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Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XX (WTF are we going to do this Off-Season edition)

Machinehead said:
Soucy-Borgen cannot be a top-four pair. Just absolutely cannot be.

"They were a pair in Seattle!"

Seattle sucks.

If you want to go the route of getting a return for Panarin, upgrading the defense is 100% the way I would go.

If you replace Jones/Schneider with a legit upgrade, and that guy plus the remaining guy is your second pair, then it becomes not a bad defense.
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Ok switch them, they can be the 3rd pair
 
The core problem with the Rangers is they never draft a franchise center. Like, never ever. Ever Never Ever Never. It's almost comical. Actually, a tragedy at this point.

That being said, a lot of franchise centers that have won the Cup aren't thought of in the same stratosphere as Crosby - Kopitar, Barkov, ROR, etc... They are great players, great two way players, but certainly not "generational". And then there's guys like Tavares, Mathews, Thornton, etc... that haven't won a thing.

Maybe the next time they have a top 10 pick they should draft the best center available. Think about how the Kakko and Lafreniere drafts might've been different if they Rangers drafted the best center instead of the best player.

Sure, the fanbase would've screamed bloody murder but it's an organizational issue for 50 years.

Who is the best center we've ever drafted? Weight? Savard? JT Miller?
 
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I think it's fairly obvious why Colorado lost in the first round. Their management doesn't treat players the right away. They traded away a reliable depth defenseman in Calvin de Haan against his will and allowed another team to let him rot in the press box. They traded for Jimmy Vesey and then refused to play him. Ten total regular season games and zero in the playoffs. They traded away their second best forward because they have an artificial ceiling since they won't pay him more than their best player who signed with a lower cap. The players likely quit on the organization and revolted due to the mismanagement. Even Nathan MacKinnon looked absolutely miserable when Biz asked him a question about the Bednar impersonator behind the bench. He didn't sound like a guy excited to be playing playoff hockey.
 
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SA16 said:
I think it's fairly obvious why Colorado lost in the first round. Their management doesn't treat players the right away. They traded away a reliable depth defenseman in Calvin de Haan against his will and allowed another team to let him rot in the press box. They traded for Jimmy Vesey and then refused to play him. Ten total regular season games and zero in the playoffs. They traded away their second best forward because they have an artificial ceiling since they won't pay him more than their best player who signed with a lower cap. The players likely quit on the organization and revolted due to the mismanagement. Even Nathan MacKinnon looked absolutely miserable when Biz asked him a question about the Bednar impersonator behind the bench.
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I legit can’t tell the tone of this
 
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The reason I'm gunshy about doing short-term roster building right now is not so much "I think they should just tear it down!" You could have that discussion, but ultimately, they're probably not doing that, and it's more fun to discuss targets.

Nah, the bigger reason is that the UFA market sucks an entire butt, so now I have to make trades. I hate making up trades. All of this is fantasy but making up trades is ten times more unrealistic than making up signings.

With a signing, I just have to assume the person signs here. With a trade, I have to assume a return we're willing to part with, a return they're willing to accept, a return they're willing to part with, and a return we're willing to accept, and on top of that the willingness of certain guys to waive clauses and shit like that.

Plus UFA's are obvious targets, whereas there's absolutely no indication the Rangers have even considered guys I would suggest in a trade.

But if I had to do it: I've been thinking about Utah a lot. They were 8th in xGF%. They don't have a ton of talent but I really like the way they play. I like some of their guys.

What's Utah even doing? Are they rebuilding? Are they trying to get better? What's the outlook? This is why I hate doing trades.

I don't think Panarin goes to Utah willingly; maybe you get a third team involved. I would start with Panarin and Lafreniere. Lafreniere will be an unpopular selection but if you wanna say "but Machinehead we're not rebuilding!!!" then my moves have to address that he sucks right now.

But anyway, as far as what we give up, use your imagination.

I'm thinking about three guys. Nick Schmaltz -- I've wanted him for awhile. He scores at even strength. Period. That's the whole explanation. Josh Doan -- drove play at 5v5 last year like crazy. People talk about character and a certain style of play. You've seen his dad, right? Mikhail Sergachev -- LHD with term who's low-key really f***ing good.

