Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XX

[eco's bones]

Really its been just one.

Nash made some comments, but he still played hard. Grabner didn't want to leave either and he did the same.

Miller mailed it in, but he didn't really make a fuss about anything, at least publicly.

Nash seemed to work hard most nights but I was not impressed overall with his play the last 3 years--1st line time and opportunities--8 mil cap hit--and third line production. His just 'wanting to be one of the guys' is not what you want from a player expected to lead your team's offense.

 

[eco's bones]

Personally I'm not trading either Zibanejad or Skjei unless there's overpayment.

 

[Edge]

I don't know if I agree altogether with this. What I do think is whatever return we'd get back for him is not going to be great. I think the Rangers need to get that list from him nonetheless if only to have the process of trading him in play. On a deeper team Shatty could be protected from certain situations and if a team thinks he can help their power play which is a big deal in playoff situations there might be interest. IMO a 2nd rounder and a plus which is less than what we gave up for Brendan Smith would be an acceptable return. If we retain salary--a 2nd and a good prospect. I think if we don't ask for a 1st we'll have a fairly decent chance of moving him.

Well, I'd love for that to happen, but I just don't see it.

If his contract was up after this season, and there were signs of life, I think you could get someone to bite.

But man, those injuries, diminishing production and two more years of term just do not make for an enticing package.

 

[SA16]

Nash seemed to work hard most nights but I was not impressed overall with his play the last 3 years--1st line time and opportunities--8 mil cap hit--and third line production. His just 'wanting to be one of the guys' is not what you want from a player expected to lead your team's offense.

Nash provided first line production the last three years with second line ice time. His overall production was worse because he was not good on the PP.

Among the 264 forwards with 2000+ mins TOI at 5v5 from 2015-2018 he ranked:
1. 39th in goals/60
2. 96th in points/60
3. 177th in TOI/GP

However on the PP among forwards with 300+ mins he ranked:
1. 52/197 in goals/60
2. 166 in points/60
3. 139 in TOI/GP

 

[eco's bones]

Well, I'd love for that to happen, but I just don't see it.

If his contract was up after this season, and there were signs of life, I think you could get someone to bite.

But man, those injuries, diminishing production and two more years of term just do not make for an enticing package.

Retaining half his salary might be what makes it work though. Teams gear up for the playoffs and he's been a noted power play performer in the past.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Personally I'm not trading either Zibanejad or Skjei unless there's overpayment.

I just don’t see a reason to hold Skjei in that regard. He’s a good player, but there’s nothing special about his game, that warrants him being considered an essential keep going forward.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Skjei should be made available before Zibanejad is.

Everyone should be available for the right price.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

Personally I'm not trading either Zibanejad or Skjei unless there's overpayment.

What's overpayment? And what's underpayment?

 

[Avery16]

Nash seemed to work hard most nights but I was not impressed overall with his play the last 3 years--1st line time and opportunities--8 mil cap hit--and third line production. His just 'wanting to be one of the guys' is not what you want from a player expected to lead your team's offense.

This has always been my point with Nash. Attitude, conditioning, intangibles don't mean shit when you agree to that contract. The expectations are higher. Now people want to shit on Zuccarello who has made something like half as much as Nash ever, because he knows he's leaving this club and is conflicted? Give me a f***ing break.

 

[Edge]

Your last sentence is a bit of revisionist history. There were plenty of posters that wanted Zuccarello here and re-signed, and even pushed for him to be named captain because of how integral he was to the locker room. None of this was a foregone conclusion with many posters here. @Webster was not a lone voice on this matter.

As for the ‘athletes are humans, too’ refrain, yes they have to cope to with bad days, too. And, I do not begrudge anyone making as much money as they possibly can. But, do not expect me to have a hint of sympathy over these kind of matters. I don’t have the opportunity to share a lot of the experiences that professional athletes have. Lose a spouse or child? You have my deepest sympathies. Have to change locations because of a trade? Not really.

Yeah, it's not ideal. But I simply can't put it on the same level of day-to-day matters that...well...really matter.

Yeah, he might have to move (he knew it was coming for a year). But his salary isn't going down, and in a few months he gets to choose his destination and make millions of dollars to do it.

Again, it's a pain in the ass, and there's going to be emotions tied to it. But at the end of the day, he's not "losing" anything.

But even beyond that, he's a professional and he's in a leadership position. He's expected to help set a tone, even when there are days he might feeling punching a hole in the wall. That's the burden of leadership and that's that people expect.

 

[eco's bones]

Nash provided first line production the last three years with second line ice time. His overall production was worse because he was not good on the PP.

Among the 264 forwards with 2000+ mins TOI at 5v5 from 2015-2018 he ranked:
1. 39th in goals/60
2. 96th in points/60
3. 177th in TOI/GP

However on the PP among forwards with 300+ mins he ranked:
1. 52/197 in goals/60
2. 166 in points/60
3. 139 in TOI/GP

15 goals and 36 points in 60 games in 15-16.
23 goals and 38 points in 67 games in 16-17.
21 goals and 34 points in 71 games in 17-18.

