Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVIII

[Ola]

Jost is a weird one. He was electric when he played for the Fighting Sioux. At the NHL level he now has 171 GP. Only 29 goals in that time frame. Granted he is only 21 still. Just feel like at the NHL level i never watched him and said, man he's going to be good one.

Yeah, but this is kind of illustrative of most kids trying to break into the league right now.

Looking at the 2016 draft, outside the top 7 only Debrincat is scoring a lot in the top 2 rounds. Many Ds are doing great, many forwards look promising, but only Debrincat of a big sample size is really hitting it off. And its kind of the same with the 2017 draft. These kids looks promising when they start to come to rookie camps, at the WJCs, but then they don't quite break through in the NHL. How many will really establish themselves as +0.5 ppg scorers in the NHL from the 2016 and 2017 drafts, outside the top 7/5?

There are trends like this from time to time. Hard to pin this one down, but it just feel like so many kids comes up and with a lot of expectations, and then its quite hard to get something done in the NHL.

 

[Ola]

Everyone is talking about picking up Nylander but we have Panarin, Z, Chytil, Buch, Kakko and hopefully Kravstov who are all talented top six caliber players who aren’t that physical. Lemieux can’t be the teams only forward with a spine. I’ve brought up Jenner before and I’m more and more in that boat every day. Strome for Jenner, straight across. Kreider for Crouse + 1st. Yeah, we lose some offense, but we get something we lack worse and the offense will improve as Kakko and hopefully Kravstov get up to NHL speed. We’re gonna lose games with or without Strome and Kreider, but at least if we add a couple guys like Jenner and Crouse our young guys won’t be learning to get pushed around and play with little heart along the way. Strome and Kreider are picking up points being in the right place with the right combo of Panarin or Z on the ice anyway. I’m fine with shipping both out tomorrow for grit and character.

Great point, and I am sure I am guilty of this myself at times, but you must careful about having the right balance and we could certainly be on our way of tilting the scale as is, not to mention going after a Nylander...

 

[Ola]

That one would hurt. On a significantly more talented team, Nylander has lower production than ADA. To be fair, I've never been a Nylander fan but even as I try to be unbiased, I just feel like he isn't enough/isn't the player I want to move ADA for.

Maybe I am being unrealistic. I dunno. I just know if that trade happened tomorrow I would be extremely disappointed in JG.

I would be excited if we got Nyls but also a bit scared for the same reason you mention. He does a lot of things really well, and is super talented in some senses, but he can also be pretty "square" on the ice. He have really added a lot of muscle, just looks like he isn't agile at all in some situations.

He was a late bloomer physically and looked like an 15 y/o when he was 18, all of a sudden he looks like this:

Not sure how optimal that is.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I hear Traktor needs a wing...

Contender, not pretender

 

[effen]

I would be excited if we got Nyls but also a bit scared for the same reason you mention. He does a lot of things really well, and is super talented in some senses, but he can also be pretty "square" on the ice. He have really added a lot of muscle, just looks like he isn't agile at all in some situations.

He was a late bloomer physically and looked like an 15 y/o when he was 18, all of a sudden he looks like this:
View attachment 293709

Not sure how optimal that is.

it's fine because that's summer shred and everyone loses weight and muscle through the season

 

[haohmaru]

Every team fans say this cliche, just like only the Rangers are responsible for players breaking their long goalless or pointless streaks.

Or, it could be truthful. Which it is this year.

 

[bobbop]

The thinking on players over picks is that you have a better understanding over who a prospect is a year or two after they were drafted. For example, there was much more confidence that Lindgren and Hajek would really be NHLers in March of 2018 than there was in June of 2016. Because of that, their value was greater than the 37 or 49 picks in the 2018 draft.

Also, you can accelerate things by getting young players who are almost ready to play in the NHL, instead of picks that you have to wait 3-4 years on.

But you have a point about being able to leverage picks into players later as well.

Based on what I have read and heard, the Lightning were far more certain that Hajek would be an NHL player than the Bruins were with Lindgren. Funny how that works.

Your point about players almost ready to play in the NHL is spot on. It's not unlike the point@Edge made about Jost...don't tell me where he was drafted, that's not my problem. What is he today?

Scouting never stops.

 

[Savant]

Yeah, but this is kind of illustrative of most kids trying to break into the league right now.

Looking at the 2016 draft, outside the top 7 only Debrincat is scoring a lot in the top 2 rounds. Many Ds are doing great, many forwards look promising, but only Debrincat of a big sample size is really hitting it off. And its kind of the same with the 2017 draft. These kids looks promising when they start to come to rookie camps, at the WJCs, but then they don't quite break through in the NHL. How many will really establish themselves as +0.5 ppg scorers in the NHL from the 2016 and 2017 drafts, outside the top 7/5?

There are trends like this from time to time. Hard to pin this one down, but it just feel like so many kids comes up and with a lot of expectations, and then its quite hard to get something done in the NHL.