Just spitballing here, but yeah. Why Utah? Hate to give you guys bad news but if you want any chance of getting back into contention quickly, which a lot of you do, we have to play Moneyball. We have to find good 5v5 players that aren't necessarily on everyone's radar.
 
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Machinehead said:
I agree with most of this but you still need players that are at a certain level of talent regardless of what you want to label it, especially if you want success to be sustainable.

Like, I'll give you Vegas. Eichel wasn't thought of as that level until after he won the Cup and Stone is far from a generational talent, you're absolutely right about that. At the same time, Vegas faced like .830 goaltending in the final two rounds. Everything had to go right.

To an extent, shit always goes right for the Cup winner, I understand that, but I think people in here harp on talent because they're tired of "everything has to go right" team building. They want the roster to have the ability to sustain multiple cracks at it. You're right the Avs lineup low-key kind of sucks, which I pointed out after the series, but they could find the right mix of depth any given year. It's sustained contention.

I think that's what people want more than anything. I think people have stopped taking this group seriously and are realizing they were never serious. People just want a serious chance to compete.

Also, beyond winning the Cup, I think people are just bored with not having elite players. I was at Yankee Stadium over the weekend. It sucked and the Yankees suck. Still, if I have to piss, I hold it until Aaron Judge bats because I might see him do something crazy. Again, the Yankees kind of suck, they haven't won with him, and tbh he sucks in the playoffs, but it's still fun. I haven't had a Rangers forward I can hang my hat on to be a a joy in my life.
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On the bolded, this is the case more often than any of us want to admit.

Colorado was a wagon in 2022 as they were but they faced...

A back up goalie and an overmatched Nashville in rd 1 (sweep)
A back up goalie after 2+ games vs a more game St Louis (6 gms)
Mike Smith in Rd 3 (sweep)
A Tampa team that was gassed and banged up to hell in the middle of their 3rd consecutive finals appearance (6 gms.)

I'll maintain that if Markstrom didn't forget how to stop a puck during the 2nd round that year, Colorado doesn't win and Tampa 3 peats. Colorado may have gotten by Calgary, but Calgary would have taken a chunk out of them that they wouldn't have been able to get over in the next round.

Matchups are almost as important as your roster. Last year's Carolina team is probably the best iteration of the Hurricanes over the last half decade or so that they've been good.

They'll likely sandwich that roster with 2 ECF appearances bc they had better matchups. NYR was a tough opponent for them bc Igor stops all of their bullshit and they figured out Carolina's PK before the series even started.
 
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haohmaru said:
The core problem with the Rangers is they never draft a franchise center. Like, never ever. Ever Never Ever Never. It's almost comical. Actually, a tragedy at this point.

That being said, a lot of franchise centers that have won the Cup aren't thought of in the same stratosphere as Crosby - Kopitar, Barkov, ROR, etc... They are great players, great two way players, but certainly not "generational". And then there's guys like Tavares, Mathews, Thornton, etc... that haven't won a thing.

Maybe the next time they have a top 10 pick they should draft the best center available. Think about how the Kakko and Lafreniere drafts might've been different if they Rangers drafted the best center instead of the best player.

Sure, the fanbase would've screamed bloody murder but it's an organizational issue for 50 years.

Who is the best center we've ever drafted? Weight? Savard? JT Miller?
Click to expand...

In 2017, they flubbed the C positioning with Lias who was supposed to be nearly NHL ready providing them immediate help on the 3rd line. That clearly didn't happen.

In 2018, no real good center went close to where we picked Kravtsov.

The 2021 stands out as "Hey, why are we drafting a LW?", but it wasn't a top pick and likely not gaining us that franchise center. Its tough to get a franchise center without a top pick or to being extremely lucky in that 10-15 range where teams fumble draft choices.

You can't bash them for drafting Kakko over somebody like Zegras/Pinto in that draft... The Rangers didn't have a ton of top 10 picks, and when they did, they were basically in a spot where they had to make those selections. Sure, saying a top C would be better than Laf right now for the team and our previous playoff runs, but that's a what if scenario, and I can't see most GM's doing it differently. It sucks that we have to look back at those 2 drafts and be unhappy where those rare draft positions landed us.
 
haohmaru said:
The core problem with the Rangers is they never draft a franchise center. Like, never ever. Ever Never Ever Never. It's almost comical. Actually, a tragedy at this point.

