Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XX

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Maybe he values being on this team and in this city more than he values winning a cup. Fans used to appreciate that.

Yeah, so, I can't reach that conclusion considering he's doing the exact opposite of what someone would do if that were the situation.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Maybe he values being on this team and in this city more than he values winning a cup. Fans used to appreciate that.

Fans appreciated that when he was playing well.

 

[Chytilmania]

Hayes for Carolina 1st and Fox?

 

[McRanger]

I realize that, also. Yes, they’re called first world problems. I don’t normally have to worry about finding my next meal, having my home heated, my home being robbed, my water being unusable and other such comforts of living where I am. I don’t take that for granted. But, again, that should make Zuccarello’s ‘situation’ even sillier to be have concern about.

Meh, it should but it rarely does.

I am no better. My daughter just spent some time in the hospital on something minor and I spent the entire time having a coronary because I am a 37 year old man-boy with no ability to not freak out. If I were the parent of a different kid in the pediatrics ward (a kid with an actual serious problem) I probably would have wanted to punch me right in the dick.

As a Ranger fan I am irritated that he's messing up his trade value. But trying to judge how people should react to situations is dicey. You can't regulate emotion.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Hayes for Carolina 1st and Fox?

I would do that. Don't think Carolina does. They're 6 points out of a playoff spot.

Although at some point, some of these perpetual meddling teams have to make a move. How many years are you gonna be on the cusp?

 

[BearishRiggs]

Zucc has said many times he’s never wanted to play for another team. He’s a pro but also a human being. Imagine being in the place you’ve always dreamed of being, your ideal situation, you’re completely happy, and then knowing it’s about to be gone. Plus the dude has seen more and more of his friends shipped out over time. I know he’s a pro athlete, makes a ton of money, should be grateful, yadda yadda. But he’s probably torn up inside and it’s not surprising that someone who has always worn his emotions on his sleeve would let it affect his demeanor.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I think this conversation kind of highlights the point in my life I'm at.

I love hockey and really enjoy it. It gave me a great sport to play as a kid, launched my career, and many projects still take me in and out of the sport. But it's not the most important thing in my life.

And the truth is, I've spent a lot of time around people with major things going on and so it gives you perspective. Be it one's ability to support their family, or health, or other issues, those are things that have major impacts on life.

The things we're talking about here are unfortunate, or a pain, but they're not crises. They're just not.

Zucc may be disappointed, but in the grand scheme of things, this particular situation isn't really an adversity. It's an experience, it's an unpleasant experience, but it's not an adversity that must be overcome as life and livelihood hang in the balance.

Next week, Zucc may wake up in a different city, in a hotel room or apartment he is renting, and he'll still get paid, and he'll still do what he loves, and he'll still have his health. He won't worry about which utility bill to pay, he won't figure out he's going to eat, he won't have to calculate how much unemployment will pay him, or how to put clothes on his kid, or even what school they will be attending.

Zucc will be more okay than most people who have ever walked on this planet's soil.

And to bring up how 99% of the rest of the world exists in comparison to my life makes this discussion even sillier. This is nothing more than diversion in life. It’s fun, but frankly, people losing their collective minds over some of the stuff that goes on with this hockey team I just don’t feel the need to waste energy on. The Rangers winning or losing means absolutely nothing compared to what are the real concerns in my life. I enjoy the conversations, but I just can’t get worked up in the manner many here do.

 

[NYR Viper]

Here's an interesting one. Would anyone consider something around:

Brendan Smith for Riley Nash?

Contracts run out at the same time. Nash makes $2.75m per season and has had a very bad half a season after signing the 3-year deal.

What about a deal around:
Brendan Smith for Brandon Dubinsky

Deals run out the same time. Dubi makes $5.85m. Would Columbus retain $1.5m on Dubinsky's deal to match the cap hit?

 

[Ghost of jas]

Meh, it should but it rarely does.

