking at the top minute loggers in this league, almost all started to really make a difference in their D+6-7 years at the earliest. From 2-3 some can fill a sweater, add another couple of years and they can take a little more ice time. But before you can play a big role on a team and be strong guy on a top 2 pairing -- it takes a really long time from the draft.

Look at Hanifin, Provorov and Sergachev as examples. D+5, +4 and +3 respectively. They have started to assume those bigger roles. Provorov will become a top D but its not like he is a top 20-30 D in this league already. It will take a few more years before he really is ready to be a difference maker and push the Flyers higher up the standings. Next year is D+5 for him, is that enough? He will continue to get better for the coming years. Somewhere around D+6-7 maybe before he can establish himself as a top 15 guy in the NHL maybe. Hanifin is in D+5, a No 3 D for Calgary. His role is increasing by the year. Give him 2-3 more years and he will be a top D for someone. D+7-8. How long before Makar can become a top D for Colorado, logg 25 minutes a night? D+2, he is still in College. D+3 will be rookies season and solid PP time but definitely not top ES time. The years tend to pile up. The mentioned examples aren't late bloomers, this timeframe applies for more or less everyone, with the very rare exception of like a McAvoy who got there around what D+2-3.

So lets say we luck out and get Jack Hughes this summer. The forward crew will somewhat be sat. Can we then move on and start to rebuild a defense through the draft in 2020-2022? First we draft a Provorov and then a Hanifin. Someone like those guys. The first ETA is like 2020+5-8 years. The other is like 2021+5-8 years.

And if we look at the successful rebuilds, they are almost always based on a blueline already in place or built on UFAs. Chicago with Keith and Seabrook being acquired before Towes and Kane. Boston with bring in Chara. Pittsburgh had Orpik and acquired Gonchar, Letang grew under their wings. LAK is a bit of an exception with DD, Jack Jonson and Voynov being drafted roughly around their forward core, that also consisted of vets Carter and Richards and Brown. To mirror them we would however have to go with a top D in the near future.

 

[wafflepadsave]

Gorton busy on the phone?

When it’s posted, I want to send it to brooks.

 

[egelband]

At the risk of speaking for someone, I don't think Kreiderman was saying Zucc's value was on par with Nash.

Rather, he was talking about the perceived drop in value.

In other words, if Zucc's value last year was a first and a prospect, it's not going to be a standalone second this year. The drop wasn't that huge.

I agree there’s a general appreciation of a player like Zuccarello’s value. That he’s playing poorly and will do better in a different situation. It doesn’t say much for his mental fortitude, though. Also, if a new contract doesn’t appear to be on the cards with his new team, will he revert to Sad Zucc?

 

[egelband]

And at this point you have to wonder where it ends...

Zucc? Staal?

You changed GMs, coaches, multiple captains, popular players...

How deep does that rotten core go?

I don’t think it’s rotten. It’s just a bit overripe and soft.