That being said, a lot of franchise centers that have won the Cup aren't thought of in the same stratosphere as Crosby - Kopitar, Barkov, ROR, etc... They are great players, great two way players, but certainly not "generational". And then there's guys like Tavares, Mathews, Thornton, etc... that haven't won a thing.

Maybe the next time they have a top 10 pick they should draft the best center available. Think about how the Kakko and Lafreniere drafts might've been different if they Rangers drafted the best center instead of the best player.

Sure, the fanbase would've screamed bloody murder but it's an organizational issue for 50 years.

Who is the best center we've ever drafted? Weight? Savard? JT Miller?
Click to expand...

No team’s GM would have dared to take anyone but Laf and Kakko in those spots (and no, I don’t care that a GM drafting 8th that year claims they had the guy they picked at the top 2 on “their board.” That’s just feel good bullshit for the player and their fans.)

The draft has often not fallen to the Rangers to draft a top C. Rangers draft slot last several years:

2024 - 30th (Emery, no top Cs have emerged after this pick yet)
2023 - 23rd (Perrault, no top Cs have emerged after this pick yet)
2022 - no first rounder, but would have drafted at slot 30, pick was Lambert, not a top C, nor have any shown up after this pick yet
2021 - 16th (Othmann, only real case would be Wyatt Johnston at 23, but… 22 other teams passed on him)
2020 - 1st, Laf, consensus top pick in the draft. Doesn’t matter what he or others have done, no one was under serious consideration to be this pick by any team.
2019 - 2nd, Kakko, consensus 2nd pick in the draft, no other player under serious consideration for this pick.

So in the last 6 drafts coming into 2025, the Rangers either weren’t in a position to take a “top C,” or took the consensus best players at their positions. The only argument is Johnston over Othmann, and even at the time, many felt Othmann was a better pick. It’s not that the Rangers refuse to draft them, it’s that they are always gone before they pick, or would have been a universally thought of ridiculous pick to make over whom they actually selected.

Getting a “Top C” in the draft requires years of horrendous sucking to get a top-3 choice 3-5 years or more in a row and hoping they all hit together to become competitive. The Rangers have never been that bad in modern history.
 
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TGWL said:
In 2017, they flubbed the C positioning with Lias who was supposed to be nearly NHL ready providing them immediate help on the 3rd line. That clearly didn't happen.

In 2018, no real good center went close to where we picked Kravtsov.

The 2021 stands out as "Hey, why are we drafting a LW?", but it wasn't a top pick and likely not gaining us that franchise center. Its tough to get a franchise center without a top pick or to being extremely lucky in that 10-15 range where teams fumble draft choices.

You can't bash them for drafting Kakko over somebody like Zegras/Pinto in that draft... The Rangers didn't have a ton of top 10 picks, and when they did, they were basically in a spot where they had to make those selections. Sure, saying a top C would be better than Laf right now for the team and our previous playoff runs, but that's a what if scenario, and I can't see most GM's doing it differently. It sucks that we have to look back at those 2 drafts and be unhappy where those rare draft positions landed us.
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2019? Take a look at all of the centers that went after Kakko - but, like I said, he was everyone's pick as #2 and some floating #1. I get it.
2018? Agree.
2017? There was a lot of doubt about Andersson's ceiling but I'll give you that everyone (including me) thought he'd be ready to slot in as a 3C pretty quickly. Didn't turn out well. And the other centers in the draft would like pretty good on this team.

I mean, I guess my point is that the Rangers NEVER make it organizational priority to draft decent centers. It's always BPA and that leads to four top six positions for 6 players - which leads to all of these "developing young forwards" discussions.
 
Machinehead said:
The reason I'm gunshy about doing short-term roster building right now is not so much "I think they should just tear it down!" You could have that discussion, but ultimately, they're probably not doing that, and it's more fun to discuss targets.