I am no better. My daughter just spent some time in the hospital on something minor and I spent the entire time having a coronary because I am a 37 year old man-boy with no ability to not freak out. If I were the parent of a different kid in the pediatrics ward (a kid with an actual serious problem) I probably would have wanted to punch me right in the dick.

As a Ranger fan I am irritated that he's messing up his trade value. But trying to judge how people should react to situations is dicey. You can't regulate emotion.

But, again, that’s understandable because it’s your child. I fully get that. Look, I don’t expect people to have the same visceral reaction to my grandchild that I do. But, I’m long past the point of allowing sports to negatively impact my mental wellbeing.

 

[DutchShamrock]

East: Buffalo (8th place - 50 pts), Montreal (9 - 49) , Carolina (10- 43), Florida (11 - 41).
West: Dallas (7 - 48), Anaheim (8 - 45), Minnesota (10 - 43), Edmonton (11 - 43), Arizona (12 - 39), Chicago (13 - 39), LA (14 - 37), St. Louis (15 - 36).

These are the targets right now. All are some combination of on the bubble and desperate to qualify for post season play. I skipped the patient, rising teams like Vancouver.

The lower, the less likely they make a big deal IMO. But the cursed loser point let a bunch of these teams stick around and even Chicago is just 6 points back of a shot. The sooner the better if you want to get some separation.

There is enough to get some interest and bidding. No one is off limits. In a perfect world, Chicago and Edmonton bidding for Zuccarello drags Boston or Toronto into the mix.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Zucc has said many times he’s never wanted to play for another team. He’s a pro but also a human being. Imagine being in the place you’ve always dreamed of being, your ideal situation, you’re completely happy, and then knowing it’s about to be gone. Plus the dude has seen more and more of his friends shipped out over time. I know he’s a pro athlete, makes a ton of money, should be grateful, yadda yadda. But he’s probably torn up inside and it’s not surprising that someone who has always worn his emotions on his sleeve would let it affect his demeanor.

Nope, sorry, does not even influence my GAF meter.

 

[Edge]

Meh, it should but it rarely does.

I am no better. My daughter just spent some time in the hospital on something minor and I spent the entire time having a coronary because I am a 37 year old man-boy with no ability to not freak out. If I were the parent of a different kid in the pediatrics ward (a kid with an actual serious problem) I probably would have wanted to punch me right in the dick.

As a Ranger fan I am irritated that he's messing up his trade value. But trying to judge how people should react to situations is dicey. You can't regulate emotion.

Eh, I think there's a limit to that though.

It's no different than most work environments or business relationships.

If my lawyer falls into a depression because he lost a case and I see a drop in his ability to do his job, that's a problem. Same with my doctor, or my mechanic, or the guy coaching the Rangers, or the guys asked to maintain the ice.

To feel emotion is human, but you can still feel and apply yourself to what you're doing. I think the moping for the better part of a year is what is a bit of a turn-off for people.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I personally would prefer to try and go after Hall in 2020 than Panarin this year, assuming he hits FA.

Hall is a douche bag, no interest

 

[DutchShamrock]

I would do that. Don't think Carolina does. They're 6 points out of a playoff spot.

Although at some point, some of these perpetual meddling teams have to make a move. How many years are you gonna be on the cusp?

I would do it but the real issue is they don't need a center and they want scoring. I think dundon essentially gave the marching orders the to value offense over defense so Fox isn't off limits. I don't think 6 points is a problem either. There is pressure to win and score. He isn't a hockey savvy owner that appreciates the game and the development curve. And as Jas pointed out the other day, Waddell.

 

[Tawnos]

It might be ok with you to pay a forechecker 8 mill/season. Call me crazy, I expect more.

I will absolutely call you crazy for expecting more at the tail end of an 8 year deal when the player is 31-33. It’s not as if Nash stopped trying to give more. He wasn’t capable of it anymore, through no fault of his own.