I mean let’s look at DeBrincat. I thought he was a slam dunk (not that the Rangers were in position to get him. But I think he illustrates the problem with Jost. DeBrincat you knew what he was. You knew he could score and had a a specific tool that was his ticket to NHL success. Jost was a nice enough player but what was his exceptional tool? What was his calling card? What was going to keep him in the NHL? Said this earlier but Jost is a nice name with a good pedigree but he isn’t really a center, he isn’t really a winger. What is he at this level? I don’t have a use for a guy like that.

 

[Edge]

Personally I don’t really have a problem if the Rangers pursue Nylander — especially if the price does indeed include Kravtsov.

That has nothing to with Kravtsov himself, so much as it has to do with not creating balancing concerns for me.

If we weren’t terribly concerned about working Kravtsov into the roster 2 months ago, I don’t really see how Nylander taking that spot would be any different from a balance standpoint. The need for a north-south type remains, regardless of whether our second line RW is Nylander or Kravtsov or Buchnevich.

But I also don’t think someone like Nylander is the end-all, be-all either. If we don’t go that direction, I won’t lose sleep. If we do go that direction, I don’t think we’re remotely close to being done tinkering with the roster.

 

[bleedblue94]

It could be a base but we’d be adding some good value. Nurse is quite good.

41 points in 82 last year. 160+ hits, 150 blocks, averaged 23:49 a game, 6’4 220, 24 years old. 17 points in 36 this year so on pace for just about the same.

BS and Buch for Nurse and JP

Just a quick thought. Not sure on it either way

 

[Leetch3]

 

[TheBloodyNine]

On par with what our Edge has been saying for sure, though I would lower the pick or ditch it altogether to get a better prospect.

 

[Edge]

On par with what our Edge has been saying for sure, though I for sure would lower the pick or ditch it altogether to get a better prospect.

I think the Rangers would prefer step-in talent to picks, but that’s not entirely within their control.

I’m curious to see if any dark horse teams emerge for Kreider. I still think that after last year, there is an attitude among some GMs out there of, “Why not my team? Why not this year?”

 

[Alluckks]

Nylander Zib Kakko
Panarin Strome Buch
Jost Chytil Fast
Lemmy Howden Smith

Plus whatever else we might/would get in a Kreider deal? Also with whatever we do with Lias

Not bad, could use an upgrade over Buch, could eventually switch Chytil and Strome, or just replace Strome; ideally upgrade Fast but that can be done with a veteran FA

Top pairing LD would need to be found as well and would very likely be the biggest hole (it looks like it is the biggest hole right now as well)

 

[Savant]

Nylander Zib Kakko
Panarin Strome Buch
Jost Chytil Fast
Lemmy Howden Smith

Plus whatever we would get in a Kreider deal? Also with whatever we do with Lias

Not bad, could use an upgrade over Buch, could eventually switch Chytil and Strome, or just replace Strome; ideally upgrade Fast but that can be done with a veteran FA

Top pairing LD would need to be found as well and would very likely be the biggest hole (it looks like it is the biggest hole right now as well)

What is the Jost obsession on here?

 

[QJL]

What is the Jost obsession on here?

He’s one of the only expendable young NHL-ready talented centers on a team that might target Kreider. I don’t see Colorado moving him but I assume he would be a target.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I think the Rangers would prefer step-in talent to picks, but that’s not entirely within their control.

I’m curious to see if any dark horse teams emerge for Kreider. I still think that after last year, there is an attitude among some GMs out there of, “Why not my team? Why not this year?”

Of course we could always flip that first we get for Kreider in a package for a player like we did with the Jets pick.

 

[Savant]

He’s one of the only expendable young NHL-ready talented centers on a team that might target Kreider. I don’t see Colorado moving him but I assume he would be a target.

He’s not a center. Colorado certainly didn’t think so. He has never had more than 30 points in a season playing with better talent than what is on the Rangers. You are trying to pigeonhole an offer to the Rangers with a guy that was once highly thought of but the expectation is completely wrong.

 

[QJL]

He’s not a center. Colorado certainly didn’t think so. He has never had more than 30 points in a season playing with better talent than what is on the Rangers. You are trying to pigeonhole an offer to the Rangers with a guy that was once highly thought of but the expectation is completely wrong.

I do not want Jost at all. I’m not pigeonholing anything.

I wouldn’t call the mention of his name here “obsession”. I think he’s just a realistic piece in a Colorado deal. He’s played center plenty and he really hasn’t spent any time with Colorado’s top players. In his his whole career he’s never spent more than 5% of his ice time with a line combo that included Mackinnon, Rantanen, or Landeskog. He’s also 21 years old.

I still don’t want him, but I’ll defend him against what he is not.

 

[Alluckks]

What is the Jost obsession on here?

I wasn't posting the lineup I want, but rather just going with the rumors/talks/hypos that have gone on for a number of pages

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Jost/Kostin/Roslovic, former high picks with potential who most likely will be pieces but maybe more middle six than top 6 (yes Kostin is VERY young and I hate to group him with the other two). Those are the types of ready now pieces the Rangers will probably go after in a Kreider deal as we've talked about for months here.

