Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVIII

[RangersFan1994]

Jost and Bennett got drafted high because they dominated juniors, and interviewed very very well. These are picks where scouts go gaga over a kid that is mature among boys and works his ass off without being athletically gifted.

Picks like these are mistakes in the top 10, but great picks in the late first and 2nd.

It wasn't too long ago the Rangers picked a player in the top ten that's not to dissimilar from Jost and Bennett. One that I have growing concerns about his viability as an NHLer.

Bennett transformed his game to carve out an NHL career. Jost will have to do the same. It's just a bad yield for a top 10 pick.

I would love Bennett on NYR. I wonder if Kreider and Fast for 1st, Bennett + can work out. Bennett is also tough and a pest to play against, him and Lemmy would be fun to watch

 

[Edge]

And that is all fine and good. I just don’t think there is any evidence whatsoever Jost can be a top six wing. If it hasn’t happened in Colorado, don’t know who is unlocking that here. I don’t know if you throw the money that you threw at Bukarovsky and Donskoi is you think Jost can do that role. That being said is rather pay more and get Nylander than try to extract something out of Jost. The Rangers uplevel at this stage by getting top line players, and top pair defensemen. They have the middle areas covered. If they want to get back to contending they need better talent. I am perfectly fine going after Nylander. Maybe the Rangers don’t have to choose, and that is great as long as one move isn’t prohibitive to another.

I think it's more nuanced than that. It's not necessarily Jost or Nylander. Additionally, it's not just about paying more in the trade. You're talking about working in a $7 million salary vs. a $1 million salary. You're also talking about trading better assets vs. trading an expiring UFA contract, so it's not really an apples to apples debate.

With regards to Jost, I also don't think it's as black and white as "well he's only a 15/15 guy and if he was more Colorado would use him as a wing." I mean if that were the case, only established players would be moved, Zibanejad would still be potting 50 points a year, and we would've just thrown Pionk into the same situations that Winnipeg is now. There's more to it than that.

So why would the Rangers think they can extract something out of Jost?

His age. His role there vs. here. The system they play vs. what we play. The players we'd pair him with vs. the players he paired with. Etc.

Moving forward you'll probably see a mix of guys who are established, and come with a premium price tag, and guys you try buy low on and hope they fit what you're doing. That's where you find guys who fit in like Strome has, like Grabner did, and countless others. It's also why players leaving the Rangers find better fits elsewhere.

The quest is always for better talent. But the Rangers don't work in a vacuum either.

 

[wafflepadsave]

Sure, but not to sound harsh, but I think there are obvious reasons that the Avalanche are willing to move Jost. The idea of getting a young NHL ready player is fine, but I don’t think the Rangers have any use for a center/winger tweener who is a top six/middle six tweener. The Ranger roster is filling up. If they are going to be getting guys under contract, they need to be able to fulfill a specific role. Jost - I don’t know what he does but I know he doesn’t get more than 30 points a season. So he isn’t really a top six score, and he isn’t going to give a ton of jam. What is he? I bet the Avalanche are asking that themselves too based on their recent acquisitions. It’s a suckers bet.

Getting another 1st would not be the worst thing in the world. In fact I don’t know what’s stopping the Rangers from spending their futures on a more established player if they want to go that route. There isn’t enough room for everyone on defense, and you can always draft more. I’ve been pretty vocal about wanting to go for Lindholm from Anaheim. That’s the kind of move the Rangers should be making. I don’t know what Jost has going for him besides that he was a former 1st rounder. I don’t see how his game has translated to the NHL level. But maybe that’s just me.

I think they will use that currency just as soon as a team realizes their cupboard is empty and need some kids.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm not totally convinced the Rangers would not have been better off with picks concerning player like Howden, Hajek, Lindgren, etc. Not that I dislike them, just seems like they are going to turn into secondary players, maybe.

Therefor I'm not sure that is all that different than taking picks instead then using those picks for a higher potential player who happens to become available, Fox for example.

Rangers are a preferred destination for players, if other teams have to move someone because they just do not want to be there anymore, the Rangers have a pretty good chance at being on their list of want to go there. If so it may come down to if the Rangers have the picks as currency at that point or not.

To use Jost as an example, I'd rather have the picks and hope that some higher potential player shakes loose, whether that player be an on the cusp of the NHL prospect (Fox), a RFA who is doing the I'm not signing long term thing (Trouba), or even a good vet who is just looking to get out from where he is at.

I see it as remaining more flexible instead of just taking the best of whats available at the deadline, which when it comes to high potential near or already in the NHL players, it is pretty rare that they move.

Like @Edge was saying, you need more than high-end players to fill out a roster. Secondary players is as much, or more, than you should reasonably be expecting out of late 1st and 2nd round picks.