This is a cautionary tale. If we do sign someone like Panarin for a long-term, it needs to come with the expectation that he’s not going to be the same player towards the end of the deal as he is right now. People can come down all across the spectrum on whether it’s worth the risk, but that HAS to be the expectation.

And again, the difference here with Zuccarello is that he’s not giving everything he possibly can, the way Nash (who didn’t want to leave NY any more than Zuccarello) had done.

 

[Avery16]

I will absolutely call you crazy for expecting more at the tail end of an 8 year deal when the player is 31-33. It’s not as if Nash stopped trying to give more. He wasn’t capable of it anymore, through no fault of his own.

This is a cautionary tale. If we do sign someone like Panarin for a long-term, it needs to come with the expectation that he’s not going to be the same player towards the end of the deal as he is right now. People can come down all across the spectrum on whether it’s worth the risk, but that HAS to be the expectation.

Ok, but if that’s true, and the last three seasons of Nash was totally foreseeable and not his fault, then trading for him was a bad move and we should not have done it.

 

[Edge]

I will absolutely call you crazy for expecting more at the tail end of an 8 year deal when the player is 31-33. It’s not as if Nash stopped trying to give more. He wasn’t capable of it anymore, through no fault of his own.

This is a cautionary tale. If we do sign someone like Panarin for a long-term, it needs to come with the expectation that he’s not going to be the same player towards the end of the deal as he is right now. People can come down all across the spectrum on whether it’s worth the risk, but that HAS to be the expectation.

That's why I think those deals make more sense when you're closing in on your window, or in it.

Past a certain point, you're paying more for a players past accomplishments than future ones. But those deals are easy to justify if you're getting some overlap in prime years with your window.

In our case, we're going to be signing guys who, even if everything falls into place, are going to be exiting those prime years just as we start entering our window, to say nothing about where the ability goes as we venture further into that window of time.

There's a tendency to approach these things like we're entering the summer of year three, as opposed to entering the one year anniversary of the letter.

 

[Avery16]

I will absolutely call you crazy for expecting more at the tail end of an 8 year deal when the player is 31-33. It’s not as if Nash stopped trying to give more. He wasn’t capable of it anymore, through no fault of his own.

This is a cautionary tale. If we do sign someone like Panarin for a long-term, it needs to come with the expectation that he’s not going to be the same player towards the end of the deal as he is right now. People can come down all across the spectrum on whether it’s worth the risk, but that HAS to be the expectation.

And again, the difference here with Zuccarello is that he’s not giving everything he possibly can, the way Nash (who didn’t want to leave NY any more than Zuccarello) had done.

Sure, degradation should be expected. And your point re Panarin I wholeheartedly agree with. Don’t sign him if you think we’ll have a .5 points/GP player for the final three seasons with a full NMC.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

35 years ago (or close to it) Eddie Johnstone bled Ranger blue. He was a very similar player to Callahan. Crowd loved him. Another undersized guy who played every shit like he was in fear of being sent back to the minors (I think it was New Haven back then). He was traded to Detroit. Life went on.

Jed Ortmeyer literally bled on the ice and helped usher in the dozen years of good hockey we all had. It was time for him to go because of new talent being given a chance. Life went on. And he's actually back in the org as we all know, doing good things.

My point about Zuc is he shouldn't get special treatment. Lots of HOF players end their career with other teams. Lots of very good players do as well. There was a playoff run that John Tonelli and Nick Fotiu were roomates together in Calgary when they went to the SCF in 1986. When you think of those two names the first image that comes up is the Rangers/Islanders rivalry.

Even Brian Leetch was traded. And for those who complain about the trade; Petr Sykora did more for the Rangers in his half season than Leetch did in his ten minutes in Toronto (the draft picks were just some bad luck with injuries and Korpi didn't gel in NY) He was welcomed back.

Zuc will return. Cally will return. Girardi will return.

Zuc needs to put his emotions aside or he may impact how soon he returns.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Meh, it should but it rarely does.