These are the actual production numbers his final three years.

 

[Avery16]

This has always been my point with Nash. Attitude, conditioning, intangibles don't mean **** when you agree to that contract. The expectations are higher. Now people want to **** on Zuccarello who has made something like half as much as Nash ever, because he knows he's leaving this club and is conflicted? Give me a ****ing break.

Zuccarello, who btw was going out of his way to throw good hits on guys way bigger than him (like always) in the third period of a 5-0 blowout last night.

 

[eco's bones]

This has always been my point with Nash. Attitude, conditioning, intangibles don't mean **** when you agree to that contract. The expectations are higher. Now people want to **** on Zuccarello who has made something like half as much as Nash ever, because he knows he's leaving this club and is conflicted? Give me a ****ing break.

It's not that I don't understand it but you would hope for better.

 

[NYR Viper]

Retaining half his salary might be what makes it work though. Teams gear up for the playoffs and he's been a noted power play performer in the past.

I would NOT trade anyone on this roster whose contract runs longer than this year at half their cap hit. I'd rather hold them and see what transpires in the off-season or next season. Shattenkirk, Staal and Smith all have 2 years left after this one. I'd hang on to Shattenkirk and Staal for next season and see if I can find a deal for Smith ASAP. Just removing one of them will be a huge relief. McQuaid will be gone by the deadline. That leases 3 spots open for guys like Pionk, ADA, Claesson, Hajek, etc. Re-assess next year

 

[Edge]

Eh, I think most people just realize the marriage with Zucc is over and it's time to move on.

The extremes are that some people want to designate a safe space for him, and others want to run him out of town on a rail.

But I think most people would view it as a hug and a warm felt goodbye, and then we continue to move forward.

 

[Ola]

If, and only if, we luck out and get Jack Hughes this summer I definitely think we should put the pedal to the metal and try to get out of the rebuild ASAP. There is too many negatives with a rebuild, and the key with one should only be to get an 'usp'.

Lets say that Gorts deal Hayes for Colorado's 1st and Kaut, Zucc (plus a 2nd-3rd?) for a late 1st and say Shatty before the draft next summer. Brings back two more 1st round picks. Some other guys for later picks. Use a 2nd rounder to deal up with Colorado's 1st. We luck out and win the lottery. You take Hughes with our pick, another kid in the mid-1st and a third at the end of the 1st. 3-4 guys in the 2nd-3rd round. TDA from the Step trade. Lias and Chytil in the 2017 draft. Kravtsov, Miller and Lundkvist in 2018. Two more 1st round picks in 2019 besides Hughes. That is enough to constitute a very strong farm.

Then build around Hughes. Go out and like sign Erik Karlsson next summer. The year after guys like Trouba, Pietangelo and co might hit UFA. Never go for it or mortgage the future, just try to give yourself as many chances as possible to contend with a team built around Hughes.

Next year:
Kaut-Ziba-Kravtsov
Names-Chytil-Buch
Kreider-Hughes-Fast
Vesey-Lias-Vinny L
B Smith-Karlsson
Skjei-TDA
Staal-Pionk
Hank

The kids should have a solid chance to develop on that team. Young and enthusiastic. Probably be on the verge to make the POs if Hughes has a good year, he isn't McD II but I still think he could do some damage next season.

You add another 1st rounder in the summer of 2020. You let vet contracts expire and try to move Staal and Smith ASAP. Go out and get like Pieterangelo? Deal one of TDA/Pionk. The kids develop one more year. Add more picks.

The 2020 team should be a good PO team and have a heck of a farm. And a roster that only is getting better. The option from my POV is to keep tanking and get all kind of problems, poorly developed kids etc. You stop tanking when you get the 'usp', Hughes would be our 'usp'.

 

[eco's bones]

I just don’t see a reason to hold Skjei in that regard. He’s a good player, but there’s nothing special about his gasket, that warrants him being considered an essential keep going forward.

From my point of view I value Zibanejad over Skjei but we can't trade every single defenseman and Skjei IMO is the best we have. That's not saying a lot because I see him as a second paring guy but I still hold on to him.

 

[Avery16]

I would NOT trade anyone on this roster whose contract runs longer than this year at half their cap hit. I'd rather hold them and see what transpires in the off-season or next season. Shattenkirk, Staal and Smith all have 2 years left after this one. I'd hang on to Shattenkirk and Staal for next season and see if I can find a deal for Smith ASAP. Just removing one of them will be a huge relief. McQuaid will be gone by the deadline. That leases 3 spots open for guys like Pionk, ADA, Claesson, Hajek, etc. Re-assess next year

Retaining half his salary might be what makes it work though. Teams gear up for the playoffs and he's been a noted power play performer in the past.

I'd retain if it means a higher return. But there's no reason to retain just to move a body. You can always sit Shattenkirk.

 

[Avery16]

If, and only if, we luck out and get Jack Hughes this summer I definitely think we should put the pedal to the metal and try to get out of the rebuild ASAP. There is too many negatives with a rebuild, and the key with one should only be to get an 'usp'.