Nah, the bigger reason is that the UFA market sucks an entire butt, so now I have to make trades. I hate making up trades. All of this is fantasy but making up trades is ten times more unrealistic than making up signings.

With a signing, I just have to assume the person signs here. With a trade, I have to assume a return we're willing to part with, a return they're willing to accept, a return they're willing to part with, and a return we're willing to accept, and on top of that the willingness of certain guys to waive clauses and shit like that.

Plus UFA's are obvious targets, whereas there's absolutely no indication the Rangers have even considered guys I would suggest in a trade.

But if I had to do it: I've been thinking about Utah a lot. They were 8th in xGF%. They don't have a ton of talent but I really like the way they play. I like some of their guys.

What's Utah even doing? Are they rebuilding? Are they trying to get better? What's the outlook? This is why I hate doing trades.

I don't think Panarin goes to Utah willingly; maybe you get a third team involved. I would start with Panarin and Lafreniere. Lafreniere will be an unpopular selection but if you wanna say "but Machinehead we're not rebuilding!!!" then my moves have to address that he sucks right now.

But anyway, as far as what we give up, use your imagination.

I'm thinking about three guys. Nick Schmaltz -- I've wanted him for awhile. He scores at even strength. Period. That's the whole explanation. Josh Doan -- drove play at 5v5 last year like crazy. People talk about character and a certain style of play. You've seen his dad, right? Mikhail Sergachev -- LHD with term who's low-key really f***ing good.

Just spitballing here, but yeah. Why Utah? Hate to give you guys bad news but if you want any chance of getting back into contention quickly, which a lot of you do, we have to play Moneyball. We have to find good 5v5 players that aren't necessarily on everyone's radar.
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Also outside of Perreault, the Rangers really don’t have much to trade let’s just be honest here. Prospect pool is bad, still don’t have a surplus of picks, and outside of Lafreniere, Miller, and Schneider everyone else with value has a NTC or NMC. Making trades is not going to be easy for Drury. Nevermind I have no trust in him. Just making trades with where the organization is at is going to be difficult.
 
Dfence033 said:
No team’s GM would have dared to take anyone but Laf and Kakko in those spots (and no, I don’t care that a GM drafting 8th that year claims they had the guy they picked at the top 2 on “their board.” That’s just feel good bullshit for the player and their fans.)

The draft has often not fallen to the Rangers to draft a top C. Rangers draft slot last several years:

2024 - 30th (Emery, no top Cs have emerged after this pick yet)
2023 - 23rd (Perrault, no top Cs have emerged after this pick yet)
2022 - no first rounder, but would have drafted at slot 30, pick was Lambert, not a top C, nor have any shown up after this pick yet
2021 - 16th (Othmann, only real case would be Wyatt Johnston at 23, but… 22 other teams passed on him)
2020 - 1st, Laf, consensus top pick in the draft. Doesn’t matter what he or others have done, no one was under serious consideration to be this pick by any team.
2019 - 2nd, Kakko, consensus 2nd pick in the draft, no other player under serious consideration for this pick.

So in the last 6 drafts coming into 2025, the Rangers either weren’t in a position to take a “top C,” or took the consensus best players at their positions. The only argument is Johnston over Othmann, and even at the time, many felt Othmann was a better pick. It’s not that the Rangers refuse to draft them, it’s that they are always gone before they pick, or would have been a universally thought of ridiculous pick to make over whom they actually selected.

Getting a “Top C” in the draft requires years of horrendous sucking to get a top-3 choice 3-5 years or more in a row and hoping they all hit together to become competitive. The Rangers have never been that bad in modern history.
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Agree about Kakko and Lafreniere being drafted where they were and probably would've been drafted as they were by every other NHL team.

Agree on your other points as well.

"Getting a 'Top C' in the draft" was just bad luck the two years they were actually in a position to draft 1OA and 2OA.
 
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McRanger92 said:
Miller-Fox
Soucy-Borgen
Jones-Schneider
Vaakanainen

I feel like thats actually not a bad defense if they run a zone D instead of the man on man crap they have the last few years.
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Defenses at least for the RS are mostly fungible in the defensive zone, the difference is in forwards backchecking and effort level.