 

[Edge]

I think they will use that currency just as soon as a team realizes their cupboard is empty and need some kids.

I think it's also important to note that not every move is viewed as transformational. Sometimes it's a complimentary move.

So let's use Nylander and Jost as examples.

Let's say the Rangers move Skjei and Kravtsov in a deal for Nylander and a bottom six wing. They slide Nylander onto the second line as a focal point.

Let's then say the Rangers move Kreider for Jost and slide Jost into the second line LW spot as a support piece.

Let's say in the offseason they move Buch for a LD --- let's say Nurse, just to put a name out there. Obviously, Nurse is seen as necessary to replace Skjei.

Let's also say the Rangers move Georgiev and Strome for any number of possibilities --- a third line center, depth on the wings, another LHD, whatever.

That's the kind of thing they'll be looking, over a number of time periods --- this spring, this summer, next season, and beyond.

These moves can and will include prospects and picks we don't even have yet, they could include prospects we really like, and players we don't like. It will be a mix. But one of the keys to remember is that it's not a matter of one move, or even two. We're not going to solve every problem that way. Multiple holes will require multiple deals. And not all of them are going to be homerun swings. It will be a mix of homerun swings, singles, doubles and even bunts.

The roster we see today, on Dec. 18, 2019, is going to look very different --- it's just a matter of when and how.

And it might not be Nylander, or Jost. It could be Fredric and whoever. So Nylander and Jost isn't the only approach the Rangers are taking, it's merely one approach that they've explored.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Just thought I’d leave this here.

 

[Irishguy42]

LOL if Kreider gets a 1st+ mid-level prospect after what Hall got.

Hall basically got a 1st+3rd, with a small chance at 1st+2nd

 

[Tawnos]

Just thought I’d leave this here.

Are you sure that's what you thought? You didn't mean to put it somewhere else? How can we really know your true intentions?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I would love Bennett on NYR. I wonder if Kreider and Fast for 1st, Bennett + can work out. Bennett is also tough and a pest to play against, him and Lemmy would be fun to watch

Bennett? Seriously?

 

[Tawnos]

LOL if Kreider gets a 1st+ mid-level prospect after what Hall got.

Hall basically got a 1st+3rd, with a small chance at 1st+2nd

Hall got a 1st + 2/3 + 2 mid-level prospects + 1 C-prospect. I think it's reasonable to expect Kreider to get a 1st and a mid-level prospect.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

So, just reading this one tidbit alone, Brooks wants Kreider to go around elbowing players in retaliation? Slew footing? Blindside hits?

i mean what was he supposed to do? He has played the same physical game with the occasional big hit once in awhile.

Brooks is an asshat.

Kreider is a big player with speed, he uses neither on a regular basis. I love his ability and skill but he is a pretty passive player given his physical attributes. Of all players on our team that could force dmen into mistakes by barreling in on them he is the one that could but doesnt have the biggest impact. Zuc as small as he was was more physical than Kreider in all areas of the ice.

 

[rangersfansince08]

Just thought I’d leave this here.

But Avs and Oilers fans on the Main Board said we wouldn't get that.

 

[Off Sides]

Eh, I'm iffy on that one. I think as a board we've become fixated on stars. We need stars and everyone wants stars. But even getting secondary players is essential and considered a success. There's only so many stars out there, and when you start getting into late first round picks and second rounders (which is what we would've received instead of Howden, Hajek, Lindgren), your odds aren't great.

If anything, a "very good" outcome with those picks would be coming with the names we're discussing, because the odds of landing a star is pretty slim.

That also doesn't take into account the challenge that instead of being 21/22, those kids are 19/20 and that much further from reaching their potential, assuming you managed to land someone who develops in the first place.

The problem with draft picks is that they're like young political candidates without years of voting records to be held against them. We can mold them into whatever we want in our own minds, and the outcome will always look better than what we have.

My point was not for them to necessarily use the picks, but to parley them into something of better potential who is closer to NHL or already in it, or maybe even use them to move up in the draft to get a prospect who is closer to NHL ready. Mostly they would have more options to do such and such if they did not trade for the next set of Howden, Hajek, etc.

Now that they have secondary players, do they really need more of them?

Rather than add to the secondary players, which they can probably get through other means, it kind of seems like they need the higher potential guys at this point, especially if they are selling off Kreider, not extending Stome past his one remaining RFA year, and being they can not be that confident that Kravtsov, Lias, Howden, etc are going to reach their potential.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Send Kreider to Montreal for Poehling and a pick, I'd rather have a more ready prospect than the 1st rounder at this point in the rebuild.

 

[Fitzy]

Hall got a 1st + 2/3 + 2 mid-level prospects + 1 C-prospect. I think it's reasonable to expect Kreider to get a 1st and a mid-level prospect.