I know Kostin is injured (don't know for how long and have searched but no news) and may not be able to immediately step in but the general idea is to have the young player acquired step in and begin developing throughout the lineup.

Another first is nice, Rangers need to swing for the fences and draft some offensive talent, or they can package their first, the first from Kreider, and maybe some combo of Buch/TDA/Hajek to move up to a top five pick. All hypothetical of course, not saying I'd like to trade anyone.

And once again I love Lundqvist but I'm a firm believer the cost controlled Georgiev for the next 4-5 years>>>>> one year of an old Lunqvist who there are no guarantees will accept a backup role.

 

[Ola]

I mean let’s look at DeBrincat. I thought he was a slam dunk (not that the Rangers were in position to get him. But I think he illustrates the problem with Jost. DeBrincat you knew what he was. You knew he could score and had a a specific tool that was his ticket to NHL success. Jost was a nice enough player but what was his exceptional tool? What was his calling card? What was going to keep him in the NHL? Said this earlier but Jost is a nice name with a good pedigree but he isn’t really a center, he isn’t really a winger. What is he at this level? I don’t have a use for a guy like that.

I agree 100%, great post!

And this has been my starting point the last years when watching undrafted kids prior to the drafts. The game is about speed and skill, BUT the kids that has a fair amount of that without really standing out in any area -- are really not having any kind of success at all in the NHL the last years.

Forward right now must just be able to separate themselves from the pack somehow. For a while it also felt like bigger forwards really struggled, but lately some guys with size have also done really well. But they are often really slim and good skaters.

 

[Mikos87]

The way I look at it- the Rangers will need to add 2 top 6 forwards. That can come internally, but more than likely it will have to come from outside the organization at this stage.

I'm also a believer of grouping forwards into pairs to start building an identity and designating roles. I do not see that level of development taking place at the moment, and will say that this is a missing element that management needs to address to rebuild a contender.

Taking chemistry and balance into account, alongside trade assets, here's how I see the forward group based on this season

xxx-Zibs-Kakko
Bread-Strome-xxx
xxx-Chytil-Buch
Lemms-Howdie-xxx

Kreider is a trade asset and reduces the top 6 forward count by 1.
Fast is a trade asset.
McKegg is a trade asset.

You have Lias & VK as your near term call-up options. Barron is a wildcard. Other than that, you do not have viable NHL forward prospects that can step in to the NHL and fill a role in the next 6 months.

I liked Lias, but if he has a questionable motor, then you move him. This is not a player who is athletically gifted, he needs to ply full effort and smarts to be effective. He will not be a good pro if he doesn't play balls out. Where is the character and compete this guy purportedly had? Where is the guy who hated losing so much that he tosses a silver medal?

If that is not who he is, then he is trade bait.

2020 Top Pick if lucky-Zibs-Kakko
Bread-Strome-xxx
VK-Chytil-Buch
Lemms-Howdie-Rodrigues

I think VK can slot in on the 3rd line. The Rangers run with 3 offensive units, with one of them being a two way line. VK, with Chytil and Buch eat 3rd pair D on mismatches ala the Brassard, Zucc and Pouliot line from the cup run.

I'm cool with Fast being re-signed. He's a good pro, but I would re-sign him as a UFA after a trade deadline deal, or bring in a guy that's in the doghouse like Rodrigues. Sign him to a cheaper two year deal at $1.5M. Quinn used to coach him, and should know the guy well.

Let's say the Rangers get lucky in the draft and get a scoring winger. That would mean that the Rangers still have to make a move for another top 6 asset.

What does that mean?

It means that you can expect a trade where a couple of prospects are going to get moved for an NHLer. The Rangers window to buy via the trade route is coming closer than some might want to think.

 

[Mikos87]

Jost and Bennett got drafted high because they dominated juniors, and interviewed very very well. These are picks where scouts go gaga over a kid that is mature among boys and works his ass off without being athletically gifted.

Picks like these are mistakes in the top 10, but great picks in the late first and 2nd.

It wasn't too long ago the Rangers picked a player in the top ten that's not to dissimilar from Jost and Bennett. One that I have growing concerns about his viability as an NHLer.

Bennett transformed his game to carve out an NHL career. Jost will have to do the same. It's just a bad yield for a top 10 pick.

 

[wafflepadsave]

I mean let’s look at DeBrincat. I thought he was a slam dunk (not that the Rangers were in position to get him. But I think he illustrates the problem with Jost. DeBrincat you knew what he was. You knew he could score and had a a specific tool that was his ticket to NHL success. Jost was a nice enough player but what was his exceptional tool? What was his calling card? What was going to keep him in the NHL? Said this earlier but Jost is a nice name with a good pedigree but he isn’t really a center, he isn’t really a winger. What is he at this level? I don’t have a use for a guy like that.

Inside- left?