Lets say that Gorts deal Hayes for Colorado's 1st and Kaut, Zucc (plus a 2nd-3rd?) for a late 1st and say Shatty before the draft next summer. Brings back two more 1st round picks. Some other guys for later picks. Use a 2nd rounder to deal up with Colorado's 1st. We luck out and win the lottery. You take Hughes with our pick, another kid in the mid-1st and a third at the end of the 1st. 3-4 guys in the 2nd-3rd round. TDA from the Step trade. Lias and Chytil in the 2017 draft. Kravtsov, Miller and Lundkvist in 2018. Two more 1st round picks in 2019 besides Hughes. That is enough to constitute a very strong farm.

Then build around Hughes. Go out and like sign Erik Karlsson next summer. The year after guys like Trouba, Pietangelo and co might hit UFA. Never go for it or mortgage the future, just try to give yourself as many chances as possible to contend with a team built around Hughes.

Next year:
Kaut-Ziba-Kravtsov
Names-Chytil-Buch
Kreider-Hughes-Fast
Vesey-Lias-Vinny L
B Smith-Karlsson
Skjei-TDA
Staal-Pionk
Hank

The kids should have a solid chance to develop on that team. Young and enthusiastic. Probably be on the verge to make the POs if Hughes has a good year, he isn't McD II but I still think he could do some damage next season.

You add another 1st rounder in the summer of 2020. You let vet contracts expire and try to move Staal and Smith ASAP. Go out and get like Pieterangelo? Deal one of TDA/Pionk. The kids develop one more year. Add more picks.

The 2020 team should be a good PO team and have a heck of a farm. And a roster that only is getting better. The option from my POV is to keep tanking and get all kind of problems, poorly developed kids etc. You stop tanking when you get the 'usp', Hughes would be our 'usp'.

What about Kakko

 

[eco's bones]

This has always been my point with Nash. Attitude, conditioning, intangibles don't mean **** when you agree to that contract. The expectations are higher. Now people want to **** on Zuccarello who has made something like half as much as Nash ever, because he knows he's leaving this club and is conflicted? Give me a ****ing break.

Generally I agree with this. Again I understand Zuccarello's unhappiness--still....he's been disappointing.

 

[LORDE]

I think Zucc is gone by this time next week.

 

[Off Sides]

Shattenkirk, Smith, Staal

Between their contracts, performance, and clauses I don't think any of them are movable, unless they play better and are half retained on.

Without the playing better part first the other stuff does not materialize and even then Rangers are jumping through hoops, maybe even attaching something good, trying to figure a way out of them.

In my mind those three are sort of just on the cap until their contracts run out, yet if they can be moved for pretty much any return Gorton should be all ears.

 

[True Blue]

I think that if the Rangers retain 2/3 salary, they MIGHT have a chance to trade Staal to a contender looking to bolster their third pairing and get some veteran leadership. Trading Shattenkirk is a pipe dream. but I guess he needs to play in order to hope that he might raise his value a bit. Smith, otoh, I think is done for. He is both untradeable and if that is the case, just ship him to Hartford and try to forget about him for a few years.

For that matter, maybe Shattenkirk should be treated similarly. I just cannot see anyone taking him.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

He's going to make the big bucks anyway but hey I wouldn't want to live in Buffalo either. The Rangers have always been his team--if I were a player on the way out I'd probably be pissed too. But then again AFAIC the Rangers are the only team and NYC the best place to play.

He's not facing terminal cancer, nor is his mom. I agree, he will be overpaid but I don't think he'll get what Nash did. Like Brooks said, his market will be that of a middle-nine guy with offense. At his best, Zuccarello has always been a 2nd line player.

 

[Ola]

Jeff Gorton wants to acquire more youth. They want more than one first round pick. The Rangers have one first round pick in this next draft. The TB pick is conditional on them winning the Cup.

Gorton isn’t getting a 1st for Zuccarello. He can get a 1st for Hayes. Is that enough for Gorton? The TB #1 would be #31 overall. One pick away from a 2nd.

The only other players who can bring the Rangers a #1 in the trade are Zibanejad and Kreider.

Gorton doesn’t want to ice a bad team on purpose. The monstrosity he has playing right now sucks.

Continue losing games.

To be honest, I am not sure if this is true. Isn't it exactly that, that he has done? We sold off everyone we could at the deadline last season, looked horrible, and since then we have done very little to improve the team.

Which team have done more to tank before a season than Gorton have done this year? Look at Toronto, they added vets before getting Austin Matthews. Toronto got PAP, Boyes. Mathias and Grabner. They only traded away Kessel before the season IIRC. That was one of the worst tanking jobs I ever seen. My point is just that the average tanking team getting a FOA pick haven't dumped every single vet and not signed anyone.

Sure we have Ziba, Kreider, Zucc and co. Shatty. But Toronto also had vets, JVR, Kadri, Bozak, Phaneuf, PAP, Grabner, Gardiner, Komarov, Milan Michalek and co.