You get really strong buy in from forwards, that group will look good. You get December/January levels of gliding then 6 prime Ray Bourques will look bad.
 
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I like the Rangers youth a lot. I dont like handwaving it because the guys dont show up on top prospect lists or not drafted high.

Cuylle, Rempe, Edstrom, Berard, Othmann, Perreault all should have NHL roles next year. Sykora, Roobreck, Laba and others can challenge for spots as the season goes on imo. Sullivan has on record lamented the fact that Pittsburgh hasnt had many young players to incorporate. He's got his chance now. Let the kids play. There's the upside. I just wish one of them was a center lol. Maybe try Edstrom or Perreault there?
 
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Machinehead said:
The team getting good again after that is a project that I think is at least a year or two.

Best case scenario, you get a big return for him. It still needs time to cook.

I think they could make the playoffs because the East is a men's league, but this team isn't really in the Cup conversation with Panarin, let alone after subtracting him, which still objectively makes the team worse tomorrow regardless of how you feel about him or whether or not it helps in the long-run.
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Panarin’s play with the NYR in the playoffs has been nothing extraordinary. He’s not (or at least has not been) a difference maker in the post season. The main question is “can NYR MAKE the post season without Panarin?”, rather than “are they a cup contender without him?”… If they can make the post season, which they should, Panarin’s presence is not make or break as far as contention IMO.
 
bhamill said:
Panarin’s play with the NYR in the playoffs has been nothing extraordinary. He’s not (or at least has not been) a difference maker in the post season. The main question is “can NYR MAKE the post season without Panarin?”, rather than “are they a cup contender without him?”… If they can make the post season, which they should, Panarin’s presence is not make or break as far as contention IMO.
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Panarin has 35 points in 46 playoff games. That's not exactly replacement level.

And my point was that they're not particularly close with him, so they would need better than that.
 
haohmaru said:
2019? Take a look at all of the centers that went after Kakko - but, like I said, he was everyone's pick as #2 and some floating #1. I get it.
2018? Agree.
2017? There was a lot of doubt about Andersson's ceiling but I'll give you that everyone (including me) thought he'd be ready to slot in as a 3C pretty quickly. Didn't turn out well. And the other centers in the draft would like pretty good on this team.

I mean, I guess my point is that the Rangers NEVER make it organizational priority to draft decent centers. It's always BPA and that leads to four top six positions for 6 players - which leads to all of these "developing young forwards" discussions.
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This is the first round and many were much later picks. It's not worth looking at round 2 because nobody is doing that with the 2nd overall pick. Dach, Trucotte, Cozens, Zegras, and Pinto, Tomasino, Ryan Suzuki.

None of them have been franchise centers. There's a bunch of disappointments there that have been traded or constantly being talked about being traded. I can't sit here and say we wouldn't be in a better place with them, as obviously Cozens on his game provides much more help for us than a winger, but just like Kakko, all these years later we're still talking about the consistent level of play from him.

In 2017, Rangers drafted 4 centers out of the 7 draft picks. 0 are still with the organization. We haven't been able to really hit and that's frustrating. Chytil was likable and clearly had NHL talent but even with him we questioned longer term center or winger.
 
McRanger92 said:
I like the Rangers youth a lot. I dont like handwaving it because the guys dont show up on top prospect lists or not drafted high.

Cuylle, Rempe, Edstrom, Berard, Othmann, Perreault all should have NHL roles next year. Sykora, Roobreck, Laba and others can challenge for spots as the season goes on imo. Sullivan has on record lamented the fact that Pittsburgh hasnt had many young players to incorporate. He's got his chance now. Let the kids play. There's the upside. I just wish one of them was a center lol. Maybe try Edstrom or Perreault there?
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It's nice depth pieces,but outside of Gabe,none of them scream high end talent.There lies the problem..A bunch of quality bottom 6 players.Nothing wrong with it,but you aren't contending for a Cup with a prospect pool like ours without high end cheap talent mixed into the lineup
 
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Utah is going for a very slow incremental build that keeps costs down and all FO people employed as they go from 13th to 12th to 10th and waste Clayton Kellers career.

They're not gonna do anything except keep hording Russian draft picks.
 
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