I am no better. My daughter just spent some time in the hospital on something minor and I spent the entire time having a coronary because I am a 37 year old man-boy with no ability to not freak out. If I were the parent of a different kid in the pediatrics ward (a kid with an actual serious problem) I probably would have wanted to punch me right in the dick.

As a Ranger fan I am irritated that he's messing up his trade value. But trying to judge how people should react to situations is dicey. You can't regulate emotion.

Good points, and I am somehow who does try to add "the human factor" when discussions go too far down the rabbit hole of advanced stats, etc.

But in this case, I am perplexed. Unless something is going on with Zuccarello that we don't know about, we can only assume he's upset that his buddies got traded away and he's now in his 30's on a team with no immediate prospects of contending for a title. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this is coming from a guy that is going to get traded within the next few weeks and can sign wherever he wants this summer. We don't know everything going on with him, but the situation is very bizarre considering what we do know.

 

[I Eat Crow]

It's our turn.

As much as I criticize the Rangers, it's totally our ****ing turn.

We've put in decades of trying to remain respectable. In doing so, we've made this league money hand over fist so they can feed the garbage teams that are soaking up all of the high picks. We've given everything. It's time to take.

If there's a god, and they care about hockey, the Rangers will get back-to-back top 3 picks.

f***ing right. I'm not even greedy. I'd take a pair of 2nd overall picks. Kakko and Lundell would help to turn this team around very quickly.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Zucc has said many times he’s never wanted to play for another team. He’s a pro but also a human being. Imagine being in the place you’ve always dreamed of being, your ideal situation, you’re completely happy, and then knowing it’s about to be gone. Plus the dude has seen more and more of his friends shipped out over time. I know he’s a pro athlete, makes a ton of money, should be grateful, yadda yadda. But he’s probably torn up inside and it’s not surprising that someone who has always worn his emotions on his sleeve would let it affect his demeanor.

I rarely buy the "I never want to play anywhere else line."

But even if that were true, he could resign here in July. And he's not only torpedoing his trade value to the organization he supposedly loves, but he's jeopardizing his own value on his next contract.

 

[Avery16]

That's why I think those deals make more sense when you're closing in on your window, or in it.

Past a certain point, you're paying more for a players past accomplishments than future ones. But those deals are easy to justify if you're getting some overlap in prime years with your window.

In our case, we're going to be signing guys who, even if everything falls into place, are going to be exiting those prime years just as we start entering our window, to say nothing about where the ability goes as we venture further into that window of time.

There's a tendency to approach these things like we're entering the summer of year three, as opposed to entering the one year anniversary of the letter.

Trading for Nash was a move for a player at the right time. However, it didn’t last. He wasn’t enough to close the deal, and then that contract prevented us from taking another meaningful run for the remainder of it, for which he was a shell. We would have been better off with Dubinsky and Anisimov. Maybe still not good enough, but better.

 

[Avery16]

I rarely buy the "I never want to play anymore else line."

But even if that were true, he could resign here in July. And he's not only torpedoing his trade value to the organization he supposedly loves, but he's jeopardizing how own value on his next contract.

Also- how much of his slump is this malaise, and how much is the injury?

 

[Tawnos]

Ok, but if that’s true, and the last three seasons of Nash was totally foreseeable and not his fault, then trading for him was a bad move and we should not have done it.

It’s foreseeable as a probability, not as a guarantee. Taking risks isn’t always a bad move, particularly when you’re in win-now mode. In the Rangers case, they got 3 solid seasons from him in the midst of what really was a 4 year window, and then some valuable assets for the rebuild once we reached that point. The trade, at this point, can easily be looked at as: the Rangers acquire 3 solid seasons and 2.5 weaker seasons of Nash, Buchnevich, most of K. Miller, Lindgren, Strome, and Beleskey for Dubinsky, Anisimov, Erixon, and Rychel. That’s not so bad when measured against the risk.