Plus our return could be lottery protected or playoff protected. Arizona's wasn't.

 

[bobbop]

Listen to Dreger. He is talking about Kreider’s full body of work, not the last three months.

I’ve always felt the perception of Kreider is greater than the reality. For us, that can be disappointing. For a team looking for a piece to make a Cup run, that is great news for the Rangers.

Kreider is a big brand name with a playoff track record. If he is traded, he will bring back a good return.

 

[Irishguy42]

Hall got a 1st + 2/3 + 2 mid-level prospects + 1 C-prospect. I think it's reasonable to expect Kreider to get a 1st and a mid-level prospect.

Well, in actuality, Hall got three nothing prospects, but I guess since most GMs are bad, they actually value those players higher.

So maybe 1st+prospect isn't so far-fetched.

 

[Tawnos]

Well, in actuality, Hall got three nothing prospects, but I guess since most GMs are bad, they actually value those players higher.

So maybe 1st+prospect isn't so far-fetched.

Those guys aren't any more or less of prospects than Lindgren or Lemieux were. Yet both came with 1st for rentals of a similar caliber to Kreider.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I think it's more nuanced than that. It's not necessarily Jost or Nylander. Additionally, it's not just about paying more in the trade. You're talking about working in a $7 million salary vs. a $1 million salary. You're also talking about trading better assets vs. trading an expiring UFA contract, so it's not really an apples to apples debate.

With regards to Jost, I also don't think it's as black and white as "well he's only a 15/15 guy and if he was more Colorado would use him as a wing." I mean if that were the case, only established players would be moved, Zibanejad would still be potting 50 points a year, and we would've just thrown Pionk into the same situations that Winnipeg is now. There's more to it than that.

So why would the Rangers think they can extract something out of Jost?

His age. His role there vs. here. The system they play vs. what we play. The players we'd pair him with vs. the players he paired with. Etc.

Moving forward you'll probably see a mix of guys who are established, and come with a premium price tag, and guys you try buy low on and hope they fit what you're doing. That's where you find guys who fit in like Strome has, like Grabner did, and countless others. It's also why players leaving the Rangers find better fits elsewhere.

The quest is always for better talent. But the Rangers don't work in a vacuum either.

Just an addendum to the lineup filling up bit - is it really? We have Brendan Smith slotted in as a bottom-6 W, and the only player in our bottom-6 that appears to be worth keeping at the moment is Brendan Lemieux. McKegg is the typical JAG that can be replaced in FA every year. I'm not sure what Howden needs at the moment, but I hope they figure out some way to get this kid's game turned around. Are they re-signing Fast or Strome? Will Kravtsov be ready by next year? Is Lias even going to be in this organization?

I still see way more question marks than certainties moving forward, and the only forwards I see being entrenched here over the next 3-5 years are Panarin, Mika, Kakko, Chytil, Buch, and Lemieux.

 

[romba]

LOL if Kreider gets a 1st+ mid-level prospect after what Hall got.

Hall basically got a 1st+3rd, with a small chance at 1st+2nd

Wait, that's all Hall got?!? Shero was probably worried he'll get injured and completely kill the value so he took the best he could get now. Man oh man, come TDL trade partners are going to try to use Hall to drive the price down on CK. Stay strong JG.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Listen to Dreger. He is talking about Kreider’s full body of work, not the last three months.

I’ve always felt the perception of Kreider is greater than the reality. For us, that can be disappointing. For a team looking for a piece to make a Cup run, that is great news for the Rangers.

Kreider is a big brand name with a playoff track record. If he is traded, he will bring back a good return.

Yup. Even if 90% of the league is evaluating him on the basis of his recent play, it only takes *one* GM with this mindset. And this mindset will get more prevalent with GMs as the TDL approaches, especially since Krieder does have high level performance in late-round playoff games on his resume.

Which is not to say I think the Rangers will get some ridiculous package. But I think they'll match what they got for Hayes last year, perhaps a smidge better.

 

[Tawnos]

Plus our return could be lottery protected or playoff protected. Arizona's wasn't.

Arizona's 2020 pick was lottery protected.

 

[Tawnos]

Wait, that's all Hall got?!? Shero was probably worried he'll get injured and completely kill the value so he took the best he could get now. Man oh man, come TDL trade partners are going to try to use Hall to drive the price down on CK. Stay strong JG.

It's not. He's spinning it in a totally negative way that doesn't reflect reality.

 

[Fitzy]

Arizona's 2020 pick was lottery protected.

I stand corrected.

 

[romba]

CK's had playoff success and some big playoff goals a a time when the team really struggled to find scoring. He's fast and can be a physical force. He should generate strong interest at the TDL